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Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - 70 Weeks
#77970
08/09/06 06:48 PM
08/09/06 06:48 PM
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An explanation by William H. Shea: The return of the Jews under Ezra is described in chapters 7 and 8 but their rebuilding of the city is described in chapter 4. Why are things out of order like this? It should be pointed out here that there is more than one way to organize a book, biblical or otherwise, and the author does not always have to subscribe to the strictly chronological approach. He might also follow a topical approach. And that is what has happened here. There is a parenthesis here between Ezra 4:5 and 4:24-5:1. The parenthesis continues its own recital along chronological lines but the topic or subtopic being opposition to the Jews. That opposition is cited first for the reign of Cyrus in Ezra 4:1-5, then for the reign of Ahasuerus (or Xerxes) Ezra 4:6, then for the reign of Artaxerxes in Ezra 4:7-23. Then with Ezra 4:24 the narrative returns to the time of Darius, between the times of Cyrus and Ahasuerus. The topic treated in this subsection (Ezra 4) is opposition to the Jews. The opposition is in the first case about building the temple (time of Cyrus), then a more general opposition (time of Xerxes), and finally an opposition about building the city of Jerusalem (time of Artaxerxes). Fensham has given a nice evaluation of this problem in his statement that, In spite of this [the chronological order of Persian kings in chapter 4], Rudolph presumes that the Chronicler had no idea of the historical sequence of the Persian kings and mentioned typical names which are accidentally correct chronologically. Rudolph arrives at this conclusion because of the sudden switch to Darius in 4:24. . . . Thus it is understandable that modern scholars, reasoning from their own logic, should regard the historical reliability of this chapter with suspicion. But there is another kind of perfectly legitimate logic to the reasoning of the author of this chapter: he is referring in this chapter in chronological order to the hindrances placed in the way of Jews to rebuild the temple and the wall of Jerusalem. When he discussed the problems of the building of the temple in 4:1-5, it reminded him of later similar troubles with the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem, and so 4:6-23 has been inserted, almost parenthetically, before the argument of the building of the temple has again been taken up in 4:24ff. (already noted by C. F. Keil in the last century).[8] Thus there is a perfectly good explanation as to why the decree and the return are described in chapters 7 and 8 but the rebuilding undertaken by the very same people who returned in these chapters is described in chapter 4. There is no conflict. The chapter arrangement merely reflects the author's decision to treat his materials in a topical rather than in a strictly chronological manner. http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Whendid70WksofDan9begin.htm
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - 70 Weeks
#77971
08/10/06 03:09 AM
08/10/06 03:09 AM
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I looked at both today's study (Wednesday) and tomorrow's study (Thursday).
Thursday's study is titled 457 B.C.
I found an interesting comment in Thursday's study pertaining to Wednesday's study:
Quote:
The book of Ezra is not in chronological order, so the events in Ezra 4 came later than what was in chapter 7. And though nothing in this decree specifically talks about rebuilding the city, it was obviously understood to entail that, because, according to what we read yesterday, that's exactly what the Jews were doing. Both they and their enemies understood that the decree, issued by Artaxerxes in his seventh year, by which the Jews "which came up from thee to us" (Ezra 4:12), must have included the command "to restore and to build Jerusalem." This is even more obvious because nothing in their letter expressed any idea that rebuilding of the city by the Jews was somehow in contradiction with the decree of the king.
I am using an It Is Written Heritage Edition KJV Bible. It shows at the beginning of each chapter the date the events of the chapter took place. In Ezra 4 it shows 536 B.C. and in Ezra 7 it shows 457 B.C. The It Is Written Bible Heritage Edition people, in doing this, claims that Ezra 4 and 7 are in chronological order.
Who am I to believe? The writer of the quarterly, or the ones who put the IIW Heritage Edition Bible together?
If it is in chronological order, then how to we explain Ezra 4 in comparison to Ezra 7?
I would trust the Heritage Bible before the author of the quarterly. The Heritage Bible corresponds with my 1954 World Bible. Also if you read the book by U. Smith Thoughts critical and practical on the Book of Daniel, written in 1873 pages 232-238 primarily page 238, William Millers study guides on the book of Daniel, and the charts “ Chronological Chart of the Book Daniel” 1843 you will see Ezra 7 in about the middle top of the chart showing 457 with Ezra chapter 7. Also the Brother James White chart of 1850 has the same date and text. You may well find the same date and text in S. N Haskell’s book on Daniel.
It appears at times that I am not the only one who has questions in this quarterly.
It is all in the Charts, and we know what Sister White said about that we are without chart and compass.
Peace and Grace David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - 70 Weeks
#77973
08/10/06 02:15 PM
08/10/06 02:15 PM
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Aaah, David, we're all agreed that Ezra 7 is dated to 457BC. It'd be disturbing if our earliest literature didn't hold this position unanimously!!...
What about Ezra 4 and its dating???...
sorry I left this out when I copied it frfom my word doc.
Chapter 4 of is dated as being between 535-522 BC. This is well before chapter 7 by at least 65 years.
Has anyone noticed the word "transgression from verse 24?
“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”
This word actually comes from another word, which means, “ apostatize”. What does the word apostatize mean? The 1919 Webster’s has it this way “to renounce ones faith” So the children of God renounced their faith, what was handed down from their fathers from generation to generation? They renounced that which God had given them; they had turned unto strange gods and strange doctrines. God gave them an allotted amount of time to what?
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - 70 Weeks
#77975
08/10/06 07:18 PM
08/10/06 07:18 PM
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Take, for example, 538 B.C. Applying the day-year principle to the 69 weeks (483 years) would bring "the Messiah the Prince," Jesus, to 55 B.C., an impossible date for Jesus.
The same with another common date, 520 B.C. That starting date would bring Jesus to about 37 B.C., an impossible conclusion.
Finally, the only other common date is 444 B.C., which, if used, would place the beginning of Jesus' ministry about A.D. 39 or 40 and His death sometime in the early A.D. 40s. And though that's much closer than the other two options, New Testament scholars know that those dates don't work for Jesus."
This line of reasoning assumes that the prophecy revolves around Jesus of Nazareth. Is there a way to independently show that the prophecy starts at 457? So, rather than Jesus proving the prophecy, it goes in the other direction?
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - 70 Weeks
#77976
08/10/06 09:14 PM
08/10/06 09:14 PM
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If chapter 4 is truly dated after chapter 7, then the King changed his decree to rebuild the city. For in chapter 4 verse 21 in the kings reply to the “father’s”, he states; “Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me.” The “fathers” had sent the king a letter in which the king was told that they were in the process of rebuilding the city.
We know that chapter 7 is dated in 457 B C, with the decree from the king to rebuild the city to Ezra. So here we have the decree to rebuild some years after the “fathers” had asked to rebuild and some people apparently had begun to rebuild the city without the decree to do so.
If chapter 4 comes some time after chapter 7 and it is an order from the king to stop work on the city, then is the date 457 correct? If so, and chapter 4 is a later date than chapter 7(457) then what is the date they started to rebuild the city? And will it still fit with the timeline of Christ?
I do not believe it so. In chapter 4 there is no decree from the king to rebuild the city, only an order to stop the unauthorized building of the city. Some thirteen or so years later Nehemiah also went by order of the king to the city although there is no decree to him to rebuild the city, for it was already being rebuilt, with the Temple of God being built first.
Peace and Grace David
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - 70 Weeks
#77978
08/10/06 09:53 PM
08/10/06 09:53 PM
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Quote:
showing that a decree went out and that also there was a rebuilding just after that date
Bro David,
I've thought of that, but was not satisfied. The text starts the countdown "from the going forth of the commandment." This tells me that the decree starts the clock, regardless of any actual rebuilding taking place.
What if it took the Jews 2 years to start rebuilding in earnest? Does that push the start by 2 years? Or do we start counting from the decree, as long as some rebuilding happened after the decree?
What I'm looking for is something very concrete, to remove the "fudge factor" in the calculations. This prophecy impacts our understanding of the start of the Investigative Judgment, so I would like it to be on very solid footing. So far, I haven't yet found footing solid enough for me to take to hardened skeptics.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - 70 Weeks
#77979
08/10/06 10:05 PM
08/10/06 10:05 PM
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the 70 weeks is to be "cut off" from the 2,300 days.
How do we know where to cut it off? The beginning, middle, or end? IOW, does the 70 weeks start the 2300 days, end it, or is it "floating around" inside?
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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