We are having a good discussion in Lesson #7.

Now it is time to begin discussion on Lesson #8, which is really a carry over, a continuation, and an expansion of the discussion in Lesson #7.

Here is the direct link to Lesson Study #8:

http://www.ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/06c/less08.html

Sabbath afternoon's study says, "So far, we've seen that Daniel 8 ended with Daniel needing more explanation about the 2,300 days. Daniel 9 provides that explanation. Gabriel, the same angel interpreter in Daniel 8, points him directly back to the mareh of Daniel 8, the only part of the vision that he didn't understand. Gabriel immediately gives him another time prophecy, the 70 weeks, which is "cut off," obviously from the larger time prophecy of the 2,300 days.
Unlike the 2,300 days, which doesn't mention a specific starting point, Daniel 9 does have one: the "commandment to restore and build Jerusalem," which we saw last week was issued in 457 B.C.

Meanwhile, 69 of the 70 weeks of this prophecy reach to "the Messiah the Prince," Jesus. Thus, Jesus Himself forms the center of this prophecy; He's the foundation, the focal point of the 70 weeks. It all rests on Jesus, "the chief corner stone" (Eph. 2:20)."

My question from the discussion in the Lesson #7 topic is are we satisfied that the correct starting date is 457 B.C.???

I see no other date that would fit as the 457 date fits.
If the date 457 is altered even by 1 year then what happens to the prophecy about Christ and the known dates of His coming into His ministry and His death and the death of Steven 3.5 years after the Death of Christ and at Steven’s death the Jewish leaders also rejected that Christ was the Messiah and His teachings.

If all these dates are correct then the 457 has to be correct also.

There is the 2520 prophecy that also shows that the starting date for the 2300-day prophecy is 457 BC.

Peace and Grace
David

What's the 2520 prophecy? And how does it establish 457BC?

The 2520 is the oldest time line in the Bible.
The founders taught the 2520 time line and it is on the old charts.

It can establish the beginning date of the 2300-day prophecy.

While there is not much to this time line when compared to the 2300-day it is interesting in and of its self. It ends also in 1843/44 along with the 2450 and the 2300-prophecies.

Do you have either the 1843/44 chart of Miller or the1850 chart by Bro. James White?

Peace and Grace
David

Bro David,

I don't have the charts you're referring to. Can you give me a brief outline of what the 2520 prophecy is, and how it establishes 457BC and 1844AD? Thanks.

Yes give me a day or two to put it in writting. I do not have it written out so I cannot copy and paste it tonight. I am also startting a new job tommorrow and will be kind of busy the next couple of days.

Peace and Grace
David

I do not know if I'm thinking of the same topic, but years ago in College and Seminary, when studying about the studies of Lynn Harper Wood and Dr. Thiele it was briefly mentined in class that there was a time prophecy that Miller used that brought him to 457 BC, and while further study has shown that he did indeed get the right date, it was pointed out (and I have not studied into this) that what he used did not hold up to further Biblical studies of Seventh-day Adventist leaders and theologians as we continued in the 1800s and 1900s and did not become a part of Seventh-day Adventism as we developed into a denomination. That we keep 457 because of the evidence for that date, but that we have long given up Miller's reason for picking that date.

Wouldn't there also be ancient historical records of this decree that would help establish this start date of 457 BC?

Let us move on to the end date, and the other significant dates in between.

What are the significant dates on the other end, and what happened then?

This week's study presents another longer prophecy, the 2300 day/year prophecy.

Using Daniel 9:24 (quoted below), both last week's and this week's study says that the 70 week/490 year prophecy was cut off from the longer 2300 day/year one of Daniel 8:13-14 (also quoted below).

Quote:

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Quote:

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Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined {cut off} upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

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Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spoke, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

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How do we get from Daniel 9:24 that it is cut off from that of Daniel 8:13-14?

Daryl,

Chapter 8 ends thus: “‘The vision of the evenings and the mornings which has been told is true; but seal up the vision, for it pertains to many days hence.’ And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days; then I rose and went about the king's business; but I was appalled by the vision and did not understand it.”
Then comes chapter 9, and when the angel arrives, he says, “‘O Daniel, I have now come out to give you wisdom and understanding. At the beginning of your supplications a word went forth, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the word and understand the vision. Seventy weeks are decreed [cut off] concerning your people...’” (verses 22-24).
The angel tells Daniel to understand the vision, but no vision followed, just an explanation; therefore, the vision referred to can only be the vision of chapter 8, “the vision of the evenings and the mornings”, which Daniel had not understood.

From the word study in Thursdays section last week it is clear that the message from Gabriel in Dan 9 is an explanation about the time period of the previous chapter. The link isn't numbers themselves but the "vision" reference in ch.9...

Yes, the word mareh...

The 70 weeks prophecy has a definitive start mentioned by the angel, which is the issuance of Arthaxerxes decree to rebuild Jerusalem. But not the 2300 evenings and mornings.

Is it right to give a same start of dating to the 2300 evenings and mornings as the starting date of the 70 weeks prophecy?

There were four decree issued regarding the rebuilding of Jerusalem; Cyrus in 536 BC, Darius in 519 BC, Arthaxerxes in 457 BC and 444 BC. Why we take 457 BC as a starting date?

In His love

James S

James,

I think that was also asked and discussed in the Lesson Study #7 topic, however, seeing it is also part of this study, it can also be discussed here.

To me the end dates of the various aspects of the 70 week/490 year prophecy verifies that 457 BC is the correct start date.

James,

As far as the start date goes for the 2300 day/year prophecy, do you see any other possible start date?

I'm scheduled to teach this tomorrow in SS, so I did a bit of review. (And also to answer my own question from last week.) I'm just going to lay out my thoughts, with little pre-determined order. I hope this makes some kind of sense.

I found several books that had a lot of good information. Clifford Goldstein's book, 1844 Made Simple, is a good one for starters (and this quarter is mostly taken from that book). Then there's the Daniel and Revelation Committee series by the BRI (a bit heavy, but good info). There's also The Santuary and the Atonement (if only I could get my hands on the unabridged version...).

Goldstein makes it clear in his book and the quarterly that his arguments and conclusions are based on the fact that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. The first 69 weeks of the prophecy ends with the "anointing" of the Messiah. Half way through the last week, the Messiah is "cut off" (not the same word as Dan 9:24). Historical sources date Christ's baptism to AD27, and He was sacrificed about 3.5 years later. You set down those dates and 457BC is the only date that makes sense for the start of the 70 weeks.

This should work well for convincing Christians of the 457BC date, but not so well for non-Christians. However, those who separate the 70th week from the rest might not be so easily convinced.

Goldstein's arguments based on hazon and mareh are pretty convincing to show that the 70 weeks is cut off from the 2300 days. William Shea makes an argument based on the literary structure of Daniel 8 and 9. Basically, Dan 9 is unlike chaps 7 and 8 in that it puts the time elements at the beginning of the chapter, causing the 70 weeks to be adjacent to the part of Dan 8 where the 2300 days should have been explained.

Where do we cut off the 70 weeks?

If you cut it off at the end, that means that the time of the end was around AD34 - doesn't fit. Plus, analysis of Dan 8 points to the Medo-Persian kingdom as the start of the 2300 days. That puts the end well past AD34.

Daniel 7 puts a 1260-year reign of the little horn before the judgment. Goldstein argues that the judgment must happen after the 1260 years, which is reasonable. We know, and Goldstein pointed this out a few weeks ago, that the cleansing of the sanctuary and the judgment are closely linked. That would put the end of the 2300 days after the 1260 years.

That narrows down the end date of the 2300 days to some time in the late 18th or early 19th century. That means that the 70 weeks must be cut off somewhere near the start of the 2300 days.

I haven't yet found anything that a non-Adventist would accept to pinpoint the end of the 2300 days to 1844. But I don't see how it really matters to us today. Rather than wrestling over the 50-year uncertainty, I prefer to focus on the certainty of judgment and righteousness.

Arnold,

What 50-year uncertainty?

Without relying on the SOP, I can only narrow down the end of the 2300 days to between 1798 and 1844. Any ideas?

Also, do you have any references that explain what happened at the end of the 7 weeks?

Sorry for the delay.

The scattering times from Lev 26, 2 Chor 33:9,10 Isa 7:8 and other text that establish the scattering time of 2500-years began in 677 BC and ended in 1843/44
The 2300-years also ended in 1843/44.

What is the time difference between the 2520 and 2300-years? 220 years correct?

Subtract 220 from 657 and what do you have? You will see the beginning date of the 2300-year time prophecy.

Understand that there are a series of text, which lay out the 2520 scattering time prophecy. I just listed a couple.

There is not really much to this prophecy as far as events are concerned.

Peace and Grace
David

Quote "I haven't yet found anything that a non-Adventist would accept to pinpoint the end of the 2300 days to 1844.” end quote

Asygo,

I would have to disagree with you on this comment. And here is the reason;
I have taught this and other time prophecies to many non-Seventh-day Adventist, A Tennessee Temple religion student who accepted it as scriptural fact along with the Sabbath even in the face of his teachers at the university. Also, Church of God, Non-Christians and even to a “Pentecostal couple just a about three weeks ago along with the Sabbath truth.
I am even currently teaching Seventh day Adventist who have not heard this message in so many years that they have lost their understanding of it.

From my experience with teaching this scriptural time line (2300) and its starting date of 457 BC, I have never had a problem and I do not see how anyone who believes them to be true would ever have any trouble with teaching them. Again, I would suggest take a look at how the founders taught it and what they wrote and forget what is being printed today for there are many things that are not correct in the new writings.

Also;

Quote “But I don't see how it really matters to us today. Rather than wrestling over the 50-year uncertainty,”


If one does not believe nor understand these prophecies, 2520, 2450 and the 2300 day / year prophecies and what is in them then how does one know where they stand in the events that are talking place around them. Also, I should add that in the 2300-day prophecy, which IN FACT began in 457 BC you will find not only the beginning of Christ’s ministry but his death as well and the rejection of Christ by the Jewish leaders and people but also the stoning of Stephen. One will find as well that pagan / catholic church and her role in history.
When one also adds into these prophecies the Book of Revelation, one will find the history of the churches, which fit hand in hand with the 2300-day prophecy. You will also see the rise and fall of nations, and the rise of that abomination the catholic church. Without these prophecies and our scriptural and historical proof of these prophecies one will never know where they stand in Bible prophecy nor could they teach them correctly. Just look it the books “the left behind” trash and how people are taking them as scriptural facts. Look at how they are being led down the road to eternal death from such false teachings!


Moreover,
Quote “I prefer to focus on the certainty of judgment and righteousness." end quote

The Seventh day Adventist message is in part the time prophecies as well as “Christ and HIS Righteousness. If we can show where we stand in the time prophecies and that Christ Himself also warned us to know the signs of the times or we will be taken unawares. We can also show the need to know the Son of God as not only our personal saviour but as our brother as well.

The earth is soon to be destroyed and all the wicked. How would one know just how close they truly are to the end of time without the time prophecies? Who would believe just how close we are to the end without a Biblical and Historical understanding of the time prophecies?

As far as the date being off by some years, these are things that take our eyes and time and energy from teaching the truth and warning people of what is about to happen, they are side issues. Also, some would have us believe we can put the “70-week” at the end of the 2300 day prophecy one should understand that that is a Jesuit teaching from around the 1600’s it is called futurism.

Peace and Grace
David

It begins with Lev 26, then 2 Chor 33:9,10, Isa 7:8, Deut 7:6, Dan 12:7, Jer 5:1, Jer 15:1-4, Eze 39:8, Eze 21:7
Christian Education by Dr. Southerland pp 120-122
Spalding & Magan pp 1
The 1858 Great Controversy pp 148
Life Incidents by Brother James White pp 307

The 2520 began in 677 BC 2520-607 = 1843

Isa 7:8 gave the prophecy and this date was 742. 65 years later = 677 BC Ephraim was broken and this is the term the ten tribes of Israel, not Judah and Levi were not among them.

The 2450 began in 607 BC
The 2300 began in 457 BC
The 2520 – 2300 is difference of 220 years. The 2520 began in 677 now subtract the difference from the 2 dates 2520-220 and you have the beginning date for the 2300 time prophecy.

All ended in 1843/44
The old charts have them.

This is very short and leaves much to be desired, however it is a beginning to those who wish to study it out. It is also something that is no longer taught in the church, however it was at one time taught along with the 2300 day prophecy. There is more happening in the 2300 day prophecy than the other two and so it is more exciting to teach.

Peace and Grace
David

Do any of these texts specifically speak of this 2520 prophecy in specific reference to 2520?

No not like the 2300 does.

What Miller and Brother White and others did, they did some simple math using Lev 26 along with the rest of the text (there might be 1 or 2 others that I may have forgotten)for their understanding of the 2520 time prophecy.

I wish that everyone had a copy of the old charts.

Peace and Grace
David

The following link may be of interest to us in relation to this 2520 prophecy:

http://www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/time.htm

It is interesting that this information is in a Baha'i Faith related site.

This is interesting thank you. It seems that a non Seventh day Adventist is aware of the teachings. However, there is more to it than what is written there.
AN dmore to what I have given as well.

Keep searching.

Peace and Grace

daivd

But was this ever an SDA teaching or rather simply a William Miller teaching that was rejected by the SDA Church?

I also find it interesting that EGW has never referenced this in any of her writings.

Yes, it was an early SDA teaching. In fact it was even taught before the church became the denomination. You can find it on Brother White's chart top center. Just as it can be found on Brother Millers chart top center right.

Also Sister white does refer to the fact that God put the charts the way he wanted them.

The 2520 is the scattering times, and Sister White also refers to this time as well.

It is the old landmarks that are missing today.

Peace and Grace
David

The 1858 Great Controversy page 148 last paragraph has this to say
" Jesus did not come to earth as the waiting, joyful company expected, to cleanse the Sanctuary, by purifying the earth by fire. I saw that they were correct in their reckoning of the prophetic periods. Prophetic time closed in 1844. Their mistake consisted in not understanding what the Sanctuary was, and the nature of its cleansing. Jesus did enter the Most Holy place to cleanse the Sanctuary at the ending of the days. I looked again at the waiting, disappointed company. They looked sad. They carefully examined the evidences of their faith, and followed down through the reckoning of the prophetic periods, and could discover no mistake. Time was fulfilled, but where was their Saviour? They had lost him."

Peace and Grace
David