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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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Re: Lesson Study #3 - Daniel 2
#76978
07/09/06 02:37 PM
07/09/06 02:37 PM
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From Sabbath afternoon's intro I quote the following: Quote:
Here was this book, written in the sixth century B.C., laying out the history of the world from Daniel's time through ours, and even beyond. It's hard to see how any rational person, after studying Daniel 2, could come away unimpressed by the prophecy and the God who has revealed Himself in it. In fact, so powerful is Daniel 2 (as well as other parts of the book) as a witness for the Christian faith that, in early centuries of the church, opponents already argued that Daniel was written in the middle of the second century B.C., after the events it talked about, a view still held by many today. This theory, though, is not only unsubstantiated but doesn't explain how the chapter could predict events long centuries beyond the supposed second-century B.C. date of its composition.
How a person can remain an atheist after reading the book of Daniel is beyond my understanding!
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Re: Lesson Study #3 - Daniel 2
#76980
07/11/06 02:02 AM
07/11/06 02:02 AM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2013
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Posts: 847
USA
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Hi, Daryl and all,
I am especially interested in this quarter's lesson for several reasons. I know the book of Daniel is so important, the Gospel is of the utmost importance, and the judgment is so misunderstood by most people. Also, for the first time ever, I am attempting to teach the adult SS lesson. The Juniors and I spent 6 months in the book of Daniel, and I felt I understood it better than ever before. But, I imagine it will be a bit different teaching adults.
I cannot answer your question yet, Daryl, and will be looking to see what others on here have for an answer. I have a question, which is farther on in the lesson...but I have heard this discussed many times with no conclusion...
In Daniel 2:34,35 exactly what is the "stone cut out without hands...that smote the image, became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth" Is it Jesus Himself, (called the cornerstone) is it His coming into His kingdom on earth, is it His kingdom? If so, what makes up His kingdom? I am reading also from PK,p499, and would appreciate any comment. I do realize it is when Jesus comes and the kingdoms of the world are destroyed. Does anyone else have any inspired Word on this?
Dora
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Re: Lesson Study #3 - Daniel 2
#76982
07/12/06 01:09 AM
07/12/06 01:09 AM
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From Tuesday's study: Quote:
Babylon is compared to a metal, Media-Persia is compared to a metal, and Greece is compared to a metal. In contrast, in verses 33, 34 the iron that comes up after Greece (representing Rome) stays there until the stone cut out "without hands" (vs. 34) destroys everything. The iron that arises after Greece remains until the end, though in the feet it becomes mixed with clay. In the interpretation of that part of the vision, the metal representing the fourth kingdom, iron, remains until the end, as well, though it's depicted as mixed with miry clay (vss. 40-44). The point is unmistakable: The fourth kingdom, the fourth power, arises after Greece and remains until the end, even though it is manifested in a different form. In Daniel, the fourth power, the power rising after Greece, stays the same power (for it's iron all the way through, unlike the previous powers whose metal disappeared when a whole new empire arose), though at some point it changed form. Thus, it's Rome from the time of Greece until the end of the world. Amazingly enough, Rome still exists today as a worldwide power, though its form is radically different from when it first arose after Greece.
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Many centuries ago, one of England's greatest political thinkers wrote: "If a man considers the origin of this great ecclesiastical dominion, he will easily perceive that the papacy is no other than the ghost of the deceased Roman empire, sitting crowned on the grave thereof."—Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. How does that quote help us understand what Daniel 2 teaches about the Roman Empire?
I find this most interesting and very clearly stated.
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Re: Lesson Study #3 - Daniel 2
#76988
07/14/06 06:16 AM
07/14/06 06:16 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 628
New York
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Quote:
From Wednesday's study:
Quote:
If we were to chart the kingdoms depicted, and specifically named, in Daniel, the outline would look like this:
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Babylon (Dan. 2:37, 38)
Media-Persia (Dan. 8:20)
Greece (Dan. 8:21)
Fourth kingdom
God's eternal kingdom (Dan. 2:44)
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Read Daniel's own interpretation of the vision (Dan. 2:37-45). Do you see anything there indicating that these prophecies can have different meanings in different times? Defend your answer.
Does anybody reading this see anything there indicating that these prophecies can have different meanings in different times? As it says, prepare to defend your answer.
It is interesting how the lesson argues that this is the only interpetation, but the teachers quartery suggests that there was a local application as well, and even this question allows for the discussion. Sadly we are so focused on how the prophecy WAS fulfilled that we do not see how it COULD HAVE BEEN FULFILLED had God's people been faithful.
Once again I appeal to study the chapters "Destroyed for Lack of Knowlege" in Prophets and Kings and "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophey" in the commentary. We are NOT putting in the potential for these two excellent wirtings to work and thus floundering on many other parts of the Bible (although I believe we are correct in Daniel 2).
The actual word in Daniel is always in the ancient world translated as individual kings, it is only in Daniel 2 where translaters give it a feeling of kingdoms and Bible dictionaries read back into the word the possibility of Kingdoms due to circular reasoning on how Daniel 2 must mean kingdoms, therefore this word that means only individual kings in all it's other use inside and outside of scripture must also include the possibility of kingdoms.
A principle that I was taught in college Bible classes that I have always found useful is that every text has a local application, but can be re-applied through historical analogy. From seeing what could have happened, we can get a much clearer understanding of what will happen and recognize (like we do in Daniel 2) how it actually becomes fulfilled.
The Old Testament up to Daniel 9 (with transition chapters of Daniel 7 and 8) sees the exile as THE LAST DAYS!!! (See Deuteronomy 4). The consept of the exile brought to the old testament mind the same picture as the Sunday Law brings to the typical Adventist mind.
Daniel 2 talks about 4 KINGS Where Nebuchadnezzar is THE FIRST KING; THE HEAD OF GOLD. and the book of Daniel talks about 4 and exactly 4 kings: Nebchadnezzar, Belshasher (sorry about the spelling) Darius, Cyrus.
Daniel 2 tells what was suposed to happen over the exile. Daniel 7 begins to expand from individula kings to kingdoms, which opens the door to the possibility that the exile might not be the last days but Daniel 7 can be interpeted in a way where it probaby could be. Daniel 8 again is re-applying Daniel 2 from kings to kingdoms, with Greece playing a larger role. Daniel 8 was given about 2300 litteral days from the end of Babylon, but did not say 2300 days, but 2300 evenings-morning, or 2300 cycles, which Daniel would have understood as days, months, half years or whole years (and Exekiel would have added 2300 sabbatical year cycles; but Daniel was based more on Deuteronomy and thus would have stoped with years)thus giving this man who was liking like the typical adventist after the Sunday Law to wonder what was going on, was the world about to end or not...
Daniel 9-12 reapplys the 2300 cycles to the decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem and tells that the exile will not be the last days, so now what is Israel suposed to do.
Now getting back to the historical ananlogy and although it could have been fulfilled back in Daniel's day, looking at how it came around and was fulfilled:
Have to go now, I'll come back to look at the 7 parts of Daniel 2
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Re: Lesson Study #3 - Daniel 2
#76992
07/23/06 05:54 AM
07/23/06 05:54 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
Senior Member
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Posts: 628
New York
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I've been working on two posts for more information (one short and one more detail) but as we are getting farther from the lesson on Daniel 2 I fear people being no longer interested to return to this thread.
To answer the question about conditionality in this prophecy, we need to remember who Daniel is. He is a royal figure, who's ansestery was David and had promises that sounded unconditional, but his trip to Babylon taught him that there were conditions implied. Also he was a student of the great Deuteronomist Theologian, Jeremiah. Deuteronomy is full of conditions and Daniel is based on Deuteronomy, therefore the conditions are implied. The idea of conditions are so central to the Deuteronomic school, Daniel may as well attend a church that reads on the front "The Conditional-Adventist church" and to question the conditionality of the prophecy would be like questioning the importance of Sabbath to Seventh-day Adventists because the heard a sermon by HMS Richards that was on a different topic and did not mention the Sabbath on his broadcast that week.
Deuteronomy predicts that the exile was to be THE LAST DAYS!!! The exile to Daniel brought about the same mental picture that the idea of the Sunday Law brings to us. Therefore I have to dissagree with Mountain Man, I also can not unify his comments with Matthew 24:14, as well as the chapters "Destroyed for lack of knowlege" from Prophets and Kings and "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" from the commentary.
Let's not forget Jesus in Matthew 24 gave all sorts of events, but says that THE SIGN of the second coming is "When the gospel is spread to all the world, then shall the end come." The exile could have been the last days. The second coming could have occured in 70 AD. The message of Revelation is that the church lost it's first love and that it needed to "Preach again!" the theam of Revelation is "Preach again!" and if you study the life of the Roman Emperor Domination, who exiled John to Patmos, you would be amazed how much he sounded like the little horn of Daniel 7. The pope is not the only one this fits. We find in these prophecys a oneness of opposits: On the one hand God is in complete control, and can in such uncany detail let us know what we are going to see in history, yet it is events that would happen no matter if history ends up being long or short. Thus God give us freedom of choice to hasten his coming.
In the Old Testament the exile was suposed to end by a second great exodus lead by the messiah. Jesus could have been born and durring the 70 years of exile... however we see that he was born when the world was in a perfect condition for his birth, dispite Israel being offered to have Jesus be born durring the exile, he ended up coming in the fullness of time. So with the prophecys of the second coming, God knows when the perfect time will be, but gives each generation the chance to either be the last generation, or to prepare for their children or at most their grandchildren to be the last generation.
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