Sis Rosangela,

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The beginning point of the 70 weeks is the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem. This can only be either in the 5th century B.C. or in the 20th century A.D.

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I agree. But for completeness, I would expand that to include the 539 BC decree.

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Beginning in the 5th century B.C., the 70 weeks (490 years) would take us to the first century A.D.; 2300 years back would take us to the 23d century B.C. - too early for the vision of the 2300 days, which begins at the time of the ram, Media-Persia (Dan. 8:3, 20) ; 6th to 4th century B.C.

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How do we know that Dan 8:14 begins with the ram? I don't know of any argument for this, except the fact that the vision of Daniel 8 starts with the ram.

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Beginning with the 20th century A.D. (the second time Jerusalem was rebuilt), 70 weeks (490 years) would take us to the 25th century A.D. ; we would still have four centuries until the coming of the Messiah and the cleansing of the sanctuary.

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What argument can we make against this possibility? There are people still waiting for the Messiah, aren't there?

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John Nevins Andrews... "Under the Necessity of Choosing", RH, November 8, 1853.

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Thanks. I'll try to find that.

Quote from Rosangela “Beginning with the 20th century A.D. (the second time Jerusalem was rebuilt), 70 weeks (490 years) would take us to the 25th century A.D. ; we would still have four centuries until the coming of the Messiah and the cleansing of the sanctuary.”

Question by asygo “What argument can we make against this possibility? There are people still waiting for the Messiah, aren't there?”

Remark

The problem I see here is that the rest of the prophecy cannot be fulfilled with the date of the 20th century as the beginning time. For Christ has died for our sins already. Is He do come back and do it all over again? Are the Jews yet again to deny Christ as they have already done?

If the possibility exists that it is the 20th century for the fulfillment of this prophecy then the children of Israel have had more than 70 weeks / 490 years to repent from their sins from the point of their captivity into Babylon, which the Bible has laid out for us in very simple terms. The captivity that the children of Israel went into because they had turned from God is told about in the Bible and it is this captivity in, which they were to come out of as foretold in the scriptures.

Also where was the decree to restore the city given in the 20th century?

Peace and Grace
David

Quote "The beginning point of the 70 weeks is the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem. This can only be either in the 5th century B.C. or in the 20th century A.D."


Question by asygo “I agree. But for completeness, I would expand that to include the 539 BC decree.”

Remark

How could the date 539 BC be included into the 70-week prophecy? While, yes some of the “father’s” went to rebuild the city (Ezra 4) and they went by a decree from prior to their rebuilding the city we also know that the king that was in power at the time stopped them in their rebuilding efforts. Only later to allow Ezra to go with not only a decree but also any and all funds and supplies that he requested.
Here again, this or any other date outside of the 457 BC date will, dismantle the rest of the 70-week prophecy. It appears to me that Christ is the center focus of this part of the prophecy. We know when He lived and when He died. So if these dates do not coincide with His ministry and death then the date being used must be in error.

Peace and Grace
David

Here are a few of Bible the expositors that have written about the 9th Chapter of Daniel concerning the date, length and ending etc.

Sargls d’Aberge 7th century, Daniel 9 the 70 weeks he wrote that the 69 weeks was to Christ.

If it is to the time of Christ when would that have been,

Nikolaus Selnecker 1579, 70 weeks is the year of Artax.

Georg Nigrinus 1570, 70 weeks where from 457 BC-34 AD

John Tillnghast 1655, ended in 34 AD

Thomas Beverly 1684, years to Christ

Sir Isaac Newton 1727, 457 BC 34 AD

Berlenberg Bible 1743, Years to Christ

Johann Al. Bengel 1740, Years to Christ

Athansius 373 AD, to the Cross

J Ddavenportt 1653, Years to the cross

Mason Arch D.D. 1820, William Cuningham 1813, The Christian Observer 1810, C. C. the Jewish Expositor 1820, John Fry 1822, Edward Cooper 1825, Ph. Homan (the M. Watch) 1829, Ed N. Hoare 1830, Louis Gaussen 1839, Matthew Habershon 1834, William Miller 1836, (and the list goes on) wrote and taught that the beginning for the 70-week time prophecy began in 457 BC.

Also here is a list of those who wrote and said that was from the decree from Arta. To Ezra; J.A.B. Christian observer, 1810, Mason Arch D.D. 1820, C. C. the Jewish Expositor 1820, Jno. A. Brown 1823, Alphonse Nicole M.F 1823, Ph. Homan (the M. Watch) 1829, Watchman of the Night 1833, William Miller 1836.

Where did they get their information from to form the dates and conclusions that they held?

You may be correct that it is impossible to set the date at 457 BC. That is if we use the modern history books and such. If we still had the old history books I have no doubt that things would read somewhat different than they do today. Even the history books that I used some 30 plus years back are not the same as those of today, for the history books of today are changing things that were truths back then. Today’s learned people now count them as error and this is shown from the “new” history books.

Is not the Bible a history book that has been proven to be accurate?

2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”

Peace and Grace
David

While there are other dates suggested, a large number of scholars from all schools, liberal, conservative, moderate, higher criticism, lower criticisism, minimalists and maxamalists, modernists, fundamentalist and moderates, preterists, historisists, and futurists, have a large support for the decree of Ezra 7 to be in 457 BC, and some of these even date it to the day of Atonement 457 BC.

One excellent scholar who had held other dates but then settled on 457 BC is Frank Moore Cross.

There is much more modern support for dating Ezra 7 to 457 BC than I am sensing from the posts on this thread. Let's not be paronoid thinking that we hold this view and everyone else is against us. I'm sorry but we have a lot of support and agreement on this topic.

We have long given up Miller's reason for starting with 457 BC as not mesuring up to further Biblical knowlege, but it appears that he did end up with the correct date.

Another piece of evidence is how the book of John starts Jesus' ministry with John the Babtist (who does not baptize Jesus in the book of John) saying "Behold the lamb of God who scapegoats the sins of the world" (more commonly translated "...who taketh away the sins of the world") having Jesus' ministry inagurated on the day of atonment with a death 3 and a half years latter. John seems to have tied Jesus' ministry to Daniel 9.

Kevin,

Some uncertainties remain for lack of detailed information on the transition period from Xerxes to Artaxerxes, which force any biblical scholar to make some reasonable assumptions only. It seems of little profit to enlist the testimony of writers in favor of 458 or 457, because many of them have not delved into this subject and are only quoting their peers or making biased statements. The problem is simple: lack of documentation - and what is not documented must be assumed. However, it is important to note that there isn't any document which could invalidate our position. Besides, the defense of the year 457 can be assisted by the analysis of the chronological data given by Ezra and by astronomically determining the day of the week. For example, the Bible informs us that they left Babylon on Nisan 1. In 458 B.C. Nisan 1 corresponds to April 7/8 sunset to sunset, which is Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. Ezra wouldn't have left Babylon on a Sabbath day. But such a problem with the Sabbath does not exist if the year is 457 B.C.
Further details about the complexity of the subject can be read in Juarez Oliveira's book.

http://www.setentasemanas.com/

In "Downloads" go to "Click to expand the FTP window here". Then right-click the link "BOOK Juarez1. pdf" and select "Save Target As...".

Actually there are two independent documents, the Elephantine Papari from Egypt and the Samarian Papari both document the decree and place it with what we would consider the fall of 457 BC. Dr. Cross is one who has studied into it deeply, as well as with in our own church Lynn Harper Wood and Dr. Thiele.