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When do we experience moral perfection? #7671
04/01/01 07:55 PM
04/01/01 07:55 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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When do we experience moral perfection? Before, during or after we're born again? Please use the Bible to support your thoughts and insights. Thank you and God bless.

Re: When do we experience moral perfection? #7672
04/01/01 08:16 PM
04/01/01 08:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Paul wrote in Romans 6 - "Our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Verse 6. The tone of this entire chapter clearly depicts the life of born again believers as one free from sin.

Peter wrote - "He that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." 1 Peter 4:1,2.

Galatians 5:16 reads - "Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." John wrote - "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin." 1 John 3:9. And 2 Corinthians 5:17 says - "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

When are these promises a reality for us? When do we experience moral perfection? When do we cease from sin?

Please stay on task as you share your thoughts and feelings. It is very tempting, when discussing this subject, to rush ahead and defend post-conversion sinning and repenting. But this thread is dealing with the question - When is ceasing from known sin a reality for us? What specific conditions must exist in order for us to be in harmony the above mentioned promises?

Thank you.


Re: When do we experience moral perfection? #7673
04/04/01 07:08 PM
04/04/01 07:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Hey, is there anybody out there? I would appreciate some dialogue on this subject. I understand how busy everybody is, so I'll be patient.

God bless.


Re: When do we experience moral perfection? #7674
04/04/01 07:25 PM
04/04/01 07:25 PM
Gerry Buck  Offline
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Micah 7:18,19-
Who is a God like unto Thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their [our] sins into the depths of the sea.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but it appears from this passage, it happens when we give our sins over to him, and he makes an end of them at the last day.
Am I close on this one?


Re: When do we experience moral perfection? #7675
04/04/01 08:00 PM
04/04/01 08:00 PM
Gerry Buck  Offline
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Posts: 1,859
Benton Harbor, Mi.
Im just found this one.
Romans 8:- There is now no condemination to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

If we are walking in Christ, there is no more condemnation, we are covered with His moral perfection.

1John2:1,2- My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate withthe Father, Jesus Christ the rightous:
And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Sounds like moral perfection is an ongoing process to me.
!Thess.4:7- for God has not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

We are called to be holy, but as Paul said:

Romans:
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So, when does moral perfection become ours?

From this, I get the feeling it is only after Jesus comes back and gets us.

What do the rest of you think?


Re: When do we experience moral perfection? #7676
04/06/01 05:50 PM
04/06/01 05:50 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Gerry, thank you for engaging this study. The quotes you shared are for sure encouraging. Thank you. I also firmly believe that what Jesus does for us in heaven as our high priest is our ticket to heaven. The imputed righteousness of Christ covers a multitude of confessed and forsaken sins. Amen. Thank you, Jesus.

I also believe that when we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour He not only pardons but He also purifies us from sin. 1 John 1:7-9. So not only are we covered we are also cleansed. Justification and sanctification are simultaneous. We are justified and sanctified at the same moment. This is biblical conversion as I understand it.

Once converted we are morally perfect, though not morally mature. Like the baby Jesus we too must mature morally growing in grace. This growth does not involve gradually swapping sin for righteousness over the course of a lifetime. Rather it involves maturing from "faith to faith" not from sin to sin.

With this thought in mind I believe moral perfection is a reality at the moment of conversion. That is, none of the fruit of the Spirit is missing at rebirth. Then from that point on we must mature in the same way Jesus matured. Do you see what I mean? I'm not saying that when we're born again we are as morally mature as Jesus was as an adult. But rather we begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception.

What do you think?


Re: When do we experience moral perfection? #7677
04/07/01 06:40 PM
04/07/01 06:40 PM
Edward F Sutton  Offline
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Zanesville, OH 43701
Job hit the nail on the head, he said he wouldn't know if he was. However God called him perfect three times in Satan's face.

How refreshing that you believe that Jesus can and does perfect people through Him and in Him, this side of Heaven. That is appreciated.

However I will have to do my homework, it seems John ch-17 & 2nd Peter ch-1 & Ephesians 3:14-21 & Matthew ch's 5-7 & Colossians 1:27 jog my memory from Scripture . Then from SOP comes two passages.
*****************
"In your association with others, put yourself in their place. Enter into their feelings, their difficulties, their disappointments, their joys, and their sorrows. Identify yourself with them, and then do to them as, were you to exchange places with them, you would wish them to deal with you. This is the true rule of honesty. It is another expression of the law. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Matthew 22:39. And it is the substance of the teaching of the prophets. It is a principle of heaven, and will be developed in all who are fitted for its holy companionship. {MB 134.3}

The golden rule is the principle of true courtesy, and its truest illustration is seen in the life and character of Jesus. Oh, what rays of softness and beauty shone forth in the daily life of our Saviour! What sweetness flowed from His very presence! The same spirit will be revealed in His children. Those with whom Christ dwells will be surrounded with a divine atmosphere. Their white robes of purity will be fragrant with perfume from the garden of the Lord. Their faces will reflect light from His, brightening the path for stumbling and weary feet. {MB 135.1}

No man who has the true ideal of what constitutes a perfect character will fail to manifest the sympathy and tenderness of Christ. The influence of grace is to soften the heart, to refine and purify the feelings, giving a heaven-born delicacy and sense of propriety. {MB 135.2}

But there is a yet deeper significance to the golden rule. Everyone who has been made a steward of the manifold grace of God is called upon to impart to souls in ignorance and darkness, even as, were he in their place, he would desire them to impart to him. The apostle Paul said, "I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise." Romans 1:14. By all that you have known of the love of God, by all that you have received of the rich gifts of His grace above the most benighted and degraded soul upon the earth are you in debt to that soul to impart these gifts unto him{MB 135.3}

So also with the gifts and blessings of this life: whatever you may possess above your fellows places you in debt, to that degree, to all who are less favored. Have we wealth, or even the comforts of life, then we are under the most solemn obligation to care for the suffering sick, the widow, and the fatherless exactly as we would desire them to care for us were our condition and theirs to be reversed. {MB 136.1}

The golden rule teaches, by implication, the same truth which is taught elsewhere in the Sermon on the Mount, that "with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." That which we do to others, whether it be good or evil, will surely react upon ourselves, in blessing or in cursing. Whatever we give, we shall receive again. The earthly blessings which we impart to others may be, and often are, repaid in kind. What we give does, in time of need, often come back to us in fourfold measure in the coin of the realm. But, besides this, all gifts are repaid, even in this life, in the fuller inflowing of His love, which is the sum of all heaven's glory and its treasure. And evil imparted also returns again. Everyone who has been free to condemn or discourage, will in his own experience be brought over the ground where he has caused others to pass; he will feel what they have suffered because of his want of sympathy and tenderness. {MB 136.2}

It is the love of God toward us that has decreed this. He would lead us to abhor our own hardness of heart and to open our hearts to let Jesus abide in them. And thus, out of evil, good is brought, and what appeared a curse becomes a blessing. {MB 136.3}

The standard of the golden rule is the true standard of Christianity; anything short of it is a deception. A religion that leads men to place a low estimate upon human beings, whom Christ has esteemed of such value as to give Himself for them; a religion that would lead us to be careless of human needs, sufferings, or rights, is a spurious religion. In slighting the claims of the poor, the suffering, and the sinful, we are proving ourselves traitors to Christ. It is because men take upon themselves the name of Christ, while in life they deny His character, that Christianity has so little power in the world. The name of the Lord is blasphemed because of these things. {MB 136.4}

Of the apostolic church, in those bright days when the glory of the risen Christ shone upon them, it is written that no man said "that aught of the things which he possessed was his own." "Neither was there any among them that lacked." "And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all." "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." Acts 4:32, 34, 33; 2:46, 47. {MB 137.1}

Search heaven and earth, and there is no truth revealed more powerful than that which is made manifest in works of mercy to those who need our sympathy and aid. This is the truth as it is in Jesus. When those who profess the name of Christ shall practice the principles of the golden rule, the same power will attend the gospel as in apostolic times. {MB 137.2}

*********************

The sanctification of the soul by the working of the Holy Spirit is the implanting of Christ's nature in humanity. Gospel religion is Christ in the life--a living, active principle. It is the grace of Christ revealed in character and wrought out in good works. The principles of the gospel cannot be disconnected from any department of practical life. Every line of Christian experience and labor is to be a representation of the life of Christ. {COL 384.1}

Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within--when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart and is revealed in the countenance. {COL 384.2}

It is not possible for the heart in which Christ abides to be destitute of love. If we love God because He first loved us, we shall love all for whom Christ died. We cannot come in touch with divinity without coming in touch with humanity; for in Him who sits upon the throne of the universe, divinity and humanity are combined. Connected with Christ, we are connected with our fellow men by the golden links of the chain of love. Then the pity and compassion of Christ will be manifest in our life. We shall not wait to have the needy and unfortunate brought to us. We shall not need to be entreated to feel for the woes of others. It will be as natural for us to minister to the needy and suffering as it was for Christ to go about doing good. {COL 384.3}

Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God's Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The "Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. {COL 385.1}

My understanding of moral perfection & sanctification, is still unfolding as I combine studying and practicing. Which everone lags delays the other & the spiritual eyesight suffers.

At this point the best I understand perfection is this, having as much of Jesus and His teachings and mission and purposes, in you as you can hold as you follow Him on His journeys in your circumstances to help and bless others in what He shows they presently need.


You become as or more active than a liberal, as or more Biblically correct than a conservative, and as filled with first love 001-002-003.....as a new convert. Because each day that's what you are - a new convert, liberal in your help and blessings and active in your concerns and solid in your Bible study; so you can give fresh bread to the hungrey.

Sanctification - the word it's self seems like a continual process. It seems to refer to coming into harmony with Jesus in one sense. In that look at it, sanctification will never end. There is never an end to learning about God, even in Heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

(This abstaining is a continual spiritual/physical process or the sanctification or dedication here spoke of to God is exchanged for the old ways.)

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

(Sabbath & it's gift of this facet of sanctification lasts as long as Sabbath does, for the Redeemed disciple on Earth streight up into Heaven and through eternity.

Isaiah 29:23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

(That will last eternally & be progressive too.)

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
(eternal in nature here too. There fore I personally conclude that any sanctifying of me, here on Earth is done as quick as needed{when I am not expected to co-operate in a thing}.

It is done at the rate I will cooperate at, when it is a partnership between God & my humanity.

Sanctification is built to take root on Earth in the protecting limits of His revealed will, but blossom & grow in Heaven eternally in the safety of the Kingdom where His will is unchallenged and is rejoiced in.

As I said before an interesting call to study time. But what about the concept of perfection & sanctification made practical ??

In other words, What are the promises regarding them & how do we claim them & follow through ? For example, one of my metaphoric spiritual ancestors. Peter

When Peter was drowning after walking on the water & doubting Jesus, he cried for help & took the hands offered, and didn't brag when he dripped back into the boat. I guess Peter found out that humility edifies "Lambs"(no record of Jesus getting wet), but pride changes disciples into "drowned rats".

While he took the practical help, I think he would have been less embarassed to have used the practical prevention.

Wish I was not so soggy so often.


Sanctified - seems like a setting something apart for a specific use, even a holy use. Like the furniture of the temple, or ratifying someone as His disciple before His father's throne. A time or condition dated occurance.

Also a partnership carried out by faith between a disciple & Jesus.

Exodus 29:43 And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:


------------------
Edward F Sutton


Re: When do we experience moral perfection? #7678
04/08/01 03:04 AM
04/08/01 03:04 AM
Gerry Buck  Offline
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Benton Harbor, Mi.
uh, brother Ed, aren't sermons supposed to be posted in another room?

All good points, and will make for interesting discussion and study.
Thank you.


Re: When do we experience moral perfection? #7679
04/08/01 05:51 AM
04/08/01 05:51 AM
Edward F Sutton  Offline
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Posts: 2,428
Zanesville, OH 43701
But this was only a short post considering the topic

------------------
Edward F Sutton


Re: When do we experience moral perfection? #7680
04/17/01 10:12 PM
04/17/01 10:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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I'm back. Was away on business for awhile. Edward and Gerry, good thoughts, guys. Thank you. Here's a few more questions.

When we're born again we receive the sinless seed of the new man. Eph 4:24 and 1 Peter 1:23 and 1 John 3:9. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6. "The Spirit is life because of righteousness." Rom 8:10.

"Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." Gal 5:16. Which moral attributes or fruit of the Spirit are missing at the moment we receive the seed of the new man? In what way are we morally imperfect? Does growth in grace (sanctification) involve becoming less and less morally sinful?


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