On another site in this forum - "What Others Believe" - I've been surprised to find people seem to believe that obedience is a matter of will-power, and that we can choose to obey or disobey. (This may be interpreting more than was meant, but I need to contemplate what has been written a bit longer.) My understanding of the Adventist stance is that we believe we can't obey, and that justification, sanctification, and glorification are ALL the work of God. Our obedience occurs in response to our love for Him, and is empowered by the Holy Spirit. Anything outside of that is not righteousness, obedience, or anything else.
I found this quote on the Ellen G. White Estate site. It's not as directly relevant, but I've added emphasis to the part which I think is:

Faith and Works, page 87, paragraphs 1 & 3
Chapter Title: Obedience and Sanctification
True sanctification is nothing more or less than to love God with all the heart, to walk in His commandments and ordinances blameless. Sanctification is not an emotion but a heaven-born principle that brings all the passions and desires under the control of the Spirit of God; and THIS WORK IS DONE THROUGH OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR.
...all the praise and glory for that which is done THROUGH YOUR INSTRUMENTALITY will be given back to God.

Can anyone further enlighten me?
Regards,
Zyph.

Zyph, we don't, of ourselves, have the power to obey God. This is due to our carnal nature, the fallen nature which is at war (the bible uses the word enmity) with all that is holy.

Jesus give us a new nature when we respond to the call of the Holy Spirit in our hearts and we accept Jesus as our Saviour and see ourselves as sinners.

Then satan comes along with a temptation to do something we know is wrong. At that point we must make a choice-- are we going to remain loyal to God and obey Him, or are we going to give in to the temptation. When we choose to obey, we are given power to resist the temptation. We are not left alone to make the choice either. Even as satan is whispering his temptation in our ear, holy angels are whispering encouragment to resist the temptation. But we must choose.

Remember the words of Joshua? "Choose you this day whom he will serve."

------------------
For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.
_________________________

Linda

Jesus is the Saviour, but Saviour from what ?
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Can we save ourselves ?
Psalms 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

Job 40:
6 ¶ Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Genesis 3:
9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 ¶ And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
***********************************
All may find something to do. "The poor always ye have with you," (John 12:8), Jesus said, and none need feel that there is no place where they can labor for Him. Millions upon millions of human souls ready to perish, bound in chains of ignorance and sin, have never so much as heard of Christ's love for them. Were our condition and theirs to be reversed, what would we desire them to do for us? All this, so far as lies in our power, we are under the most solemn obligation to do for them. Christ's rule of life, by which every one of us must stand or fall in the judgment, is, "Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." Matt. 7:12. {DA 640.3}

The Saviour has given His precious life in order to establish a church capable of caring for sorrowful, tempted souls. A company of believers may be poor, uneducated, and unknown; yet in Christ they may do a work in the home, the neighborhood, the church, and even in "the regions beyond," whose results shall be as far-reaching as eternity. {DA 640.4}

It is because this work is neglected that so many young disciples never advance beyond the mere alphabet of Christian experience. The light which was glowing in their own hearts when Jesus spoke to them, "Thy sins be forgiven thee," they might have kept alive by helping those in need. The restless energy that is so often a source of danger to the young might be directed into channels through which it would flow out in streams of blessing. Self would be forgotten in earnest work to do others good. {DA 640.5}

Those who minister to others will be ministered unto by the Chief Shepherd. They themselves will drink of the living water, and will be satisfied. They will not be longing for exciting amusements, or for some change in their lives. The great topic of interest will be, how to save the souls that are ready to perish. Social intercourse will be profitable. The love of the Redeemer will draw hearts together in unity. {DA 641.1}

When we realize that we are workers together with God, His promises will not be spoken with indifference. They will burn in our hearts, and kindle upon our lips. To Moses, when called to minister to an ignorant, undisciplined, and rebellious people, God gave the promise, "My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest." And He said, "Certainly I will be with thee." Ex. 33:14; 3:12. This promise is to all who labor in Christ's stead for His afflicted and suffering ones. {DA 641.2}

Love to man is the earthward manifestation of the love of God. It was to implant this love, to make us children of one family, that the King of glory became one with us. And when His parting words are fulfilled, "Love one another, as I have loved you" (John 15:12); when we love the world as He has loved it, then for us His mission is accomplished. We are fitted for heaven; for we have heaven in our hearts. {DA 641.3}

But "if thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; if thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not He that pondereth the heart consider it? and He that keepeth thy soul, doth not He know it? and shall not He render to every man according to his works?" Prov. 24:11, 12. In the great Judgment day, those who have not worked for Christ, who have drifted along thinking of themselves, caring for themselves, will be placed by the Judge of the whole earth with those who did evil. They receive the same condemnation. {DA 641.4}

To every soul a trust is given. Of everyone the Chief Shepherd will demand, "Where is the flock that was given thee, thy beautiful flock?" And "what wilt thou say when He shall punish thee?" Jer. 13:20, 21. {DA 641.5}

****************************
In our own unconverted nature we are naturally like this first parts of these paragraphs, but through conversion we become like unto the underlined part.

"This is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light." They will not come to the light, for fear their deeds will be reproved. This is the position taken by many. Their names are in the church books; they observe a round of ceremonies; but they do not love the truth. They have been satisfied to stand at the door. They do not press their way into Christ's presence, to share with Him the glory of His royal life. Their characters are not brought into harmony with the truth. They have not that faith which works by love and purifies the soul. Evil speaking, evil surmising, dishonest actions, cast a dark shadow across their pathway. Their faith sinks into this shadow of shame, and they feel that they are separated from Christ. There is a sting in the conscience, a condemnation in the life. They feel a desire to hide away from God. Light has come into the world, but they love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. {ST, October 25, 1899 par. 8}

Is not this the reason of our dwarfed spirituality? Is not this the reason why we have so little faith? We live under a sense of condemnation. The time has come when it is for our eternal interest to believe in Christ. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." He is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." He says, "I will write My law in their hearts." In those who come to Him in faith He will create a divine principle of holiness which will rule in the soul, enlightening the understanding and captivating the affections. {ST, October 25, 1899 par. 9}

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Isaiah 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1st John 4:
7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1st John 5:

1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 ¶ This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

John 17:
1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Matthew 18:
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Luke 15:
1 ¶ Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Acts 5:
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

------------------
Edward F Sutton

Quote - "It will be no unpleasant task to be obedient to
the will of God when we yield ourselves fully to be directed by
His Spirit. "

From God's Amazing Grace

Do we choose the obedient act, based on our heart-change, or do we choose who will control us, and thus choose obedience?
Zyph.

I've understood "obedience" to be the fruit of faith. In Romans 6:16 Paul seems to suggest that "obedience [leads] unto righteousness." Putting two and two together, if my math is right, it appears the only kind of obedience we can generate (independent of the Spirit of God) is to surrrender ourselves to God's control, who then empowers us to experience the blessedness of righteousness.

Perhaps surrendering ourselves to God's control is a loose use of the word obedience, but it does seem to be necessary in order for God to work the miracle of righteousness in our lives. Otherwise, it would amount to force if we had no say in the matter.

But this should not give us the impression that right doing will be a simple thing after we have surrendered ourselves to the controlling influence of God. I find the idea that doing good comes easy to those who are "truly saved" insulting and offensive.

Fighting the good fight of faith has not been a light thing in my life, nor in the lives of my friends. But can it be argued that if it is truly of God and not of man that godliness should flow smoothly and without effort? If so, then why the admonition to labour, agonize, wrestle, and strive to enter the gates of heaven?

The tension between faith and works is a paradox, eh? At what point are we doing it ourselves, and at what point is it the fruit of faith? For me it's not always easy to tell. The results seems to be the same - i.e., I didn't become impatient (or whatever). To make it simple for myself I just give God the credit no matter what. Either way it's always amazing to me when I don't blow it. Thank you Jesus.

What do you think?

Maybe the "good fight of faith" is a battle plan, and not about fighting each little temptation. Maybe it's the groundwork we need to overcome, but not the overcoming. I don't believe Jesus ever found any sin attractive. Our idea of temptation is when something inside us responds to a situation, person, etc. I think temptation is an opportunity that presents, whether it hits a nerve in us or not. And aren't even our thoughts to be made captive? Only a miracle can take away our predisposition, and the accrued momentum, to sin. And I think the fight is to place ourselves constantly behind the One who does the fighting of sin for us. If I have the time, I can find some things to back that up, but I have to go to work soon.
Zyph.

I found this, and although it's not exactly what I'm looking for, I think it spells out a little of what I'm trying to say. I believe the fight of faith is not a fight to resist sinning. It's a fight to do the things we must do to grow that faith, and the desire to obey is a by-product. Obedience is a FRUIT of the Spirit, remember.

"All who dig for the treasure of truth will be imbued with the spirit of Christ. By beholding Him, they will be changed into the same image.
Those who make the word of God their counsellor, will realize the weakness of the human heart; but they will find courage in the assurance that the power of the grace of God is sufficient to subdue every unsanctified, unholy impulse. When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him. And when the Spirit of the Lord lifts up for His blood-bought heritage a standard against the enemy, the principles of the word of truth will bear sway in the life. Having surrendered themselves to the will of God, they reveal a faith that works by love, and purifies the soul. "

Loma Linda Messages, page 227

Zyph.

Jesus is both the author and finisher of our faith. Heb. 12
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The only thing we can do is choose to reject the calling of the Holy Spirit to enter into a relationship with Jesus. It's that simple.

Actually, it is love that initiates obedience for Jesus said in John 14:15, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Wow! I wish fighting the good fight of faith was as easy as it sounds. But obedience doesn't come so naturally for this kid. When I'm tempted to be impatience with traffic, or whatever, it takes alot effort on my part to keep my mind focused on Jesus and His love.

However, I do not believe that the temptation to be impatient, which exists in my mind in the form of a thought, is evil. It is my studied conclusion that tempting thoughts and feelings do not become sin until I desire or do it. Is that how you see it?

I like the idea that fighting the good fight of faith involves whatever it takes to keep our eyes on Jesus during the good and bad times. Rather than the good fight of sin, which would mean focusing on not doing wrong, instead of focusing on Jesus and what is right.

Does obedience begin with us or with God? Not an easy question to answer. It rests with us to respond to God's offer to make us holy, right? Well, isn't that a form of obedience? That is, responding to His influence? If so, then our responce is what allows God to empower us to experience obedience and righteousness. It seems pretty simultaneous doesn't it?

Daryl,
Do we love God enough to grit our teeth and resist the sins we want to commit? I know love is the motivation to desire a sinless life. But isn't sanctification ALL God's work? And don't we consent for God to change our desires so that in obeying Him we are simply carrying out our own heart desires? (That's a messed up SOP statement.) If we do something but our hearts are not in it, is it obedience?
Zyph.

If we do something but our hearts are not in it, that is legalism.

If we do something out of love, "If you love Me...", desiring to do it out of love for Him is not legalism. It is obedience resulting out of love for Him.

__________________________
Psalms 119:165 "Great peace
have they which love thy law:
and nothing shall offend them."

Daryl

He even gets us to the point where we love Him. He is the author, He initiates any desire we have for good. Most sins we commit are not a lack of obedience but a lack of trust.

Mike,
I think we consent for God to work in and through us. But consent is not obedience. That's all we really have the power to do. Consent is acknowleging (?spelling) that we are in the gutter, and yes, please, we would like someone to lift us out.
I'd like to share some Alcoholics Anonymous stuff with people here. Some may be familiar with their philosophy. It's truly righteousness (sobriety) by faith, and in terms of BIG sin, I think we can get a clearer picture of how God works in us "to will and do". Little sin must be dealt with in the same way, or we've muddied the waters.
I'll try to find something at work.
Daryl, we really need to stay in love with God, and then obedience is not a chore?
Zyph.

That's interesting that you believe "consent" isn't a form of obedience. I have always been under the impression that it is. I'll have to think on that.

Also, I'm not so sure that experiencing the fruit of the Spirit is as effortless as some say it is. Even when I am in the Spirit there is a struggle at times to stay connected to Jesus when I'm tempted. But I don't see this as evidence of failure. Didn't Jesus "suffer" (Heb 2:18) when He was tempted?

What are your thoughts?

Regarding consent - putting out your hand to accept a gift is an action, but it's not obedience. It's giving up on self. In the next millisecond, the desire to obey kicks in. (Zyph's theory of conversion! )
I think there is a huge struggle with our human nature, and the habit and momentum of sin. But while we may have to deal with some symptoms - e.g. the converted drug addict still has withdrawals to deal with - if God is driving, our COMMITMENT to sinlessness or sobriety is total. And people who work with addicts (me) will tell you that those who succeed are those who have made a decision that they don't want this lifestyle any more. But the fine detail here is that unless we are struggling to stay connected to God FIRST, no amount of effort on our part will separate us from our on-going addiction to sin. Fighting sin must be done by letting God change us as we absorb His word, and by serious prayer. I think if we wrestled with God, we wouldn't have to wrestle with sin. And obedience grows on the tree planted in righteousness.
When I became a Christian years ago, I stopped swearing. I only noticed it after quite a while. I didn't think about it. It left me. God was driving, I walked with Him, and He set the timing. Other things didn't go as easily, but the closer I stayed to Him, the easier the path was.
Jesus never struggled with the desire to sin. He was appalled by sin. He struggled in His human nature to maintain the connection with His Father, in order to overcome in the same way we must overcome.
Hence, your struggle to stay connected.
One more thought from your post - no tree struggles to bring forth fruit. It does or it doesn't. If it's in the wrong place, the fruit might not be great, but that can be fixed by the Gardener.
Zyph.

Zyph, I think you may have hit the nail on the head. If we keep our focus solely on Christ, then we are heading up the right path. If we focus on the negatives, the things that are going wrong, the curses instead of the blessings, the annoyances and the fears, that is what we will see, and I would venture to say that is the wrong path. Our focus is to be on Christ, not on the world or the things of the world. The Bible says "By beholding we become changed" and we must make diligent effort and give conscious thought to what we are beholding. I am I beholding the good in my life (Christ) or the bad in my life? If I am beholding the bad, the negative, the things that go wrong in my life, then how will I be changed? On the other hand, if I am beholding the good in my life, the blessings given to me by God, then how will that change me?

------------------
Sarah Moss
*Prayer Changes Things!*

You got it Sarah.

Again, I'm amazed at the idea that obedience comes easily to those who are in Christ. It just doesn't reflect the reality of my every day experience in Jesus. Maybe I'm just not understanding what the others are saying here? I don't know.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that I'm having trouble sinning and repenting. Not at all. I believe that in Christ the Holy Spirit empowers me to successfully recognize and resist sin, self and Satan. Thank you Jesus.

But like Job and others in Bible sometimes I come away from the conflict used up and spent. Victorious, yes, but pretty depleted at times. For me it often requires alot of effort and energy to keep myself connected to Jesus. But thank you Lord the power is available from on high channeled within my soul to stay connected to dear Jesus.

In my life I have found the Christian journey to be a battle and a march, a fight I am more than willing to engage for my Lord and Saviour. I believe God is blessed and His name honored and glorified in those who fight the good fight of faith (keeping our eyes on Jesus).

I am concerned with the notion that resisting temptation is easy for truly converted people. Isn't there a possibility that such a belief might be discouraging for Christians whose experience isn't that way? Do you know what I mean? Is sweating great drops of blood really an indication that things aren't as they should be?

I think the battle is real, and it is worse for some people because of their inherited tendencies. But the battle isn't against sinning. It's a battle to resist the urge to try to rely on works, and to do the opposite of fighting. We're to put on the whole armour of God and STAND, at least when it comes to sin. The battle is to come to Him, just as we are, every day, and surrender our will to Him. He hands our will back, energised and renewed. We work to maintain the connection with Him, and we live our lives spontaneously. Sin can be attractive, but as we grow closer to God, we develop a revulsion for it. And the more time we spend contemplating what God has done for us, and in prayer, using what we get from that in service to other people, the more we become like Him. The good/bad thing is that the closer we are to Him, the less we see in ourselves to like, and we realise how encompassed about with sin we actually are. I like the Alcoholics Anonymous saying, "Let go, and let God". The only way to truly overcome is to spend quality time with Him each day, and give Him permission to work His miracle of grace in us.
I like this little poem, and I hope it's okay to put it here. It's one I've seen on the wall of a rehabilitation centre, and holds the key to success.

"As children bring their broken toys, with tears, for us to mend,
I brought my broken dreams to God because He was my Friend.
But then, instead of leaving Him in peace to work alone,
I stayed around and tried to help in ways that were my own.
At last, I snatched them back, and cried, "How can You be so slow?"
"My child," He said, "What could I do? You never did let go."

It is a battle to allow God to will and do in us, because of the momentum of independence which consumes us. In Gethsemane, the battle wasn't against sinning. Jesus even said it. "Not my will, but Thine be done."
Zyph.

[This message has been edited by zyph (edited June 11, 2001).]

Mike it isn't as easy as it sounds because it isn't easy to keep our focus on Christ. We look at the problems or at the temptations instead of fixing our eyes on Him. Abraham is a classic example. God said I will give you a son, but Abraham looked away from the promise and tried to find his own solutions (adoption, Hagar etc.) We naturally try to do things without Christ, and that makes life real hard.

Thanx guys for a good discussion and such encouraging words. It's great being a part of the family of God. Jesus is a wonderful friend and Saviour, isn't He? And no matter how challenging life gets it is in my heart to stay with Jesus all the way to the pearly gates. When temptation tugs at my soul I will enlist all my God-given energy to keep my eyes on Jesus, and rejoice with Him as sin loses all power and appeal. Thank you Lord.