|
Forums118
Topics9,199
Posts195,636
Members1,323
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
5 registered members (dedication, Karen Y, Daryl, 2 invisible),
3,466
guests, and 12
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8160
08/08/05 01:21 AM
08/08/05 01:21 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2023
Veteran Member
|
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
|
|
The D of A quotes given show my point explicitly. It is in the revelation of character through the process of time and events that vindicates God. He doesn't have to "orchestrate" events to vindicate Himself. Truth exposes error. It's as simple as that. Nothing needs be orchestrated for truth to show that truth is right and error is wrong. All that needs happen is time, and the outcome is a forgone conclusion. God won the war by simply letting Lucifer show himself for who he is.
Is God active in the affairs of men? Of course He is, but that is for man's own good, not for His own vindication. Just as Satan exposed himself once and for all at the cross, God was vindicated at the cross. He didn't have to orchestrate anything. All He had to do was let Lucifer be himself. God didn't have to do anything but be Himself for Lucifer to expose himself.
Lucifer's hatred was so deep that all that had to happen was for Christ to come here and live, and the nature of the two adversaries would be exposed. You can't juxtapose hate and love and not see the difference. Hate will attack and try to kill love. It's the nature of the beast. No events need to be orchestrated for this to happen. It will happen just as surely as day follows night because evil cannot stand the presence of goodness.
This is shown in the history of the church too. When love for God grows dim the church is never persecuted. However, let the church really love God and be on fire for Him and persecution follows immediately. Why? Because evil hates good and will attack it.
As to all the quotes you gave in which you see God "orchestrating" events and people, I see God reacting to events and people's choices to help them see truth. I don't see it as "orchestrating events" at all. We are born without the ability to recognize God, and if God is to be just, He must give us the opportunity to see exactly who He is. It's for this reason that God intervenes. It's not to justify Himself, it's to save mankind.
|
|
|
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8161
08/08/05 01:56 AM
08/08/05 01:56 AM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Gary, I agree with you that Satan's own actions undermined his claim that we can experience peace and happiness apart from obeying God's law. But just because Satan cannot prove it doesn't mean it isn't so. He is, after all, only a created being. When Jesus became sin for us and laid down His life on the cross He accomplished what the Devil couldn't on his own, that is, Jesus proved beyond all doubt it is impossible to have sin and experience perfect peace. I'm not suggesting He sinned, but rather by becoming sin for us He demonstrated the ultimate results of sin. I noticed you didn't specifically address the insight presented in the following quote, originally posted above: quote:
God and Christ and the heavenly angels are working with intense activity to hold in check the fierceness of Satan's wrath, that God's plans may not be thwarted. God lives and reigns. He is conducting the affairs of the universe. {7T 14.1}
Why does God have to work so hard to prevent Satan from derailing His plans if, as you seem to believe, God doesn't have to do anything special to prevent the Devil from derailing His plans?
|
|
|
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8162
08/08/05 03:55 AM
08/08/05 03:55 AM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
MM, it appears plain to me that you are either intentionally twisting Gary's words or not paying attention to what he is saying. He is not saying that God doesn't take action to prevent Satan from doing anything he wants to. He argued against your way of putting things, which would have God orchestrating events in order to make Him look good. Gary's point was that God does not need to do this, because the truth itself will make evident God's true character. He never said or in any way implied that God does not act to thwart Satan's plans. In fact, the whole ministry of Christ was all about thwarting Satan's plans. If God did not act to thwart Satan's plans, then Christ would never have come, and the human race would have entirely perished.
Regarding your question to me as to how God can know that He will win the Great Controversy, and that man will do His part, I would say it is because God knows all things. I have never claimed there are things God does not know. At least not anything knowable. If God says He will win the Great Controversy without qualification, then it must be something knowable. This is in contrast to Christ's ministry being successful, which is something which God did qualify (Christ came at the risk of failure and eternal loss). God has not said there is a risk Christ might not come again, or that He won't win the Great Controversy (since Christ's victory at the cross).
|
|
|
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8163
08/08/05 04:24 AM
08/08/05 04:24 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2023
Veteran Member
|
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
|
|
quote:
God and Christ and the heavenly angels are working with intense activity to hold in check the fierceness of Satan's wrath, that God's plans may not be thwarted. God lives and reigns. He is conducting the affairs of the universe.
First, I must agree with Tom. It seems you are either deliberately ignoring what I've said, or just aren't even paying any attention to it all.
Second, why do God and His angels work to hold in check Satan's wrath? For God's personal gain? That seems to be your conclusion, for the basis of your entire argument so far is that God has entered into the Great Controversy for His own good, rather than for the good of His creation. At least it seems that way to me.
I have a couple of questions for you to answer.
1. Is God pure unselfishness? IOW's, is God altruistic, or is He concerned about His own welfare?
2. If God isn't altruistic and does things for His own gain, why does He care what His creation thinks about Him? So they will bow down and worship Him?
|
|
|
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8164
08/08/05 04:39 AM
08/08/05 04:39 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2023
Veteran Member
|
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
|
|
quote:
Since winning the great controversy depends on mankind choosing to do something, and if God does not know exactly what we will choose to do before we do it, how can you be sure man will act his part and that God will win the great controversy?
First, the Great Controversy has already been won. Satan unmasked himself. In doing that he lost the war for the truth about God became knowable for all.
Second. love is the most powerful motivator in the universe. That's what God used to win the Great Controversy.
Third, you made the point for us that we've been trying to show you. You provided the exact quote that said Satan beat himself. He unmasked his own character by his own actions and in so doing made his lies very apparent.
What did God do to "orchestrate" that? He sent His son to die for us. He expressed the love that lives and breathes in His very being. That was the sum of His "orchestration". Satan responded with what was in his own heart. God didn't make him do it. God didn't "orchestrate" his reaction to Jesus coming here. He simply allowed Satan to do what comes naturally to him.
What was God's motive in coming here as a man? To make Himself look good, or to save mankind? I'll be very interested in seeing your answer.
|
|
|
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8165
08/08/05 04:45 PM
08/08/05 04:45 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
quote:
He never said or in any way implied that God does not act to thwart Satan's plans.
And neither did I, instead I quoted Sister White who wrote, “God and Christ and the heavenly angels are working with intense activity to hold in check the fierceness of Satan's wrath, that God's plans may not be thwarted.” God acts to prevent Satan from thwarting His plans, not the other way around, that is, God isn’t acting to thwart Satan’s plans.
The difference is significant. God is doing everything necessary to prevent Satan from thwarting His plan to win the great controversy, which means He is orchestrating the outcome of the great controversy. In other words, if God doesn't actively and agressively fight to restrain Satan then He runs the risk of losing the great controversy.
quote:
I have never claimed there are things God does not know. At least not anything knowable. If God says He will win the Great Controversy without qualification, then it must be something knowable.
But if knowing the future outcome of the great controversy depends on knowing what we will choose to do, before we choose to do it, how can God, in light of your understanding of His knowledge of our future choices, know for sure we will act our part and that He will, consequently, win the great controversy?
I'm curious, if not dumbfounded (are you tempted to play with that word?), according to you theory, can God limit Himself as to what He knows about the future choices of FMAs? You said God didn't know if Jesus would choose to succeed on the cross, but then you said God does know we will choose to act our part in such a way that He will ultimately win the great controversy.
|
|
|
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8166
08/08/05 05:04 PM
08/08/05 05:04 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
quote:
... God has entered into the Great Controversy for His own good, rather than for the good of His creation.
Whatever is good for God is good for us, right? But to answer your questions, no, I do not believe God is only worried about His own reputation. He is completely unselfish, and self-sacrificing. But He is also completely jealous for the outcome of the great controversy, and He absolutely will not let Satan do anything that will thwart His plans to win. And Satan is well able to do it, but God will not allow it to happen.
quote:
First, the Great Controversy has already been won.
Why, then, are we still here? Why didn’t it end at the cross?
quote:
What was God's motive in coming here as a man? To make Himself look good, or to save mankind? I'll be very interested in seeing your answer.
Both. He came to demonstrate His goodness, and to save us. And, He has been in control of the great controversy since its inception. He has a specific plan to win, and He is not going to let anyone or anything stop Him from winning.
|
|
|
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8167
08/08/05 08:09 PM
08/08/05 08:09 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
MM: In other words, if God doesn't actively and agressively fight to restrain Satan then He runs the risk of losing the great controversy.
Tom: Which is exactly what Gary said. God wins the Great Controversy by revealing truth.
Old Tom: I have never claimed there are things God does not know. At least not anything knowable. If God says He will win the Great Controversy without qualification, then it must be something knowable.
MM: But if knowing the future outcome of the great controversy depends on knowing what we will choose to do, before we choose to do it, how can God, in light of your understanding of His knowledge of our future choices, know for sure we will act our part and that He will, consequently, win the great controversy?
Tom: Because He knows everything.
MM: I'm curious, if not dumbfounded (are you tempted to play with that word?), according to you theory, can God limit Himself as to what He knows about the future choices of FMAs?
Tom: No, He doesn't limit Himself. He knows all the choices FMA's can make.
MM: You said God didn't know if Jesus would choose to succeed on the cross,
Tom: I didn't say that. Correct? You said I said that, but I didn't say that.
MM: but then you said God does know we will choose to act our part in such a way that He will ultimately win the great controversy.
Tom: God has told us He will win, so He must know He will win. We can delay Christ's coming, which we have, but it seems He will without doubt come again. Eventually God will have a people who respond to Him, who follow the lamb whereever He goes.
|
|
|
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8168
08/08/05 09:35 PM
08/08/05 09:35 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2023
Veteran Member
|
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
|
|
quote:
Why, then, are we still here? Why didn’t it end at the cross?
So, you don't actually believe that the devil unmasking himself guaranteed his defeat? He has never had more than one weapon to use that could possibly defeat God. That weapon was his deceit about who really loved God's creation--God or him--and when he committed murder at the cross that once and for all time exposed his lies to the light of day. There is no way he can now win, for the entire universe, except for his followers here on earth, now see him for exactly what he is. What chance does he have? He's lost any chance of causing disaffection in the rest of the universe? The war is won. Don't you read the SOP? ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
Do you actually believe he can overpower God? That's the only route left open to him. Truth defeated his only real weapon at the cross. He has nothing left with which to defeat God. He's just too full of hatred to give up even though he knows he's lost.
You had an interesting answer to my question. Somehow you see saving mankind and vindicating God's character as separate events. Why? Coming to save mankind vindicated God! He vindicated His character by simply showing who He is in juxtaposition to the devil's character, and the cross expressed that perfectly. It showed precisely who was was telling the truth.
What could vindicate God's character more than to come for no other reason than to save mankind? His altruism is the very best argument there is to vindicate Him. I'll be very interested to see your response.
I think I know why you're taking the position you're taking. It has to do with man reflecting God's character if you're who I think you are. However, this I see as a battle still to be won, not the war. Why? Because it is part and parcel of saving mankind from sin and the devil. Giving man the victory over sin isn't separate from saving him. Thus I don't see it as a separate item/goal.
|
|
|
Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8169
08/08/05 10:08 PM
08/08/05 10:08 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
Coming to save mankind vindicated God! He vindicated His character by simply showing who He is in juxtaposition to the devil's character, and the cross expressed that perfectly. It showed precisely who was was telling the truth.
Yes! This goes along with what Paul wrote in Romans 3.
quote:
3 But what if some of them were not faithful? Does this mean that God will not be faithful? 4 Certainly not! God must be true, even though all human beings are liars. As the scripture says, "You must be shown to be right when you speak; you must win your case when you are being tried." (GNB)
and then later in vs. 26:
quote:
In this way God shows that He himself is righteous and that He puts right everyone who believes in Jesus.
In setting us right with Himself, God has demonstrated His own righteousness. He killed two birds with one stone, so to speak. He both solved the problem of man (man could only be reconciled to God by seeing the truth about Him) and of the universe, by revealing the same truth. Through the blood of His cross, God accomplished the reconciliation of beings on earth, and unfallen beings (Col 1:20).
quote:
1:20 Through the Son, then, God decided to bring the whole universe back to himself. God made peace through his Son's blood on the cross and so brought back to himself all things, both on earth and in heaven.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
