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Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79310
09/16/06 04:36 PM
09/16/06 04:36 PM
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This week's study could prove to be an interesting study as I read elsewhere regarding some concerns about what the author has written in this week's study, which I/we will examine for myself/ourselves. Here is the direct link to this week's study:http://www.ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/06c/less13.htmlLet our study, examining, and discussion begin.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79311
09/16/06 05:36 PM
09/16/06 05:36 PM
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Here is a quote of this Sabbath Afternoon comments: Quote:
Memory Text: "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1).
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As Adventists, we believe that since 1844 we have been living in the antitypical day of atonement. This means that the earthly day of atonement was simply a model, a type, of this true day of atonement. In the same way that the animal sacrifices were symbols of the Cross, the earthly Day of Atonement was a symbol of the real one, the one inaugurated in 1844 by Christ's work of judgment in the heavenly sanctuary.
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This, of course, is good news. After all, what is atonement other than the work of God saving us through Christ's blood? The law can't atone; obedience can't atone; character can't atone. Atonement comes only one way, through the Cross.
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If, then, we are living in the day of atonement, shouldn't that be good news? Shouldn't any "day" dedicated to atonement, to God's work of saving us, be something we should be thankful for? Shouldn't we be rejoicing in the hope of living in the day of atonement?
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Of course. The judgment is good news because it forms an inseparable part of "the good news"; it is the climactic application of the Cross in our behalf. This week we'll look at the gospel and the judgment, because it's only through the lens of the gospel that we can fully see just what the judgment means for us.
Does everybody agree with the above quote?
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79313
09/16/06 08:17 PM
09/16/06 08:17 PM
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Quote:
This week's study could prove to be an interesting study as I read elsewhere regarding some concerns about what the author has written in this week's study, which I/we will examine for myself/ourselves.
I have difficulty believing this statement from the lesson:
Quote:
But how do I know that I will have enough works to show that I have faith? That's a logical, but wrongly premised, question. It reflects that attitude of those who said, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? ..."
I believe that the author directly contradicts James 2:14-26.
I hope no one is going to deny that the Seventh-day Adventist church generally, like that Adventist author, are strongly opposed to hearing how they fail in obeying God. I'm reminded of the time I heard a visiting Adventist administrator preach a whole sermon condemning those who believe in Isaiah 58:1 and the whole congregation seemed to approve.
"Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins."
Strangely, I have a non-Adventist friend who visited an Adventist church in another state and she heard the same sermon condemning any and all Seventh-day Adventists who would faithfully obey Isaiah 58:1.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79315
09/16/06 11:38 PM
09/16/06 11:38 PM
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That quote was taken from Wednesday's study. Here is the whole quote: Quote:
But how do I know that I will have enough works to show that I have faith? That's a logical, but wrongly premised, question. It reflects that attitude of those who said, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" (Matt. 7:22), or of the Pharisee who said, "God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess" (Luke 18:11, 12).
Unless I am missing something, I personally do not see anything wrong with this quote. Works are important, not as a requirement of salvation, but rather as a result of salvation. Works can't save me, however, if my profession of faith doesn't result in works, then my profession of faith is dead, just as faith without works is dead.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79317
09/17/06 03:10 PM
09/17/06 03:10 PM
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But, should our faith be based on our works? Shouldn't works, instead, be a result of our faith? I just thought of the following text: Quote:
Mat. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
What's wrong in this situation?
What good did their works do them here?
What was lacking?
What role did faith play here?
What role should faith play?
What role should works play?
Quote:
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79319
09/17/06 04:03 PM
09/17/06 04:03 PM
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Yes, works are important, as a result of genuine faith, but not as a prerequisite for salvation, for we are not saved by our works, but our works do follow a genuine faith relationship with Jesus Christ. Good works are really evidence of genuine faith, but our good works alone are not evidence of genuine faith as Matthew 7:22 and 23 has shown.
We are saved by grace through faith, but we are judged by our good works, which really is the evidence of faith. This is why we can't separate our resulting works from our faith, for our professed faith, without our corresponding good works, is dead.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79322
09/17/06 06:51 PM
09/17/06 06:51 PM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Quote:
What's wrong in this situation?
What good did their works do them here?
What was lacking?
What role did faith play here?
What role should faith play?
What role should works play?
What is wrong in the situation is not knowing God. To know God is eternal life. We know God through His Son.
A nice definition for faith I've heard is a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross.
Faith is not simply mental assent, but our entering into a relationship with the living God. When we believe in Christ, we are converted. Our conversion involves a writing of the law in our hearts and mind, which is to say that our goals and desires become aligned with God's. Instead of desiring to live for self, we desire to live for others, primarily God. There is a complete change of focus.
Our works simply testify to our faith. We all have faith in something. As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. What we say, what we do, is the result of what we think. These things that we say and do are our works, which testify to what we think.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79324
09/17/06 08:07 PM
09/17/06 08:07 PM
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79325
09/17/06 08:26 PM
09/17/06 08:26 PM
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Sunday's study says that "the Bible is clear that there is a judgment and that this is a judgment by works, a judgment where our works come under scrutiny. (After all, what is a judgment without such a scrutiny?) Remember, Jesus said that we shall give an account of "every idle word" (Matt. 12:36). Every idle word? And is this not the same Lord who said that the "hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matt. 10:30), who knows when a sparrow falls to the ground (Matt. 10:29), and who said in His Word that He shall bring "every work into judgment, with every secret thing" (Eccles. 12:14)? Every work? Every secret thing? Thus, the whole idea of a scrutiny of works, an investigation in judgment, is biblical."
In other words, salvation by grace through faith and judgment based on works, are biblical.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79327
09/18/06 09:05 AM
09/18/06 09:05 AM
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Sweden
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Seems to me that if James speech on works is to be discussed, the passage ought to be lifted into the discussion. Here goes. Quote:
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Off topic but Ill ask anyway. What does the following mean for us today?Quote:
7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79328
09/18/06 02:45 PM
09/18/06 02:45 PM
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Yes, Thomas, faith without corresponding works, is dead faith, which goes to show the importance of works as the resulting proof our profession of faith in Christ. I think this type of works is the same as fruits. Quote:
Mat. 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Fruits = Works.
Works = Fruits.
This is why The Judgment is based on works (fruits), and not simply on our profession.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79329
09/18/06 02:48 PM
09/18/06 02:48 PM
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From Monday's study: Quote:
Central to our theology as Seventh-day Adventists is the sanctuary, both the earthly as a model of the plan of salvation and the heavenly as the place where Jesus is now ministering in our behalf the merits of His atoning death. We as Adventists believe—based on (1) the earthly sanctuary model, (2) the book of Hebrews, and (3) the prophecies in Daniel—that since 1844 Jesus has been in the Most Holy Place, where the judgment, clearly seen in Daniel 7, is now taking place.
Seeing that this belief, or doctrine, is biblically based, as proven from our studies so far this quarter, why is it that the SDA Church is the only church that believes in and teaches this truth?
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79331
09/22/06 01:34 PM
09/22/06 01:34 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote.
The good news of the judgment is that Jesus, in His righteousness, gets us through the judgment because He stands there in our place.
Unquote.
What is he doing in our place?
Quote.
The good news of the judgment is that we don't have to stand in our own righteousness. We can stand in the righteousness of Jesus. That we are judged by works doesn't mean that we are saved by them; we are saved, instead, only through the righteousness of Jesus, which is credited to us by faith, a faith that is always manifested by works. This righteousness covers us the moment we, through a complete surrender of ourselves to Christ, claim it for ourselves, and it stays with us (though not unconditionally) right through the judgment. After all, what good would being covered by that righteousness do any of us if we did not have it when we needed it the most, which would be in the judgment?
Unquote.
Why could we not stand in our own righteousness? What do we lack?
Are we really saved by the righteousness of Christ credited to us? Or are we saved by the grace of God in our own righteousness?
In His love
James S.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79333
09/22/06 03:42 PM
09/22/06 03:42 PM
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Posts: 149
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Quote:
But, should our faith be based on our works? Shouldn't works, instead, be a result of our faith?
I just thought of the following text:
Quote:
Mat. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
What's wrong in this situation?
What good did their works do them here?
What was lacking?
What role did faith play here?
What role should faith play?
What role should works play?
Quote:
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:8 is a good qoute but you really need to add in verses 9 and 10.
"Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79334
09/22/06 06:13 PM
09/22/06 06:13 PM
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Tuesday's study on the person who went in without wearing the wedding garment is a miniature version of the Investigative Judgment. Quote:
Matthew 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
We have the king who looking over, or investigating the guests, noticed that one of the guests wasn't wearing the wedding garment, which symbolizes the garment, or robe, of Christ's righteousness. When the king asked why he wasn't wearing the wedding garment, he was speechless.
Quote:
Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
What was the result of this speechless guest not wearing the wedding garment?
Quote:
Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
What you have just seen was the Investigative Judgment in this parable.
From Tuesday's study:
Quote:
In this parable we see a clear example of someone who heeded the invitation to the wedding but not the conditions. He refused to accept what the owner offered him: the robe of Christ's perfect righteousness and, thus, upon investigation, was found wanting.
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Notice, the parable said that both the good and the bad came. It didn't say whether the man without the garment was good or bad. In one sense it made no difference: Before God in judgment, we all—"good" or "bad"—without a garment stand condemned. What the guest needed at the wedding is the same thing that we need in the judgment, something covering us; otherwise, we will be cast out where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. That covering, symbolized by the garment in the parable, is the righteousness of Jesus, credited to His followers by faith and it is their only hope now and in the judgment.
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Whether through the imagery of the blood, or the garment, the point is the same: We need something other than ourselves to get us through the judgment. And the good news is that, through the sacrifice of Jesus, we have all that we need: the righteousness of God Himself (see Rom. 3:21, 22; 10:3; 2 Pet. 1:1) credited to us by faith.
Works will not save us, however, by our works, or fruits, we shall be known. The works, or fruits, of righteousness followed those wearing the garment, however, no matter how good or bad a person has been, even good works, without wearing the robe of Christ's righteousness will not save that person.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79336
09/22/06 11:19 PM
09/22/06 11:19 PM
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From Thursday's study comes this interesting double quote: Quote:
"But while we should realize our sinful condition, we are to rely upon Christ as our righteousness, our sanctification, and our redemption. We cannot answer the charges of Satan against us. Christ alone can make an effectual plea in our behalf. He is able to silence the accuser with arguments founded not upon our merits, but on His own."—Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 472. The futility of our works for salvation should cause us to lean totally on the mercy and merits of Christ. Then, out of love and thankfulness for the assurance of salvation that's ours through Christ, we serve Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and body, a service that's expressed in works. How else could it be?
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79339
09/23/06 06:28 PM
09/23/06 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city" - Rev. 22:14.
Why should we wore another robe (of Christ) while we are blessed having our robe washed and have the right to enter the gate of heaven and to the tree of life?
In His love
James S
The KJV says:
Quote:
Rev. 22:14 KJV Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
The "wash their robes" in the ASV is "do his commandments" in the KJV, therefore, the KJV answers your question.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79340
09/24/06 07:52 PM
09/24/06 07:52 PM
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Quote:
It seemed to me from reading the atonement day passages from leviticus that this event would correspond more to the cross than anything else. If the Pesach lamb was killed in rememberence of Gods salvation and the atonement sacrafices for the forgiveness of sins, ehm, what am I missing?
But, Thomas, the atonement ministry isn't just killing the sacrifice and burning it on the altar: the blood of the sacrifice must be brought into God's presence and sprinkled on the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant - that sprinkling completed the atonement ministry....the scape goat bit has nothing to do with atoning for the people.
The antitypical atonement ministry has a presentation of meritorious blood (that is Jesus in person, not necessarily his own, spilt and collected blood) in God's presence in heaven. That activity completes the atonement, but only at the time it's due to happen, starting in 1844 as prophecy shows. Forgiveness has been given men since Adam, but blotting out those forgiven sins from our records in heaven in only done by doing & completing the atoning ministry of Jesus today.
Does that help with your confusion?
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79341
09/24/06 08:08 PM
09/24/06 08:08 PM
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E. Oregon, USA
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Quote:
From Monday's study:
Quote:
Central to our theology as Seventh-day Adventists is the sanctuary, both the earthly as a model of the plan of salvation and the heavenly as the place where Jesus is now ministering in our behalf the merits of His atoning death. We as Adventists believe—based on (1) the earthly sanctuary model, (2) the book of Hebrews, and (3) the prophecies in Daniel—that since 1844 Jesus has been in the Most Holy Place, where the judgment, clearly seen in Daniel 7, is now taking place.
Seeing that this belief, or doctrine, is biblically based, as proven from our studies so far this quarter, why is it that the SDA Church is the only church that believes in and teaches this truth?
I don't think we're the only ones, since every church believes Jesus is our High Priest in heaven doing what high priests do (acc. to the Bible): the difference between our version of Jesus' job and other churches' version is what this week's lesson (lesson of this thread at least) didn't mention....
Faith that is experienced in righteous deeds (aka good works) is purified in the investigative judgement since Jesus only wants to impart his full character of thought and action to our lives, after he justified us individually with the spiritual rebirth of "the mind of Christ", ie. receptivity to his divine Spirit. IOW the IJ completes our experience of justification, or sanctification as it is also called: no other church allows such a doctrine; no other church believes Jesus can finish his job.
Is that a valid difference?
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79342
09/24/06 08:30 PM
09/24/06 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Quote.
The good news of the judgment is that Jesus, in His righteousness, gets us through the judgment because He stands there in our place.
Unquote.
What is he doing in our place?
Yes, this quote from the lesson shows what Cliff left out - but which must be included: Christ's righteousness gets us into the investigative judgement, but being fully trained by Jesus in sanctification takes us to the end of that investigation: Jesus' imputed righteousness (by which we are spiritually reborn Jn 3:3) is our experience of Christ's righteous mind by his Spirit, and Jesus' imparted righteousness fills our lives with his character till he has put all his character into us as far as he's concerned.
That's why Jesus isn't just in our place...he lifts us up to him before the universe.
Quote:
Quote.
The good news of the judgment is that we don't have to stand in our own righteousness. We can stand in the righteousness of Jesus. That we are judged by works doesn't mean that we are saved by them; we are saved, instead, only through the righteousness of Jesus, which is credited to us by faith, a faith that is always manifested by works. This righteousness covers us the moment we, through a complete surrender of ourselves to Christ, claim it for ourselves, and it stays with us (though not unconditionally) right through the judgment. After all, what good would being covered by that righteousness do any of us if we did not have it when we needed it the most, which would be in the judgment?
Unquote.
Why could we not stand in our own righteousness? What do we lack?
Are we really saved by the righteousness of Christ credited to us? Or are we saved by the grace of God in our own righteousness?
In His love
James S.
The first part of your last question is a definite!!! The second part of your last question is correct for a different purpose: fitting our experience of faith for heavenly society, so we can go from here to there with the Father's approval of our righteous deeds. Take a close look at the end of Rev 19:8...: when Jesus has finished his job in us of reproducing his righteousness his bride's "fine linen" is made, before he returns to earth to fetch without further ado the subjects of his kingdom in the new earth ("subjects" is a concept Canadians should be familiar with, along with British subjects like myself  ).
Also I'd like to agree with David's comments about Gal 2:8-10. Quite obviously, we are reborn for good works, and those good works are perfected in the investigative judgement alluded to in Tit 2:11-15. Listen to the video of the GC devotional on that text last year... 
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79343
09/24/06 08:45 PM
09/24/06 08:45 PM
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E. Oregon, USA
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Daryl, Your comments here: Quote:
Works will not save us, however, by our works, or fruits, we shall be known. The works, or fruits, of righteousness followed those wearing the garment, however, no matter how good or bad a person has been, even good works, without wearing the robe of Christ's righteousness will not save that person.
...are only true in terms of the truth of "saved by justification of faith" - as we generally say it. In terms of sanctification - i.e. our living experience of justification by faith (itself a mental experience), being fitted for heaven is our experience of being saved from sinning. Thus justification and sanctification make up salvation, as we are being saved from sin and sinning in the present tense and in Jesus' work of the investigative judgement, which completes our salvation from (spiritual) sinfulness sinning (hence Jesus' names' meaning), making us ready for the removal of physical sinfulness when he returns to fetch us.
Yes, works do not justify us (THAT is Roman Catholicism's sacramental approach to salvation), but works complete Christ's job of saving us from sin.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79344
09/24/06 08:58 PM
09/24/06 08:58 PM
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It seemed to me from reading the atonement day passages from leviticus that this event would correspond more to the cross than anything else. If the Pesach lamb was killed in rememberence of Gods salvation and the atonement sacrafices for the forgiveness of sins, ehm, what am I missing?
But, Thomas, the atonement ministry isn't just killing the sacrifice and burning it on the altar: the blood of the sacrifice must be brought into God's presence and sprinkled on the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant - that sprinkling completed the atonement ministry....the scape goat bit has nothing to do with atoning for the people.
The antitypical atonement ministry has a presentation of meritorious blood (that is Jesus in person, not necessarily his own, spilt and collected blood) in God's presence in heaven. That activity completes the atonement, but only at the time it's due to happen, starting in 1844 as prophecy shows. Forgiveness has been given men since Adam, but blotting out those forgiven sins from our records in heaven in only done by doing & completing the atoning ministry of Jesus today.
Does that help with your confusion?
Only if you can show from the bible that this did not happen at any earlier date.
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
This for instance appears to say that the blood of Jesus works in favour of the believer already within the lifetime of John the apostle. This is different from the time before Jesus as we read in Romans.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
And in the expressed context of the sanctuary, we read this.
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more." 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
This seems to say that not only has Jesus secured the atonement for us, He has also presented it for the Father, sat down at the right side of the throne in heaven and His presence there opens the way for all believers to enter aswell (the sentence is written in the active present tense according to the concordance at BlueLetterBible )
In what way do these passages and possible others allow for part of the attonement to have happened first 1800 years later?
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79345
09/25/06 11:02 AM
09/25/06 11:02 AM
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Your Bible study doesn't really deal with the timing of heavenly activities, just the fact that Jesus is doing the real priestly and high priestly activity there and has offered the real sacrifice for sin and atonement for us.
The lesson study on Dan 7 this quarter brings out that the judgement of the saints happens both after the Roman empire and church has done its worst until the last push of the Sunday law with that combination of America and the papacy and Protestantism, but this judgement occurs just before the saints are given the kingdom by God. Yes, Dan 7 is a study just about the judgement of the saints....
Jesus' activities as Redeemer were done once and for all time and for everyone since Adam: the OT sacrifices did deal with sin - on God's instructions, but only by faith in the promise of the Messiah to come - since only Jesus could deal with sin properly, indeed. The priestly ministry of Jesus started from after his Ascension and inauguration as High Priest in heaven, but it has two phases: forgiveness and repentance and regeneration or rebirth, after which is the judgement or day of atonement. The history lesson of the sanctuary service makes this clear: the first phase makes us Christian believers each day after confession of sins committed, with a recording of forgiveness in our past records and our present experience of rebirth by the Spirit - each day; the second phase of atonement differs from this for it actually blots out or removes the record of forgiven sins to make us cleansed and purified and filled with imparted righteousness in our lives, just as we've been filled with imputed righteousness since the beginning of our faith experience to start with. Atonement is the pinnacle of our faith experience: we become like Christ in experiencing righteousness, despite having sinful bodies.
The routine for Jesus as priest is illustrated by the sanctuary service known from the Bible. The purpose of atonement isn't really to make us Christians at all - that happened with Jesus' first phase of ministry: the atonement is to make us ready for heaven by removing sin from our lives (not from our sinful bodies - that's what translation and glorification is for) as we work with Jesus whose own character is installed in us while we walk with him.
Eph 4:13 sums up the result of Jesus' work in us by his Spirit, does it not? This topic is a much longer study than can fit into this post, and yes, the Sabbath School lesson didn't really do a very good job of it either, so read those chapters in the Great Controversy - what else have you read to try to understand this?
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79346
09/25/06 11:39 AM
09/25/06 11:39 AM
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Your Bible study doesn't really deal with the timing of heavenly activities, just the fact that Jesus is doing the real priestly and high priestly activity there and has offered the real sacrifice for sin and atonement for us.
Except for pointing out that these things where written about in "accomplished fact" tense rather than in the "will happen in the distant future" tense. Quote:
The lesson study on Dan 7 this quarter brings out that the judgement of the saints happens both after the Roman empire and church has done its worst until the last push of the Sunday law with that combination of America and the papacy and Protestantism, but this judgement occurs just before the saints are given the kingdom by God. Yes, Dan 7 is a study just about the judgement of the saints....
But these things have not happened yet. As far as we know this sunday law has not been declared and yet it is now 162 years since the time it should have started if I understand what you are trying to say correctly. Otherwise, you still arent talking about what 1844 was really about. What about the vision in Daniel 7 indicate that it is an event surrounded on both sides by ample amounts of "buisness as usual" on earth? Quote:
Jesus' activities as Redeemer were done once and for all time and for everyone since Adam: the OT sacrifices did deal with sin - on God's instructions, but only by faith in the promise of the Messiah to come - since only Jesus could deal with sin properly, indeed. The priestly ministry of Jesus started from after his Ascension and inauguration as High Priest in heaven, but it has two phases: forgiveness and repentance and regeneration or rebirth, after which is the judgement or day of atonement. The history lesson of the sanctuary service makes this clear: the first phase makes us Christian believers each day after confession of sins committed, with a recording of forgiveness in our past records and our present experience of rebirth by the Spirit - each day; the second phase of atonement differs from this for it actually blots out or removes the record of forgiven sins to make us cleansed and purified and filled with imparted righteousness in our lives, just as we've been filled with imputed righteousness since the beginning of our faith experience to start with. Atonement is the pinnacle of our faith experience: we become like Christ in experiencing righteousness, despite having sinful bodies.
Could I ask you to elaborate this analogy between the jewish "church year" and the salvation history with special note to where Jesus birth, life, death and ressurection fits in. As I wrote earlier, it seems to me that all acts needed for our salvation were shadowed in the atonement day symbols. But then I dont see how it would fit a 1800 year gap between the when it begann and its final acts. Quote:
The routine for Jesus as priest is illustrated by the sanctuary service known from the Bible. The purpose of atonement isn't really to make us Christians at all - that happened with Jesus' first phase of ministry: the atonement is to make us ready for heaven by removing sin from our lives (not from our sinful bodies - that's what translation and glorification is for) as we work with Jesus whose own character is installed in us while we walk with him.
But if you say atonement is another way to talk about translation and glorification, you would be talking about a future time, right? For surely you arent arguing that people have been translated and glorified at death since that year?Quote:
Eph 4:13 sums up the result of Jesus' work in us by his Spirit, does it not?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
Quote:
This topic is a much longer study than can fit into this post, and yes, the Sabbath School lesson didn't really do a very good job of it either, so read those chapters in the Great Controversy - what else have you read to try to understand this?
Ehm, the atonement passages of leviticus. Maybe I should check deuteronomy aswell? Since you refer me to the Great Controversy, does that mean that there are no scripture that you could refer me to that would explain this?
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79347
09/25/06 01:23 PM
09/25/06 01:23 PM
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Quote.
Are we really saved by the righteousness of Christ credited to us? Or are we saved by the grace of God in our own righteousness?
In His love
James S.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first part of your last question is a definite!!! The second part of your last question is correct for a different purpose: fitting our experience of faith for heavenly society, so we can go from here to there with the Father's approval of our righteous deeds. Take a close look at the end of Rev 19:8...: when Jesus has finished his job in us of reproducing his righteousness his bride's "fine linen" is made, before he returns to earth to fetch without further ado the subjects of his kingdom in the new earth ("subjects" is a concept Canadians should be familiar with, along with British subjects like myself ).
Unquote.
I believe that we are saved by the grace of God, who forgives our sins in breaking his commands, for even tough he justify us who had the righteousness of Christ in us that we obtain through a life of faith after the Spirit, we are still sinners before the law.
Therefore, I think, we stand in the judgment in our own righteousness, for it is a righteousness we obtain by living after the Spirit with faith in Christ, a righteousness of the law fulfilled in us through Christ’ mediation from heaven, through His Spirit.
When Christ had fulfilled the righteousness of the law in us who live by faith and walked after the Spirit, we might stand in the judgment perfect, we have worn His righteousness obtained through life time sanctification. Why would we again be covered by his robe of righteousness? Isn’t our righteousness enough to pass the judgment of God? Isn’t the law written in our hearts? Isn’t the law testifies that we have fulfilled it demands?
So, the question is still: Are we saved by Christ righteousness CREDITED to us, or are we saved by the grace of God in our own righteousness? I believe the last is the correct one.
In His love
James
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79348
09/25/06 08:46 PM
09/25/06 08:46 PM
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No, we cannot qualify for heaven by the righteous deeds we experience and act out by faith: such righteousness f i t s us for heavenly living - eternal living, but is not mertorious.
Only Jesus' own righteousness is meritorious and gives us title to heaven when we experience justification by faith: living righteously on earth is the project of the judgement but it is only practically possible because we have Jesus' mind recreated or imputed in our lives, and we qualify for heaven ever only always because we have Christ's righteousness.
Yes, we do develop Christlike characters of righteousness and that is a development perfected by the investigative judgement - we work with Jesus on it, but being saved from sin in the judgement is by BOTH Christ's righteousness imputed to and recreated in our minds and his imparted character instilled into our lives.
As the parable of the wedding feast illustrates, the rob of Christ's righteousness is the basis of the judgement which gives the saints the kingdom and it is the righteous attitude by which we are able to be fitted for heaven in the judgement. Our growth in grace, faith and righteous living is because we have replaced our past sins with Christ's righteousness and keep that rob on.
Our title to heaven is by grace through faith, not by grace alone by Jesus being Saviour of the world: Jesus himself merely qualifies as Saviour by developing his own righteousness and possessing it forever more - thus he saved the world by grace. Grace is that big, indeed, but we only HAVE title to heaven by a faith relationship Jesus has with us individually.
So, we are judged and saved by both Christ's righteousness imputed, recreated and credited to us, and by being fully trained in righteousness by Jesus. That clear now?
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79349
09/25/06 09:09 PM
09/25/06 09:09 PM
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The following EGW quote from another topic is also relevant to this one: Quote:
When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. (COL 312)
The above quote is the answer to James' question.
Per the above quote:
Christ's Robe of Righteousness = Perfect Obedience to the Law of Jehovah.
If I am understanding this correctly, and/or saying this correctly, this means that a person wearing Christ's Robe of Righteousness is seen by Jehovah as though he had never sinned.
Our own righteousness is as filthy rags.
Quote:
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79351
09/25/06 09:56 PM
09/25/06 09:56 PM
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I'll try and do this systematically for the topic rather than just going through our comments till now. Atonement isn't glorification and translation - it is purification: the other two occur because atonement is complete beforehand. Atonement completes the removal of sinful characteristics from our lives, minds and characters but does not touch on the sinfulness of our human bodies - glorification deals with our bodies. You appear to have missed this distinction that I made in my previous post. It is the very ambit of atonement which is unique to our investigative judgement understanding within Christiandom: being actively saved from sinning from now into eternity and for all eternity in the antitypical day of atonement, while the typical day of atonement did the same thing for Israel for one day of the year, in hope of what we now have. The timing factor has a practical reason: from Luther to Wesley no theology was developed by Reformers like unto Adventist theology following 1844....no Christians were aware of needing to work directly with Christ on a heavenly day of atonement, but when the time came God made sure someone down here was doing his homework on that topic, starting with Miller and continuing with the vision of the sanctuary given to Hiram Edson on 23rd October 1844. There has always been boldness to approach God's presence in the name of Jesus, but no understanding of participating in a Christian day of atonement experience of the calibre of the Jewish one: a day of judgement in the Christian era - wherein completing sanctification is the order of the day, not justification, since the latter is the reason we're Christian at all. On salvation history moving from the Jews to 'generic' Christians, and the temple service in between, the break with the temple services was at the death of Jesus: the Temple's veil was rent in two, exposing the most holy place to all and sundry...! Jesus' atonement ministry started at that point in time - though his incarnation and righteous life were the indispensible preparation for it: a righteous death and a righteous high priestly ministry thereafter both based obviously on his life record of victory over sin in our sinful nature. The time gap before Jesus' ministry of final atonement since he began as our Mediator with God (after his ascension, of course) is more likely because God had to let the Devil loose on Christians. Don't forget the 1260 years fulfilling prophecy about persecution by the church in Rome; otherwise our church pioneers' interpretation of the prophecy ending in 1844 was based on Rome's wrong church practices being referred to by "the daily" of Dan 8:11, as "the daily" or "continual" symbolising paganism and self-righteousness as the state religion and attitude toward the living God of Persia, Greece, Rome and the church of Rome (the kingdoms and powers of Dan 8's vision)...as well as bad and wrong practices of God's own people in Jerusalem and since then in Christiandom, since Persian times, ie. when the temple was rebuilt, with partial recovery by the Reformation, until 1844. Thus the cleansing or restoring or setting right of the sanctuary of Dan 8:14 began in 1844 as per the time prophecy, from which time we as a church have been studying out the meaning of Eph 4:13 for the sake of the world under the auspices of the Three Angels' Message. This 'late' recovery of the everlasting gospel is also mentioned in Hebrews: 9:10b has "until a time of reformation" for the purposes of earthly sanctuary regulations and procedures. Christiandom has understood faith to focus on Christ's fulfilment of the sanctuary service and to know Christ by that knowledge from his Spirit, but until 1844 this knowledge did not amount to properly understand the day of atonement. That word "reformation" is the Greek word with the same meaning as "set right" or "restored" and such like meanings given today for Dan 8:14's sanctuary. This strongly suggests Paul knew what the future held for persecution and revival and a Christian day of atonement in its real sense - the Jews were waiting with their Yom Kippur for Jesus' first coming, we are waiting with Christ's heavenly atonement ministry for him to finish it with us and come the second time for us: that's a perfect and real experiential atonement event - purifying us so we are properly ready for existing in the presence of God's glory, here at Christ's return and in heaven from there. Where in the bible does it describe and teach this investigative judgement? Adam and Eve were sought after and quizzed by God's Son in Eden about what they had done before they were booted out. In Job God proved Job's faith against Satan's allegations about both Job and God. In Ezekiel God showed him in vision how Jerusalem was being judged by God's 'SAS' inspectors (the SAS & SBS are the UK's superiority over US Seals) who marked God's faithful people with a Hebrew letter close to the shape of a cross or crucifix, and the executor for those who were not sighing and crying over the apostacy in Jerusalem - an apostacy led by the elders: the examination would..."start in my sanctuary". There are many other spots in the Bible which teach such examination and approval or condemnation, including several Gospel parables. Next question.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79352
09/25/06 10:31 PM
09/25/06 10:31 PM
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Quote:
The following EGW quote from another topic is also relevant to this one:
Quote:
When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. (COL 312)
The above quote is the answer to James' question.
Per the above quote:
Christ's Robe of Righteousness = Perfect Obedience to the Law of Jehovah.
If I am understanding this correctly, and/or saying this correctly, this means that a person wearing Christ's Robe of Righteousness is seen by Jehovah as though he had never sinned.
What you have suggested is correct, as regards our forgiven, past sins: Christ's perfect obedience is substituted. That quote says much more than that, though.
In view of your comment, below, in my direction (that's the sense I read of it), the rest of that EGW quote is relevant....
Quote:
Our own righteousness is as filthy rags.
Quote:
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Yes, any and all attempts at righteousness and charity (welfare in the modern sense) by humans are filthy rags. This is not what the gospel makes happen in and through us, though!!
When we are forgiven, we are also reborn of the Spirit and made righteous by Christ's imputed righteousness, ie. justification by faith (JBF). Christ makes us righteous in fact by & with his Spirit and not just in God's graceous sight for the sake of Son sitting beside him: it is Christ's merits we personally, experientially, spiritually, actually receive in the new birth, and they do indeed make our spiritual experience one of perfect obedience when we harness Christ's power for ourselves, since Jesus perfectly obeyed by the power of agape from his Father's Spirit.
The investigative judgement is solely about training us in our faithfulness to God through Christ - experiencing JBF (see above) which we call sanctification - till we become Christlike by using the mind of Christ which he has imputed to us when he forgave our sins from the first time to the last time. Once we have developed perfect Christlikeness by his mediation for and with us, he no longer has need to forgive us since we shall have outgrown sinning; hence, a last time to forgive as he finishes his investigative judgement of us, fully fitting us for heaven.
JBF qualifies us for heaven: Christ's merits credited to our record and imputed to our minds by rebirth. Sanctification is just a word for the sanctified life of training with Christ to stop sinning according to his terms so that we are readied or fitted for going to heaven without seeing death. Being saved from sin and sinning (two negative parts of relating to Jesus) both form part of salvation. Rev 19:8 states that Jesus' success rate with us in this prepares & constitutes his bride's wedding dress for her marriage to the Lamb - which is before the 2nd Coming.... 
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79353
09/25/06 10:34 PM
09/25/06 10:34 PM
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The following EGW quote from another topic is also relevant to this one:
Quote:
When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. (COL 312)
The above quote is the answer to James' question.
Per the above quote:
Christ's Robe of Righteousness = Perfect Obedience to the Law of Jehovah.
If I am understanding this correctly, and/or saying this correctly, this means that a person wearing Christ's Robe of Righteousness is seen by Jehovah as though he had never sinned.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------(end of quote)
Daryl, I don't think you are understanding the quote correctly, because the quote doesn't say anything at all about how God see us. It's talking about our being united with Christ in heart, will, thought, mind and life. The reason God doesn't see the fig leaf garment is because we have been converted. It's not a matter of God seeing us to be something which we aren't, but God's transforming us into something which we aren't (or wouldn't be, but for His saving grace).
Btw, I'm not discussing whether or not your statement is true, just the point that it is not what the quote you cited is discussing.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79354
09/26/06 12:18 AM
09/26/06 12:18 AM
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Quote.
Daryl, I don't think you are understanding the quote correctly, because the quote doesn't say anything at all about how God see us. It's talking about our being united with Christ in heart, will, thought, mind and life. The reason God doesn't see the fig leaf garment is because we have been converted. It's not a matter of God seeing us to be something which we aren't, but God's transforming us into something which we aren't (or wouldn't be, but for His saving grace).
Btw, I'm not discussing whether or not your statement is true, just the point that it is not what the quote you cited is discussing.
Unquote.
I agree with you Tom. Daryl and Colin think that my idea of standing at the judgment in our own robe of righteousness is really our own righteousness obtained by obeying the law, which of course is filthy rags. What I mean with standing at the judgment in our own righteousness is that we have a righteousness obtained through lifetime sanctification by the Spirit of Christ, we stand at the judgment in a state where the law had been fulfilled in us, written in our hearts, where Christ righteousness is fulfilled in us. At this state, who is standing at the judgment? Who is being judge? James or Jesus? It is James, right? But not in his own righteousness obtained though a lifetime effort of obedience to the law, but in Christ righteousness imparted to him through life time sanctification by the Spirit. God would justify him by his faith, for through faith he has reached oneness with Christ through the Spirit.
I mean, wearing Christ robe of righteousness is not some kind of robe that Jesus lends it to you at the judgment; it is a robe you owned through lifetime sanctification ever since the time Christ had given it to you. It is your robe now, it is yours. How could we say a robe given to me by Tom 20 years ago is still his robe? It is mine along time already.
In His love
James S
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Showing disrespect to the Seventh-day Adventist Church and its fundamental beliefs is going against our forum rules. 
