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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79534
09/23/06 07:21 PM
09/23/06 07:21 PM
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In answer to your question comes the following two questions: 1 - Who is the Judge? 2 - Who is the Creator? Answering the above two questions should result in an answer to your own question.  If your questions are leading into a discussion on the Godhead, this isn't the topic for such a discussion.
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79538
09/24/06 12:58 PM
09/24/06 12:58 PM
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Hello Thomas,
Your disappointment with the quarterly is well understood. I experienced the same many years ago when I realized the quarterlies were so often 'walking in circles around the core question'. What frustration for a new believer. Then I was lead to trust only inspired sources - the Word and the S.O.P. as given in full context. Time is short and shorter with ever passing day. Can we really invest it 'walking in circles'? You have highlighted a major problem for those trusting to church publications/religious leaders for their Bible instruction. Ellen White warns us this was the case in 1844:
It is "unto them that look for Him" that Christ is to "appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Hebrews 9:28. Like the tidings of the Saviour's birth, the message of the second advent was not committed to the religious leaders of the people. They had failed to preserve their connection with God, and had refused light from heaven; therefore they were not of the number described by the apostle Paul : "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." 1 Thessalonians 5:4, 5. (Great Controversy 1911, p. 315)
For more light on 1844, one can read the Great Controversy starting at chapter 18 - An American Reformer, and through chapter 24 - In the Holy of Holies. As well chapter 28 - Facing Life's Record (The Investigative Judgment). Early Writings by EGW would also shed light here.
Unfortunately the original chapter titles from the 1884 Great Controversy (published as Spirit of Prophecy Vol. 4) have been changed from their original and instructive sense:
Ch. XIII - William Miller
Ch. XIV - The First Angel's Message
Ch.XV - The Second Angel's Message
Ch. XVI - The Tarrying Time
Ch. XVII - The Midnight Cry
Ch. XVIII - The Sanctuary
Ch. XIX - An Open and a Shut Door
Ch. XX - The Third Angel's Message
Ch. XXI - The Third Message Rejected
Your experience here describes why many church leaders, seminary students and laity cannot explain our core belief - The Sanctuary Message & The Investigative Judgment. The quarterly has the great opportunity to circle the globe with this unique message, but here your witness from Sweden demonstrates where this messenger falls short.
May our dependence be upon the Word of God,
Gordon
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79539
09/24/06 02:08 PM
09/24/06 02:08 PM
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Some weeks ago I asked in class if someone could explain what really happened in that year and got blank stares in reply. Why spend 3 months on a topic if you arent even going to enter the most fundamental question of what it is?
I thought it was clear that in that year the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary began (Dan. 8:14). Since the cleansing of the sanctuary in the sanctuary on earth was a day of judgment, this means in 1844 a work of judgment began in the heavenly sanctuary.
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79542
09/25/06 11:50 PM
09/25/06 11:50 PM
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Sunday's study basically says that "evil will be recompensed and goodness vindicated." Monday's study says that God will also be vindicated. Quote:
What the pre-Advent judgment tells us is that, even now, the Lord is working openly before the onlooking universe. They, right now, are seeing the righteousness and fairness of God's judgment.
This is really what the pre-Advent Judgment, or Investigative Judgment, is all about.
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79543
09/26/06 12:40 AM
09/26/06 12:40 AM
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Thomas, sad but true, the flock is not being fed in these lessons as it should be. I expected more from Goldstein, a converted Jew. Unfortunately most leaders today avoid the issue of what the Investigative Judgement actually means. Fifty years ago there was a sizable remnant in the leadership ranks that would have told you that the investigative judgment is all about the privilege and duty of those living just before the return of Christ to perfect 'holiness in the fear of God.' The three angel's messages are being sapped of their vitality by those who aren't meeting the issue the church must and will face squarely - character perfection. Character perfection is another area of doctrine that Adventists are loosing their grasp of. If we have seen many fanatical ideas on character perfection over the years should that cause us to put our heads in the sand on that issue? Any doctrine that is subject to fanatical interpretations should alert us to the possibility that Satan is making every effort to conceal an essential truth. It makes perfect sense that the means of sanctification and therefore character perfection is revealed and mediated to us through the work of Christ our priest in the Holiest. This morning, my father shared with me his devotional for the day – it happened to be on that topic. Here is what Ellen White says: Quote:
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your
Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5:48.
The word "therefore" implies a conclusion, an inference from what has gone before. Jesus has been describing to His hearers the unfailing mercy and love of God, and He bids them therefore to be perfect. Because your heavenly Father "is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil" (Luke 6:35), because He has stooped to lift you up, therefore, said Jesus, you may become like Him in character, and stand without fault in the presence of men and angels. {MB 76.1}
The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden--perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. {MB 76.2}
With untold love our God has loved us, and our love awakens toward Him as we comprehend something of the length and breadth and depth and height of this love that passeth knowledge. By the revelation of the attractive loveliness of Christ, by the knowledge of His love expressed to us while we were yet sinners, the stubborn heart is melted and subdued, and the sinner is transformed and becomes a child of heaven. God does not employ compulsory measures; love is the agent which He uses to expel sin from the heart. By it He changes pride into humility, and enmity and unbelief into love and faith. {MB 76.3}
The Jews had been wearily toiling to reach perfection by their own efforts, and they had failed. Christ had already told them that their righteousness could never enter the kingdom of heaven. Now He points out to them the character of the righteousness that all who enter heaven will possess. Throughout the Sermon on the Mount He describes its fruits, and now in one sentence He points out its source and its nature: Be perfect as God is perfect. The law [found only in the Holiest - my comment]is but a transcript of the character of God. Behold in your heavenly Father a perfect manifestation of the principles which are the foundation of His government. {MB 77.1}
God is love. Like rays of light from the sun, love and light and joy flow out from Him to all His creatures. It is His nature to give. His very life is the outflow of unselfish love.
"His glory is His children's good;
His joy, His tender Fatherhood."
He tells us to be perfect as He is, in the same manner. We are to be centers of light and blessing to our little circle, even as He is to the universe. We have nothing of ourselves, but the light of His love shines upon us, and we are to reflect its brightness. "In His borrowed goodness good," we may be perfect in our sphere, even as God is perfect in His. {MB 77.2}
Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God. In Christ dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest "in our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. Thus you will be in harmony with every precept of His law; for "the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul." Psalm 19:7, margin. Through love "the righteousness of the law" will be "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4. {MB 77.3}
This quote does not say very much about the mechanics of character perfection through the ministry of Christ in the Holiest, but there are many quotes that might have been included in the quarterly from not only the chapters that Gordon cited, which is a good start, but all throughout her writings and in scripture – Malachi 3 to 5 for example.
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79545
09/26/06 11:51 AM
09/26/06 11:51 AM
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Human perfection of character is being clothed in the righteousness of Christ. The change is internal. The tree has to be good before it can yield good fruit. This is the focus of scripture, Ellen White, Luther, and all the prophets - the Law is spiritual and must be written on the heart by the Holy Spirit before any good works can be done. But notice Thomas how the remnant church is described in Revelation: "And it was granted unto her [the Bride] to be arrayed in fine linen clean and bright; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Revelation 19:8" NKJV. Another text on the relationship between the judgment and good works: Quote:
4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
I Peter 4.
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79547
09/26/06 02:45 PM
09/26/06 02:45 PM
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Good text. Now, if all the legalists around us (and inside us?) would get that being perfect isnt about doing this and not doing that but about equal opportunity loving and giving mercy.
Good thought!
God sent messengers, Jones and Waggoner, with light which deals with this specific subject. As long as we are unaware of this light, I think the confusing is certain to remain.
Here's my favorite quote from the Spirit of Prophecy regarding perfection of character.
The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden--perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.
With untold love our God has loved us, and our love awakens toward Him as we comprehend something of the length and breadth and depth and height of this love that passeth knowledge. By the revelation of the attractive loveliness of Christ, by the knowledge of His love expressed to us while we were yet sinners, the stubborn heart is melted and subdued,
and the sinner is transformed and becomes a child of heaven. God does not employ compulsory measures; love is the agent which He uses to expel sin from the heart. By it He changes pride into humility, and enmity and unbelief into love and faith....
God is love. Like rays of light from the sun, love and light and joy flow out from Him to all His creatures. It is His nature to give. His very life is the outflow of unselfish love....
Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God. In Christ dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest "in our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. Thus you will be in harmony with every precept of His law; for "the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul." Psalm 19:7, margin. Through love "the righteousness of the law" will be "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4. (MB 76-78)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79553
09/29/06 04:34 PM
09/29/06 04:34 PM
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Monday's study is on the fact that God is vindicated by The Judgment that is open to the scrutiny of the whole creation, who in turn "will see the justice and righteousness of God in all His dealing with sin, evil, and rebellion." Tuesday's study, of course, is on the Second Coming itself, which will take place after the Pre-Advent Judgment phase is complete, as stated in the quote below: Quote:
The 1844 pre-Advent judgment is, we believe, that last prophetic time element given to the world. It's God's way of telling us that final events are here, and His coming will be soon. As we saw in an earlier study, all the kingdoms predicted by Daniel came and went, just as predicted. He proved that we can trust Him regarding future events; thus, we can trust Him now that this pre-Advent judgment will, indeed, lead to the Second Coming, and because we know when this judgment began, we can know that the Second Coming is near.
Wednesday's study is on the assurance of salvation.
Quote:
It's the promise that as long as we remain faithful to the Lord—living in humble faith, repentance, and obedience to Him and His commands—we have a faithful High Priest ministering in our behalf, a faithful High Priest who, indeed, stands as our Substitute in judgment.
From the above quote it seems that this assurance of salvation is conditional to our continuing faithfulness, continuing repentance, and continuing obedience to Him and His commands, which means we can lose, not only the assurance of salvation, but salvation itself, if we do not meet these conditions, which also means that once saved, not always saved.
Is that how you all see it here?
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79557
09/29/06 08:19 PM
09/29/06 08:19 PM
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I would say that that question cannot be answered since it is the wrong question, especially as Wednesday's section correctly makes clear that our faithfulness to Jesus is the condition he perfects in us for him to complete our salvation.
I can know that I am being saved, since I consciously have given and continue to give my heart to Jesus each day, and thank him for his heart - his mind - in exchange. Since he died my death to sin on Calvary, and I know about that death by faith but was also in him when he suffered it, I was saved from the condemnation of the law by him and now I'm being saved from the power of sin by and through him. Salvation is never about the state of being saved alone, but both that (as regards the cross event) and the experience and action of being saved.
The assurance is both that Jesus lived, died and rose again as the world's Redeemer and that Jesus is my personal, living Redeemer and Example (in that order) today.
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79558
09/29/06 08:43 PM
09/29/06 08:43 PM
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Quote:
From Thursday lesson.
As certain as the Bible is that we are saved by faith and not by works (Rom. 3:28), it's just as certain that we are judged by our works (Eccles. 3:17, 12:14, 2 Cor. 5:10, 1 Pet. 1:17).
Unquote.
A big error is presented here, we are not saved by faith, but we are justified by faith, judge by works and saved by the grace of God.
How can the author made such a big error?
In His love
James S
Cliff (lesson author) doesn't think justified by faith makes us doers of righteousness - he thinks we are merely pardoned, but not renewed, so works of faith in the practise of justification isn't in his thinking - rebirth and works are all in sanctification for him, so cannot be part of salvation for us, since he likely believes that we are saved by justification alone - sanctification is useful but not part of the gospel fulfilled in us as we experience salvation. He didn't say it like that, but he appears to think it, and I've just explained why he would think it from what he has said.
The works of faith in our sanctification (ie. practice of justification - use of the mind of Christ) are of those who are justified and reborn of his Spirit by faith, and are perfected by Jesus' judgement; so while Jesus is always our substitute he also makes us like him so that we, while we live in this sinful world, shall be made forever fit for living with him in his Father's presence above...and on the new earth.
Cliff has still to accept that justification and sanctification are but the new creation we become by faith with his Spirit, and the new life we live by his Spirit, respectively: living and doing righteously, till Christ finishes making us Christlike and therewith concludes the investigative judgement - a moment even only the Father knows about in advance but decides with his Son has happened.
James, you've pointed out the real problem with this quarter's lesson, and pointed toward the real solution in how we understand our salvation: thank you.
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79559
09/29/06 09:44 PM
09/29/06 09:44 PM
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In relation to Wednesday's study, if someone were to ask you, how do you know you are saved, what would you say, and why?
I would ask, "What do you mean by saved?"
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79560
09/29/06 09:46 PM
09/29/06 09:46 PM
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Quote:
A big error is presented here, we are not saved by faith, but we are justified by faith, judge by works and saved by the grace of God.
How can the author made such a big error?
Maybe he had this in mind:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79561
09/29/06 10:33 PM
09/29/06 10:33 PM
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The way I personally think about the issue is that God will not take anyone to heaven who will not be happy there. Conversely, He will take everyone to heaven who will be happy there. God loves me, and will what is best for me.
Paul expressed the thought well when he said, "I know in whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able, to keep that which I've commited, unto him against that day."
(btw, I understand these were the last words of EGW, or close)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79562
09/29/06 11:23 PM
09/29/06 11:23 PM
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Colin, you say the IJ is to make us christlike. I agree. What troubled me about the final lesson was that it did not explain how the work of Christ in the Holiest accomplishes that - what is special about it. I haven't read the entire quarterly but I'm wondering, did Cliff quote any of those quotes that many Adventist's dread lately - you know the ones I mean - that we will stand without a mediator, (Vendon wrote a book called Never Without an Intercessor - maybe that was a chapter in one of his books), that we have to be spotless, that only those who are purified will live to see Christ come, etc, etc. If we had some more discussion on what she is saying in those difficult passages, balancing them with other texts and quotes, we would have a less distorted picture. Can you add anything that will tell us what is special about the work of Christ in the Holiest as opposed to His work in the Holy? Why does the mighty angel of Rev 18, according to Ellen White, urge us to direct our attention there?
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79564
09/30/06 02:57 AM
09/30/06 02:57 AM
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Regarding your question, Mark, there's a well known vision from EW:
I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace.
The love being spoken of here can only be agape.
I know you addressed your question to Colin, but I'm quite sure Colin would agree with what I'm presenting here, and understands the point I'm making, so I'll stop here and let him decide if he'd like to develop the thought further.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson Study #14 - The Meaning of the JUDGMENT TODAY
#79566
09/30/06 05:49 PM
09/30/06 05:49 PM
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Colin, you say the IJ is to make us christlike. I agree. What troubled me about the final lesson was that it did not explain how the work of Christ in the Holiest accomplishes that - what is special about it. I haven't read the entire quarterly but I'm wondering, did Cliff quote any of those quotes that many Adventist's dread lately - you know the ones I mean - that we will stand without a mediator, (Vendon wrote a book called Never Without an Intercessor - maybe that was a chapter in one of his books), that we have to be spotless, that only those who are purified will live to see Christ come, etc, etc.
Not a word of it, I'm afraid: it's a bit better than the usual story of Jesus substituting himself for us - our decision for faith is sealed and that faith is witnessed by our works, but of course they don't explain how we're sealed or what sealing involves for us.
As for Venden's book that you mention, check Larry's website for a critique of it, since Venden doesn't understand it either (do a search for it, it's not recent).
Quote:
If we had some more discussion on what she is saying in those difficult passages, balancing them with other texts and quotes, we would have a less distorted picture. Can you add anything that will tell us what is special about the work of Christ in the Holiest as opposed to His work in the Holy? Why does the mighty angel of Rev 18, according to Ellen White, urge us to direct our attention there?
I thought you were the specialist on the temple & sanctuary service on earth and in heaven...but I'm sure we can compare notes. As Herb Douglass makes clear in his book Why Jesus Waits, the remnant saints (from all 'corners' of the earth) are trained to live by following the Spirit's leading till they have fully grown into Christlikeness, rather than having the Spirit taken from them after Jesus has finished mediating his likeness to them...!
Seems our theologians who are promoted in print are scared of the heights of the gospel that Ellen White refers to and spells out...it's not orthodox protestantism, is it. Bring out some of her other statements which you say balance the picture; I don't think the ones you mention here, above, are unbalanced, but then one has to understand the whole mechanism and purpose of salvation that Jesus uses where he is.
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