TE: I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith.

MM: Is baptism optional? If not, is it “requisite”. In other words, did Jesus require it? If a person refuses to be baptized, in spite of what Jesus said about it, will he be saved? I understand baptism is not what saves us.


TE: So your previous answer to my question as to when baptism became necessary was inaccurate? You said it was when he spoke to Nicodemus. Now you appear to be saying it was necessary before then.

MM: Here are the two statements I made about it (please note that neither statements pinpoints when it was necessary):

1. “Baptism was mandatory by the time Jesus discussed it with Nicodemus.’

2. “Jesus got baptized because it was a requirement. He confirmed it during His midnight meeting with Nicodemus.”

TE: So let me try again. At what point did water baptism become necessary for salvation, if this is indeed what you are suggesting.

MM: Is it necessary for salvation? “He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” What do you think?
…………………………

TE: I asked you if people who drank would be lost. Are you saying that everyone, without exception, who followed what Deuteronomy 14 records will be lost?

MM: Tom, do you think this passage gives us divine permission to consume strong drink?

TE: I asked you a question. When you answer my question, then I'll answer yours.

MM: I don’t know what to think of Deut 14:26. What does the SDABC say about it? I don’t have a copy. Is there one online?

………………………….

TE: Faith is not a rule. We are not saved by rules.

MM: I believe God saves us according to specific rules and principles. He adheres to these rules. Except, of course, there have been times when He bent them.

……………………………..

TE: No. God has always treated sins of ignorance the same way.

MM: Jesus died for sins of ignorance the same as for intentional or unintentional sins. Winking doesn’t do away with the death penalty.

TE: So let me try again. At what point did water baptism become necessary for salvation, if this is indeed what you are suggesting.

MM: Is it necessary for salvation? “He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” What do you think?

I think you didn't answer my questions!

At what point did baptism become necessary? (you haven't answered this). By "necessary," do you mean in order to be saved? Necessary for what?


…………………………

TE: I asked you if people who drank would be lost. Are you saying that everyone, without exception, who followed what Deuteronomy 14 records will be lost?

MM: Tom, do you think this passage gives us divine permission to consume strong drink?

TE: I asked you a question. When you answer my question, then I'll answer yours.

MM: I don’t know what to think of Deut 14:26. What does the SDABC say about it? I don’t have a copy. Is there one online?

This still isn't answering my question, which is if everyone who drinks will be lost.

………………………….

TE: Faith is not a rule. We are not saved by rules.

MM: I believe God saves us according to specific rules and principles. He adheres to these rules. Except, of course, there have been times when He bent them.

You have this, IMO, completely backwards. The principles reflect God's character. God's character doesn't change, so the principles which reflect His character don't change either. There are no exceptions to these principles, because His character knows no exceptions. He is always kind, gracious, compassionate, merciful, walks the second mile, turns the other cheek; in short, He is always like Jesus Christ was during His earthly sojourn with us. The principles which Jesus Christ lived out are the principles by which God, not sometimes, but always, acts.
……………………………..

TE: No. God has always treated sins of ignorance the same way.

MM: Jesus died for sins of ignorance the same as for intentional or unintentional sins. Winking doesn’t do away with the death penalty.

You must have some reason for writing this, but it certainly doesn't follow the train of thought, which was you saying that God makes exceptions to the rules by which he saves us, my denying that, your asking me a question as a follow, as an example of an exception, and my denying that.

TE: I think you didn't answer my questions!

MM: I’m not sure that I can. Precisely when baptism became a “requisite” step of conversion is not, so far as I know, pinpointed. Do you know?

TE: At what point did baptism become necessary? (you haven't answered this). By "necessary," do you mean in order to be saved? Necessary for what?

MM: The quote I posted answers these questions. Do you agree? If not, what did Jesus mean? “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)


TE: This still isn't answering my question, which is if everyone who drinks will be lost.

MM: Only God knows who will be saved and who will be lost. I suppose it depends on why, in spite of the fact God strictly prohibited it, they chose to drink alcoholic beverages. By the way, the following quote explains Deut 14:16.


TE: There are no exceptions to these principles, because His character knows no exceptions.

MM: I disagree. God has made plenty of exceptions to certain rules. Making exceptions, however, is part of His character. But at a cost. God cannot just disregard a rule because He wants to. To earn the right to wink at sinful behavior Jesus had to pay the death penalty for their sins of ignorance.

It is the death of Jesus that gives God the legal right to wink at sins of ignorance, that is, to make exceptions to the rule. Again, the rule requires God to punish and destroy people who violate the laws of God. But by allowing Jesus to pay our sin debt, to suffer our death penalty for us, God can justifiably wink at sins of ignorance.

TE: I think you didn't answer my questions!

MM: I’m not sure that I can. Precisely when baptism became a “requisite” step of conversion is not, so far as I know, pinpointed. Do you know?

If you mean "conversion" as Sister White used the term, which is inclusive of a public confession, then it became "requisite" when Jesus gave the great commission to go baptizing in His name. At least, this is the first that I am aware of His making this command.

If you mean "conversion" as in "born again," or "converted" in normal parlance, it isn't requisite at all, since conversion is entirely an inward experience, which is evidenced by outward actions.

For example, Zechariah was converted when he responded to the Holy Spirit. He repented and accepted Christ as his personal savior. His conversion was made evident by his promise to pay back four fold I think he said anyone he had wronged. That was evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit upon him. However, he did not have to wait until he actually gave any money back to be converted. Nor was his conversion dependent upon the promises he made. The promises he made was evidence of his conversion. Similarly, our baptism is evidence of the righteousness we have by faith in Christ.

This is exactly, to the letter, the same argument that Paul used to explain why circumcision was not a prerequisite to salvation. If you follow Paul's argument as applied to circumcision (in particular, when Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness, this was *before* Abraham was circumcised; that's a key to Paul's argument.) and apply it to baptism, then you have an explanation of the relationship between baptism and salvation.

TE: At what point did baptism become necessary? (you haven't answered this). By "necessary," do you mean in order to be saved? Necessary for what?

MM: The quote I posted answers these questions. Do you agree? If not, what did Jesus mean? “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

No, I still don't know what you think. Are you saying that a person has to be baptized in order to be saved? What I believe is as I said, that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, and baptism is a public expression of that faith. I believe this has always been the position of the SDA church.



Here is belief number 15:



I believe this is correct.

Quote:
Repentance, faith, and baptism are the requisite steps in conversion. . . . As Christians submit to the solemn rite of baptism, He registers the vow that they make to be true to Him. This vow is their oath of allegiance. {FLB 145.3}

Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. {FLB 145.4}

TE: This still isn't answering my question, which is if everyone who drinks will be lost.

MM: Only God knows who will be saved and who will be lost. I suppose it depends on why, in spite of the fact God strictly prohibited it, they chose to drink alcoholic beverages. By the way, the following quote explains Deut 14:16.

Quote:
Regarding shakar in Deuteronomy 14: 26, many translations do translate shakar "strong drink." However, some have "similar drink" (see the New King James). There is obviously an intended distinction being made between the "wine" and "shakar." The question is, what is the distinction. Is God not only allowing intoxicating drink but actually telling them to go buy it when God considers strong drink something concerning which man is to totally avoid (Prov. 23: 31)?

I believe the harmonious answer to the distinction between "wine" and "shakar" in Deuteronomy 14: 26 is seen in the celebrated scholar Patton's work, Bible Wines, pg.. 62: "Shakar (sometimes written shechar, shekar) signifies sweet drink expressed from fruits other than the grape and drunk in an unfermented or fermented state. It occurs in the Old Testament twenty-three times...." Since God prohibited the unnatural fermentation of juices for simple human intoxication, I must understand shakar in Deuteronomy 14: 26 to simply mean unfermented or sweet juices other than juice from the grape. Deuteronomy 14 26, then, would be a case of shakar being used for sweet juice other than juice from the grape ("similar drink," NKJV).

http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR121.htm

Strong's has "strong drink, intoxicating drink, fermented or intoxicating liquor". The KJV translates the word "strong drink" 21 times, "strong wine" once, and "drunkard" once. If it's a fruit drink, I don't know how "drunkard" could be applied to it.

Divorce would be another example. Can a divorced person be saved ? How about if (s)he's remarried?

I'm just making the point that there are many exception to your rule, so many that it's difficult to think of the rule ever applying. That is, there has never been a person to whom, when they were converted, every sinful habit they had cultivated since birth was revealed.

TE: There are no exceptions to these principles, because His character knows no exceptions.

MM: I disagree. God has made plenty of exceptions to certain rules. Making exceptions, however, is part of His character.

God says, "I am the Lord. I change not." He didn't say, "I am the Lord. Making exceptions is a part of My character."

The whole concept of principles having exceptions doesn't make sense, IMO. Let's take a principle at random. "Thou shalt not covet." When should exceptions to this principle be made?

But at a cost. God cannot just disregard a rule because He wants to. To earn the right to wink at sinful behavior Jesus had to pay the death penalty for their sins of ignorance.

Any evidence of this? In particular, that God could not wink at sin until Christ paid the death penalty? This seems to be the exact opposite of what happened.

It is the death of Jesus that gives God the legal right to wink at sins of ignorance, that is, to make exceptions to the rule.

I thought you said making exceptions was a part of God's character. Why would God need permission to fashion His character in a certain way from Christ?

Again, the rule requires God to punish and destroy people who violate the laws of God.

You must not be talking about the turn the other cheek rule, or the walk the second mile rule, or the forgive seventy times seven rule, or the love your enemies rule, or the "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" rule.

But by allowing Jesus to pay our sin debt, to suffer our death penalty for us, God can justifiably wink at sins of ignorance.

Quote:
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." In the ages of darkness that had preceded the advent of Christ, the divine Ruler had passed lightly over the idolatry of the heathen; but now, through His Son, He had sent men the light of truth; and He expected from all repentance unto salvation, not only from the poor and humble, but from the proud philosopher and the princes of the earth. {AA 239.1}

TE: If you mean "conversion" as Sister White used the term, which is inclusive of a public confession, then it became "requisite" when Jesus gave the great commission to go baptizing in His name. At least, this is the first that I am aware of His making this command.

MM: Sounds reasonable. Thank you.

...................

MM: The quote I posted answers these questions. Do you agree? If not, what did Jesus mean? “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

TE: Are you saying that a person has to be baptized in order to be saved? What I believe is as I said, that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, and baptism is a public expression of that faith.

MM: I am saying that Jesus made getting baptized a requirement to enter into the kingdom of God. See John 3:5 quoted above and FLB 145 quoted below. Does it mean baptism is optional? (Yes or No please.)

FLB 145
Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. {FLB 145.4}

TE: I'm just making the point that there are many exception to your rule, so many that it's difficult to think of the rule ever applying.

MM: God prohibits drinking alcoholic beverages. Deut 14:26 is not an exception. The rules and principles that regulate how God can legally and justifiably save sinners are not mine.

TE: That is, there has never been a person to whom, when they were converted, every sinful habit they had cultivated since birth was revealed.

MM: Don’t blame God for it. True conversions are rare. “The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world.” Peter, Paul, and John are just a few who experienced the miracle of rebirth in accordance with SC 29. That is, “every” sinful cultivated habit was revealed and confessed and crucified by the time they were born again. No sinful cultivated habits were overlooked by God to be revealed to them later on, after years of sinning ignorantly.


TE: The whole concept of principles having exceptions doesn't make sense, IMO. Let's take a principle at random. "Thou shalt not covet." When should exceptions to this principle be made?

MM: Only God can make exceptions to the rules and principles that regulate how He can legally and justifiably save sinners who died before He was able to reveal to them all of their sins of ignorance.

TE: Any evidence of this? In particular, that God could not wink at sin until Christ paid the death penalty? This seems to be the exact opposite of what happened.

MM: Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of world – His death was efficacious before our first parents sinned.

TE: I thought you said making exceptions was a part of God's character. Why would God need permission to fashion His character in a certain way from Christ?

MM: God cannot disregard the rules and principles governing how He must handle the sin problem.

TE: You must not be talking about the turn the other cheek rule, or the walk the second mile rule, or the forgive seventy times seven rule, or the love your enemies rule, or the "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" rule.

MM: Such rules and principles are based on the fact Jesus paid our sin debt. Otherwise, the law requires God to punish and destroy sinners the instant they sin. Even you agree that the death of Jesus bought us probation.

TE: If you mean "conversion" as Sister White used the term, which is inclusive of a public confession, then it became "requisite" when Jesus gave the great commission to go baptizing in His name. At least, this is the first that I am aware of His making this command.

MM: Sounds reasonable. Thank you.

!

...................

MM: The quote I posted answers these questions. Do you agree? If not, what did Jesus mean? “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

TE: Are you saying that a person has to be baptized in order to be saved? What I believe is as I said, that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, and baptism is a public expression of that faith.

MM: I am saying that Jesus made getting baptized a requirement to enter into the kingdom of God. See John 3:5 quoted above and FLB 145 quoted below. Does it mean baptism is optional? (Yes or No please.)

I agree with what Sister White wrote, that it is a sign of entrance into the kingdom. I do not agree that it is necessary to enter into the kingdom, if entering into the kingdom means being converted (in the inward sense).

FLB 145
Christ has made baptism the sign of entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He has made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. {FLB 145.4}

TE: I'm just making the point that there are many exception to your rule, so many that it's difficult to think of the rule ever applying.

MM: God prohibits drinking alcoholic beverages. Deut 14:26 is not an exception. The rules and principles that regulate how God can legally and justifiably save sinners are not mine.

Glad you recognize this! The principles that regulate how God saves sinners are simple. "Thou shalt believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Salvation if by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

TE: That is, there has never been a person to whom, when they were converted, every sinful habit they had cultivated since birth was revealed.

MM: Don’t blame God for it.

Why would I blame God for something that doesn't happen?

True conversions are rare. “The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world.” Peter, Paul, and John are just a few who experienced the miracle of rebirth in accordance with SC 29. That is, “every” sinful cultivated habit was revealed and confessed and crucified by the time they were born again.

SC 29 does not say that. Also, it's an absolute statement. It doens't have exceptions. It's describing the process of actual conversions.

No sinful cultivated habits were overlooked by God to be revealed to them later on, after years of sinning ignorantly.

Like smoking, drinking, or polygamy? or baptism (for those who lived before Christ made it known publicly that baptism had become a requirement). Or divorce? Or breaking the Sabbath? Or taking the Lord's name in vain? (e.g. saying "gee!" without realizing that this is short for Jesus.) Or not taking care of one's body? (e.g. not exercizing properly, or poor dietary habits)?

Regarding the years of sinning ignorantly, there's no need for these things to take years, but they will take some time. God dispenses truth as fast as we are willing and able to accept it. But He doesn't give it to us all at once. That would blow us away. He reveals things to us as we are willing and able to accept them.

Quote:
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}

TE: The whole concept of principles having exceptions doesn't make sense, IMO. Let's take a principle at random. "Thou shalt not covet." When should exceptions to this principle be made?

MM: Only God can make exceptions to the rules and principles that regulate how He can legally and justifiably save sinners who died before He was able to reveal to them all of their sins of ignorance.

Where is there any statement in Scripture (or elsewhere) that says that God makes exceptions to how He saves people?

TE: Any evidence of this? In particular, that God could not wink at sin until Christ paid the death penalty? This seems to be the exact opposite of what happened.

MM: Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of world – His death was efficacious before our first parents sinned.

This points out that God had a plan in place to meet the sin problem, should it arise. But it says nothing about God earning the right to be able to wink at sins of ignornace.

TE: I thought you said making exceptions was a part of God's character. Why would God need permission to fashion His character in a certain way from Christ?

MM: God cannot disregard the rules and principles governing how He must handle the sin problem.

That's what I've been saying.

TE: You must not be talking about the turn the other cheek rule, or the walk the second mile rule, or the forgive seventy times seven rule, or the love your enemies rule, or the "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" rule.

MM: Such rules and principles are based on the fact Jesus paid our sin debt.

The rules I've mentioned? They're not based on the fact that Jesus paid our debt. They're based on God's character. They're based on the fact that God is kind and gracious, merciful and compassionate. Jesus' death for us is based on God's character as well. Everything God does is based on His character.

Otherwise, the law requires God to punish and destroy sinners the instant they sin. Even you agree that the death of Jesus bought us probation.

Nothing is above God. God does what He pleases, based on the attributes of His character. The law is an expression of that fact. Let's not get the cart before the horse! The law does not sit above God telling Him what He can or cannot do.

Regarding Jesus' buying us probation, what I believe is that had Christ not come to earth, sin would have wiped out the entire human race. For this reason, we each one, owe even our physical lives to Jesus Christ.

TE: I agree with what Sister White wrote, that [baptism] is a sign of entrance into the kingdom. I do not agree that it is necessary to enter into the kingdom, if entering into the kingdom means being converted (in the inward sense).

MM: Then what does “cannot enter” (John 3:5) and “must comply” (FLB 145) mean to you?

Whatever “enter into the kingdom of God” and “who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” means, it is clear to me that “cannot enter” and “must comply” means baptism is required, that it is not an option.

…………………………

MM: God prohibits drinking alcoholic beverages. Deut 14:26 is not an exception. The rules and principles that regulate how God can legally and justifiably save sinners are not mine.

TE: Glad you recognize this!

MM: Actually, I never doubted it. I have always believed that God prohibits drinking alcoholic beverages, and that Deut 14:26 is not an exception.

TE: The principles that regulate how God saves sinners are simple. "Thou shalt believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Salvation if by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

MM: This is only part of the formula, Tom. “You state this matter too strongly.” “God saves us under a law …”

FW 111
You state this matter too strongly. There are conditions to our receiving justification and sanctification, and the righteousness of Christ. I know your meaning, but you leave a wrong impression upon many minds. While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works. God saves us under a law, that we must ask if we would receive, seek if we would find, and knock if we would have the door opened unto us. {FW 111.1}


MM: True conversions are rare. “The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world.” Peter, Paul, and John are just a few who experienced the miracle of rebirth in accordance with SC 29. That is, “every” sinful cultivated habit was revealed and confessed and crucified by the time they were born again.

TE: SC 29 does not say that. Also, it's an absolute statement. It doens't have exceptions. It's describing the process of actual conversions.

MM: The SC 29 quote describes what happens prior to conversion. Here it is again:

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

MM: Again, this rare experience does not overlook certain sinful cultivated habits that God plans to reveal to them later on when it is more convenient for them. Such an idea implicates God. It teaches that God is culpable, that God is to blame for the sinful cultivated habits they retain.

MM: No sinful cultivated habits were overlooked by God to be revealed to them later on, after years of sinning ignorantly.

TE: Like smoking, drinking, or polygamy? or baptism (for those who lived before Christ made it known publicly that baptism had become a requirement). Or divorce? Or breaking the Sabbath? Or taking the Lord's name in vain? (e.g. saying "gee!" without realizing that this is short for Jesus.) Or not taking care of one's body? (e.g. not exercizing properly, or poor dietary habits)?

MM: Let’s examine your list more closely:

1. Smoking. If God chooses not to reveal this sin to people before they are born again, then that is His prerogative. It is not clearly prohibited in the Bible. In this day and age, however, it is highly unlikely that a pastor or evangelist would choose not to share it with them before they agree to be baptized.

2. Drinking. Alcohol is clearly prohibited in the Bible.

3. Polygamy. Multiple spouses is also clearly prohibited in the Bible.

4. Baptism. Jesus did not make baptism mandatory until the NT.

5. Divorce. Unremorseful, impenitent, shameless unfaithfulness and/or abandonment are just causes for divorce and remarriage.

6. Sabbath-breaking. Breaking the Sabbath is prohibited in the Bible.

7. Taking the Lord's name in vain. The third commandment is required in the Bible.

8. Not taking care of one's body. Certain aspects of diet and health are required in the Bible. Others are not so clear.

TE: Regarding the years of sinning ignorantly, there's no need for these things to take years, but they will take some time. God dispenses truth as fast as we are willing and able to accept it. But He doesn't give it to us all at once. That would blow us away. He reveals things to us as we are willing and able to accept them.

MM: I believe this gracious, gradual process of revelation occurs during the long, “patient, protracted process” of conversion – before we experience the miracle of rebirth.

………………………..

MM: Only God can make exceptions to the rules and principles that regulate how He can legally and justifiably save sinners who died before He was able to reveal to them all of their sins of ignorance.

TE: Where is there any statement in Scripture (or elsewhere) that says that God makes exceptions to how He saves people?

MM: Romans 2:13-15. Luke 23:39-43.

…………………………

TE: Any evidence of this? In particular, that God could not wink at sin until Christ paid the death penalty? This seems to be the exact opposite of what happened.

MM: Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of world – His death was efficacious before our first parents sinned.

TE: This points out that God had a plan in place to meet the sin problem, should it arise. But it says nothing about God earning the right to be able to wink at sins of ignornace.

MM: I believe it gives God the legal right to handle the sin problem in all its forms.

…………………………..

TE: You must not be talking about the turn the other cheek rule, or the walk the second mile rule, or the forgive seventy times seven rule, or the love your enemies rule, or the "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" rule.

MM: Such rules and principles are based on the fact Jesus paid our sin debt.

TE: The rules I've mentioned? They're not based on the fact that Jesus paid our debt. They're based on God's character. They're based on the fact that God is kind and gracious, merciful and compassionate. Jesus' death for us is based on God's character as well. Everything God does is based on His character.

MM: If Jesus had not paid our sin debt from the foundation of the world, God would have been forced, by law, to punish and destroy our first parents before the rest of us were born.

TE: Nothing is above God. God does what He pleases, based on the attributes of His character. The law is an expression of that fact. Let's not get the cart before the horse! The law does not sit above God telling Him what He can or cannot do.

MM: It’s how God established things. It is necessary to have a third party, as it were, to establish what is right and righteous. Otherwise, the Devil could accuse God of making up the rules to serve Himself. As such, the law is an unbiased witness.

TE: Regarding Jesus' buying us probation, what I believe is that had Christ not come to earth, sin would have wiped out the entire human race. For this reason, we each one, owe even our physical lives to Jesus Christ.

MM: Amen! The “entire human race” consisted of two people – Adam and Eve.

MM: No sinful cultivated habits were overlooked by God to be revealed to them later on, after years of sinning ignorantly.

JB: Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. It remains therefore that what the Lord works to establish is: "faith".

MM: John, where do you stand? Does God wait to reveal certain sinful cultivated habits until it is convenient for baptized church members to confess and crucify them? to acquire or accumulate the necessary "faith" (you mentioned above) to confess and crucify them?