"The work of the people of God is to prepare for the events of the future, which will soon come upon them with blinding force. In the world gigantic monopolies will be formed. Men will bind themselves together in unions that will wrap them in the folds of the enemy. A few men will combine to grasp all the means to be obtained in certain lines of business. Trades unions will be formed, and those who refuse to join these unions will be marked men.--Letter 26, 1903. {2SM 142.2}


"These unions are one of the signs of the last days. Men are binding up in bundles ready to be burned. They may be church members, but while they belong to these unions, they cannot possibly keep the commandments of God; for to belong to these unions means to disregard the entire Decalogue." {2SM 143.3}


"The trades unions and confederacies of the world are a snare. Keep out of them, and away from them, brethren. Have nothing to do with them. Because of these unions and confederacies, it will soon be very difficult for our institutions to carry on their work in the cities. My warning is: Keep out of the cities. Build no sanitariums in the cities. Educate our people to get out of the cities into the country, where they can obtain a small piece of land, and make a home for themselves and their children...." {2SM 142.3}


"The trades unions will be one of the agencies that will bring upon this earth a time of trouble such as has not been since the world began."--Letter 200, 1903. {2SM 142.1}


"Satanic agencies are becoming more determined in their rebellion against God. The trade unions will be the cause of the most terrible violence that has ever been seen among human beings." Letter 90, 1904.


Are we awake to these warnings?

Gordon

In my experience, Adventists are frequently members of various labor unions. In my experience too, most are actively supportive of their union. IOW, they don't only pay their dues and quietly work, they support the union activities and agenda.

Most of us are probably familiar with the quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy that talk about the part that the Labor Unions are going to play in Last Day Events. Quotes such as this:







I've often wondered how this was all going to happen, as it seems that the Labor Unions strength has been diminishing, rather than strengthening. But, this morning I came across this article, and posted it on our website:
The Come Back of the Labor Unions?
What do you think?

Internationally this is a difficult question. What is a Union? A Society?

Medical Society?

In some places it is impossible to find employment unless you are a member. In certain countries many social or retirement benefits are administered through the union. Even a SDA pastor gets his retirement wages through a union in a case I know of.

As you said, Johann, "In some places it is impossible to find employment unless you are a member..." That is why they are so dangerous.... No one should have to be a member in order to work and provide for their family...

What reasons does Ellen present for her view on Labour Unions? Are these problems still there?

Hello Servant,

Yes, I believe the trade unions will co-operate with the beast of Revelation 13, in the administration of his mark 'in the right hand or in the forehead'. (Revelation 13:16)

Gordon

Preacher Dee posted this informative link last November. Note the dishonest tactics employed to coerce and manipulate.

http://www.unionfacts.com/

Gordon

What is the reliability of this website? It obviously has an agenda..

Hello Thomas,

Ellen White also had an agenda. I know her agenda was to honour God and present these warnings for us. I am persuaded that His voice speaking through her pen is reliable. Other voices are less important even if they provide supporting evidence. If you study her work, you may become convicted as did I, that this is a prophet with a message.

Everyone has an agenda.

Gordon

I have no disagreement with your analysis of Ellens agenda. However, Ellen had her agenda in the context of the world she lived in. What I asked previously is if the circumstances or context of labour unions is the same in US today as it was during her time. For instance, if Ellen warned about labour unions because all labour union bosses wore pink tuxedoes, and for some reason it would be a sin to belong to an organisation whos boss wear a pink tux. Now, if that then has changed and today, no labour union boss would be caught dead wearing a pink tuxedo, then the reason for Ellens warning would be gone. Im sure youll understand my meaning if you try.
Also, in other countries where circumstances are others as Johann told about, does the same advice as is created for an American 19th century situation apply the same? If one lives in a country where membership in a labour union is mandated by law for all who are employed, what has precedence? Ellens warning against labour unions or Jesus mandate to give to Caesar what belongs to him and to God what belongs to Him aswell as Paul when he writes:

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

What is the difference between the trades unions and labor unions EGW speaks of?

EGW also warns against huge monopolies. Internationally the great American trade monopolies is the greatest fear of many. Do we refuse to make our purchases through these monopolies which she warns against in the same breath as unions?

Good Morning, Johann,
From what I've read, I would think that trade unions and labor unions would fall into the same category.

My husband was a US Postal Carrier for 17 years, and was one of the very few who were not in the Union.

Al was a very hard worker, he was known as the "running mailman", as he ran his route every day. He loved his job, but the Union didn't love him. They didn't like it that he would get a route that was scheduled to take 3 hours done in 1-1.5 hours.

The Unions don't encourage people to work hard or fast.

I didn't see this thread or I wouldn't have started a new one yesterday on the Labor Unions...perhaps Daryl may want to combine the two?

Sometimes it boggles my mind that so many SDA's think that when the Sunday Law comes in, that they won't "bow the knee". I'm afraid, when it comes right down to it, the majority will "bow the knee", as they have already been compromising most of their life, by doing other things we are told not to do, such as joining labor unions.

The two topics are now merged into one topic.

This site give some good information on Trade Unions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union

"world gigantic monopolies", "confederacies of the world", "Trade Unions".

Would the UN fall under confederacies of the world? Are any of the UN's actions is at all similar to that of Trade Unions? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid#Sanctions
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/19/un.nuclear.safrica.reut/index.html?eref=rss_world


http://www.stopthewall.org/boycott/bds/cupe.shtml

If the trade sanctions and boycots organised by the UN against Irak in the 1990ies makes it evil, what does USAs sanctions and boycots against Iran and Cuba make?

You tell me "if the trade sanctions and boycots organised by the UN against Irak in the 1990ies makes it evil", västergötland? Perhaps you have an opinion on "USAs sanctions and boycots against Iran and Cuba" as well?

Did I say anything was evil, did I even say that Trade Unions were evil? I do not recall that I gave an opinion.

I did give some information on how both the UN and Trade Unions flex their muscle. I do not believe that I voiced a "judgement". I just asked:

Crater, I foolishly assumed that your quotes where in context with the thread in general. I must try to remember to avoid such simpleminded assumptions in the future.

Yes you should.

Aren't monopolies generally trade monopolies?

The medical industry could be one of the greatest monopolies in the world. They make it almost impossible for natural remedies that are cheap and useful to enter the market, even if they serve the patients better than the regular commercial medications that are often worse than rat poison.

I agree that even the doctors are caught up in prescribing drugs as a result of all the incentives from the drug companies.

Danish TV revealed that the physicians get money from the medical companies for every prescription they write out for their particular drugs.

My husband use to say that some doctors are the drug pushers for these companies that make and sell the drugs they give to people. Well they do not give them but help sell them. Praise God that I have not had to have precribed medicines maybe 20 yrs.. been to long for me to even remember.

That is wonderful testimony, Avalee. Thank God, I can say the same. I'm so thankful for the health message that the Lord has so mercifully given us, or we would probably not be where we are today.

Yes, I agree that for the most part, the DR's are just "legal drug pushers". It is a real shame. They are very good at getting their patients on to one drug, than soon, on to two, and then on to more! It is a real racket!

Years ago I knew a person who went to two different doctors and was prescribed two different type of drugs, which she took at the same time. When she showed up at my doorstep, not making any sense, I knew something was wrong, but didn't really know that it was her two different drug prescriptions until later on.

Are we getting

Do we need to start a thread on physicians?

Seeing that two topics were merged together, the discussion on drug monopoly and physicians is on topic.

Check out MONSANTO. This is one SCARY MONOPOLY company that is working in bed with the Good ole USofA Government. former big wig Donald Rumsfeld helped bring the poison ASPERTAME to the world, who was he working for in 1993? SEARLE CORP., MONSANTO!
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=ENG20060827&articleId=3082

It may seem trite to bump these reminders. Some still dismiss fast fulfilling prophecy. Today's message is from Canada's new Treasury Board President, Stockwell Day. Referring here to union pensions in particular.

The Treasury Board holds the money bag, the Canadians' treasure. If you need a new road or hockey rink, here's the source. They also watch federal pensions and government investments. No jaw droppers here, just a foreshadow.

Public sector pensions:
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2010/02/17/stockwell-day-public-pensions.html

Without question, wage cuts and layoffs have humbled the unions. Pensions are all that remain.
__________________________________________________

"The work of the people of God is to prepare for the events of the future, which will soon come upon them with blinding force. In the world gigantic monopolies will be formed. Men will bind themselves together in unions that will wrap them in the folds of the enemy. A few men will combine to grasp all the means to be obtained in certain lines of business. Trades unions will be formed, and those who refuse to join these unions will be marked men.--Letter 26, 1903. {2SM 142.2}


"These unions are one of the signs of the last days. Men are binding up in bundles ready to be burned. They may be church members, but while they belong to these unions, they cannot possibly keep the commandments of God; for to belong to these unions means to disregard the entire Decalogue." {2SM 143.3}


"The trades unions and confederacies of the world are a snare. Keep out of them, and away from them, brethren. Have nothing to do with them. Because of these unions and confederacies, it will soon be very difficult for our institutions to carry on their work in the cities. My warning is: Keep out of the cities. Build no sanitariums in the cities. Educate our people to get out of the cities into the country, where they can obtain a small piece of land, and make a home for themselves and their children...." {2SM 142.3}


"The trades unions will be one of the agencies that will bring upon this earth a time of trouble such as has not been since the world began."--Letter 200, 1903. {2SM 142.1}


"Satanic agencies are becoming more determined in their rebellion against God. The trade unions will be the cause of the most terrible violence that has ever been seen among human beings." Letter 90, 1904.
_______________

Considering what the emphasis was on in this year's Religious Liberty message material, this is a timely and interesting post.

Daryl, please elaborate - How is the post related to this year's RL material?

Do you have a link or file?

____________

The overwhelming temptations of a pension fund.

Let's say you were given a very large pot of money for safekeeping - over 100 Billion Dollars.

Though some money is withdrawn (for pensions), replenishment continues apace (from worker's paycheques). It seems like the pot will never shrink, and since no one is carefully watching, and you'll soon switch jobs, can it really hurt to loan some to your friends, maybe 'borrow' some yourself?
___________

There is an Ellen White quote that was brought up by a professor speaking at Campmeeting years ago where I wish I had the source, maybe someone can find it, but the quote was talking about labor unions and while they appear to be a good thing that they will end up joining with the evils that they are designed to fight.

Sadly we have taken the warnings about Labor Unions and want to distance ourselves from them by joining with and supporting the evils that they were designed to fight.

As I understand Mrs. White the issue is not as much anti-labor union, as a warning that the labor unions were not going to be faithful and will end up forming an aliance with the evels they were designed to fight and if we get too involved with them we will find ourselves drawn into this aliance.

True indeed these unions have become international corporations in them selves. Ever notice how these huge international unions don't have huge international strikes, but only a small one here and there for apperence sake while the unions themselves have made agrements with the monopolies for years in the future.

While the Labor Unions started out fighting evil, they are developing into being a tool of this evil.

But sadly, once again the typical Adventist seems to look at these warnings about the union, become anti union and wanting to avoid the union we join with the evils that the unions were designed to fight.

We need to get our country places, build up independence, windmills, solar panels growing our own food so that we can maintain our freedom and not be forced to join with the economic forces of the last days were we can't buy or sell without the mark of the beast.

"Come out of her, my people" - Revelation 18:4.

If we build monasteries for ourselves out in the wilderness, who will be Gods hands and feet among the nations? Will we surrender that very central part of our discipleship to Christ to the other churches?

Today, what evils are we joining with that labor unions were designed to fight?

Two points come to mind:

1) In the same breath that EGW says to stay away from unions she also says stay out of the cities. How many of us have done that? Where is the discussion on that point?

2) Vastergotland was right in his observation that EGW's times are not our times, and times change. Today we have conscientious Adventists sueing the SDA church in order to be allowed to NOT WORK on Sabbath, at an SDA institution. Human rights inside the church fall well short of those outside the church. Unions protect rights.

JAK, I'll assume your question is sincere and not erecting a straw man, as so many do on this very topic.

Yes EGW wrote that God's people were to avoid unions - have nothing to do with them.

But she never wrote to "stay out of the cities." Many detractors frame her words this way and ridicule such 'unChristian' counsel, much like the scoffers who perished in the siege of Jerusalem.

Her solemn plea was to avoid living in the cities, but to visit them regularly to share the truth, and provide an avenue and means for searching souls to enter upon a country lifestyle. She enumerates the moral dangers of city living, both in her day and at the end of time, especially for families.

Ministry in cities is for the purpose of leading people to separate from the world by providing an alternative in the relative freedom of a rural setting. Very few will follow this advice, almost none within Adventism. Most pastors and church officials are urban dwellers - many have been converted to the world - and this is their influence among the congregations. They have no sense of urgency, no interest in this discussion.

"Conformity to worldly customs converts the church to the world; it never converts the world to Christ." - Great Controvery 509.

Either way, nobody does it.

It's your choice JAK. Don't wait on others. Those who believe the counsel will follow it.

I think this sounds like something everyone with the means to do it in America does. It is world-wide known as "suburbanism"..

Whether someone else doesn't follow something else doesn't discredit everything. Reminds me of gay marriage advocates who say that since there is so much divorce, then anything should go. No. Continual degrading doesn't help that which should be done.

Hi there, I thought this was interesting and something to watch for this coming May if they are still going to go ahead with this plan despite the leak. This is posted by a non-denominational Christian minister who watches for the signs of Jesus soon coming. His blog entry at his website can be found here

------

Disruptions in New York planned for May

A former SEIU labor official was taped at a secret meeting, telling of his plan to disrupt Wall Street and, in particular, J.P. Morgan Chase bank. He revealed that this would begin with some kind of rally in the first week of May.

This will be interesting to watch. Or perhaps it will be cancelled due to the leak.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/revealed...e-wealth-power/

The plan is to induce a Madison-style protest in New York City, the difference being that they will be on the offense, rather than playing defense (as in Madison).

It will be designed to encourage home owners to stop paying mortgages, to encourage college grads to refuse to pay back student loans ($1 Trillion), and to induce financial instability to collapse Wall Street.

He says (in the transcript): "Labor can’t lead it, but we can be a critical part of it. We do have money, we have millions of members who are furious, but I don’t think this kind of movement can happen unless actually the community groups and other activists take the lead."

He says that Labor Unions are no longer strong enough to lead such a movement. (No doubt this weakness is due to the Free Trade agreements that have shipped millions of jobs to other cheap-labor countries.) Also, he does not want the Unions to be caught up in lawsuits that would certainly be filed if Union involvement could be proven.

He continues: "[W]hat does the other side fear most? They fear disruption, they fear uncertainty. Every article about Europe says a riot in Greece, the markets went down. The folks that control this country care about one thing: how the stock market does; how the bond market does; and what their bonus is. So I think we weed out a very simple strategy: how do we bring down the stock market, how do we bring down their bonuses, how do we interfere with their ability to, to be rich. And if we don’t do, and that means you have to politically isolate them, economically isolate them and disrupt them."

"So, a bunch of us around the country are thinking about who would be a really good company to hate? We decided that would be JP Morgan Chase. …. And so we’re going to roll out over the next couple of months what will hopefully be an exciting campaign about JP Morgan Chase that is really about challenge the power of Wall Street. And so what we’re looking at is in the first week of May, we get enough people together – we’re starting now – to really have a week of action in New York with the goal of … I don’t want to go into any details because I don’t know which police agents are in the room, but the goal would be that we would roll out in New York the first week in May—"

All of this sounds strangely familiar from my reading of old-style Communist thinking. We know that Communists infiltrated the unions very early in order to hijack them for their own purposes. Their big enemy was Fascism, which promotes the reduction in the size and financial base of government (i.e., "tax cuts") in order that the huge, wealthy corporations and too-big-to-fail mega-banks can control those weak governments.

Of course, they did not realize that Communism was founded and financed by those same big banks in order to control both sides and scare the people into trading in their freedom for "security." The idea of creating two conflicting philosophies which would gather supporters for each side, and then controlling both of them, each offsetting the other, was promoted a long time ago by Hegel. He called it a "dialectic." It has worked very well over the centuries.

This centuries-old struggle used to be fought under the banners of Fascism vs. Communism. Now (at least in America) they are fought largely through proxies--the Republican and Democratic parties.

It appears that Mr. Lerner does not understand how his "hatred" is so useful to those who want to use it to grab more power for themselves. Or perhaps he does understand it and has been hired by the banking cartel to foment trouble in order that the government may have an excuse to declare martial law and grab the last vestiges of freedom that we have.

I do not know his motive, but my advice is to avoid getting caught up with either side of the planned conflict. Remember that only those with hatred or fear can be controlled. The Babylonian "elite" find both of these carnal motives very useful in their attempt to control the world.

We ourselves represent the Kingdom of God. It is a third option that is neither Republican nor Democratic, neither Fascist nor Communistic. It promotes the Monarchy of King Jesus who rules by Love, rather than by fear, and who unifies the people, rather than pitting one side against the other.

Well this is coming to the forefront...
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/16/union-strike-numbers-uaw-sag-wga-kaiser