What is the timing of the Fall of Lucifer?

From my reading of Ezekiel 28:11 to 19 I came to wonder about the timing of the Fall of Lucifer in relation to the creation of this world and the Garden of Eden.

I am focusing on Ezekiel 28:13 which says:



The SDA Bible Commentary states the following:



I had always thought that Lucifer had fallen prior to the creation of this world.

With the above verse and SDA Commentary quotes in mind, I now have some more reading to do.

Do any of you reading this have any thoughts on this to share here?

From my reading so far from the SOP references provided, I am having a hard time accepting what the SDA Bible Commentary has said about the Fall of Lucifer taking place after the creation of both this world and the Garden of Eden, unless Ezekiel 28:13 in regards to the garden of eden is specifically referring to the Garden of Eden that was created on this Earth.

"The creation of our earth, the placement of our first parents in Eden, occurred subsequent to his fall."

The SDABC is verifying that Lucifer's fall occurred before our first parents were created and placed in Eden.

Upon what is the SDABC basing that statement?

The best interpreter of Scripture is the Holy Spirit. The secound best is the bible itself. Have you consulted those?

And then there is also the inspired writings of EGW.

If you read my earlier posts, your question would have been answered before even posing it, as I have looked at the text in question, the comments to it made by the SDACC, and the writings of EGW in relation to that text, however, I am having a problem with that particular comment made in the SDACC, which is why I asking others thoughts on this.

As far as the Holy Spirit goes, I like to think that the Holy Spirit impresses all of us, which is another reason why I asked for others thoughts on this.

This is saying that "Eden" is not dealing with the Garden of Eden, but in a more general sense with the dwelling place of God. The SDABC is arguing against the idea that Lucifer did not fall until after Adam and Eve fell in the garden of Eden. They just weren't very clear in expressing their thought. Here's what they are saying, in my own words:

"Eden is dealing with the dwelling place of God as a general term. It's not specifically dealing with the Garden of Eden. The text is not saying that Lucifer didn't fall until after man's fall in the garden of Eden, which we know can't be the case because of (this, that, and the other thing)."

They (SDABC) give as example of "Eden" being used to refer to the dwelling place of God, PP 35, which says:



Here we see EGW applying "Eden" to Lucifer at a time when Lucifer was in heaven.

Does that make sense?

Who Ive come to understand once said that her writings should only be consulted on theological questions after an exhaustive biblestudy...Well, I did read about all of those and they are exactly why I wrote what I wrote. Reading Ezekiel isnt exactly an exhaustive bibestudy on the fall of satan and the angles. For instance, have you considered ezekiel in connection with revelation? Are there other books of scripture that adress the issue?
The comments made by SDACC and EGW unfortunately do not count as scripture. How about reading the book of ezekiel and any other relevant part of the bible and then lock yourself into whereever you have your prayerroom and pray over it for a couple of days?

Since Jesus is the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world, which I take to be before the foundations of the world were created, then this plan was to counter what was coming, in which sin enters the world after the fall of Adam and Eve. This is found in Revelation, and we also read that Jesus saw satan fall as lightning from heaven, and Revelation says he was hurled down to the earth. When exactly? The earth was void and without form way before the foundations were laid, it was what appears to me as a blob of water, a water sphere for lack of a better word.
John Milton in his book Paradise Lost describes that the devil was in "the abyss" or there abouts. He would apparently wake up from visions and have his daughters write what he saw, his book was written in 1603.
Anyways aside from all that, for the devil to be cast out of heaven would mean that while he was in heaven all this business of his falling ocurred in heaven, and this doesn't happen overnight considering 1/3 of the angels went with him, this is in the Bible as well.
I understand the portion of Ezekiel to mean that Lucifer did walk in the garden of Eden, when was that who knows? Did he lose his jewlery in which he was decked out in after he was cast out of heaven?
The above comes from Genesis, revelation, Ezekiel, Luke, and after reading several chapters of Paradise lost close to 15 years ago with a college professor.
I need to read in which of the books Ellen White wrote about Lucifers fall, creation, and that timing and cross reference to see what the common thread is, and the details of anything that deviates from the commin thread and try and understand it.
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
Will

double post sorry.

This is a topic that I have been hearing some arguments about that have intregued me, but not yet convinced me. Let me share them with you and we can think about the evidence and become convinced in our own mind. Also I've heard these through secondary sources, but apparently some theologians have been pointing this out.

The argument is that we get our understanding of the fall of Lucifer occuring before the fall of Adam and Eve from John Milton's Paridise Lost and from that time has become a tradition in Christianity.

It is further pointed out that Mrs. White does write about the transformation from Lucifer to Satan and from a quick reading it sounds like she if following Milton's chronology, but it is pointed out that she also makes some comments such as in the Review and Herald Oct. 29, 1895 and Signs of the Times Dec 30, 1889 and Desire of Ages pg 758, where Mrs. White says things such as "They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory." that the great work of redemption was for the whole universe, every world which God had created, and that without the cross the unfallen angles would be no more secure against evil than they were before the fall of Satan. and that in sources such as Desire of Ages pg 762, 68-69, 626; 3 Spirit of Prophecy183-184, Manuscript 58, 1897; Signs of the Times May 30, 1893; and Great Controversy 500-501 teaches that in a sense, the cross marks the close of probation for all creatures except man. (as quoted from Sanctuary and the Atonement, 1981 Biblical Research Committe, General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, page 711-712)

Built on the above, it is pointed out that while not directly challenging Milton, that Mrs. White actually follow the chronology of Revelation 12 which says "The Woman gave birth to a son. He will rule all the nations with an iron septer. But her child was taken up to God and his throne. The woman ran away into the desert to a place God prepared for her. There she would be taken care of for 1260 days. THEN there was a war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon...he and his angles lost their place in heaven. He was thrown down out of heaven to the earth."

If this is true then it would show how God was working with Lucifer and all the angels and that the events in the Old Testament would be ways of God not only dealing with us but also in trying to help the angels with questions.

I don't remember just what it was, but before I learned about the above, a number of years ago I was reading something in what Mrs. White had written that made me wonder if the final fall of Satan occured at the cross, but I quickly dismissed the idea because of Luke 10:18 where Jesus said that he saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning, and this verse being before the cross. However it has been pointed out that the context of the verse is that the 70 returned with joy saying "Lord, even the demons are subject ot us in Your name" and that Jesus was letting them know that he knew, because as the 70 had power over the demons Jesus could see the effect and that it was causing Satan to fall even more in his power(I'm sorry if I'm not clear in this explantion, I had heard it answered wonderfully)

We are again stuck with a strong traditon from John Milton, and we know how tradition becomes very strong in our hearts, and there is not a clear cut opposition to Milton's chronology, but there are some verses and Ellen White quotes that could indicate that while Milton was right in principle that he had the timing wrong and that we should see the time Satan was case out from heaven at the assension of Jesus, and the complete closing of his probation at the cross. And once again, I am finding these arguments intreguing, but I have not at this time become convinced and I'm open to either view.

Lucifer fell in sin before man, or he would have never been there to tempt.

However he continued to have access and influence, to accuse, in heaven until the death and resurrection of Christ settled the controversy in heaven; the Universe was reconciled to God in Christ; only on this planet Satan still finds homage.

These verses along with Revelation 12 speak of the time when he was cast out (no one would hear him any more in heaven).

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Excellent post John. Yes, we know that Lucifer started the issues of the great controversy and fell and was already on the path of changing from the light bearer to the devil. God created the world to try to help answer his questions. It was one thing for Lucifer to expirement a little with sin, but when he instead of saying to God "Thank you for creating this world to show me" (and to show that it is not that God happened to know when the natural results of a new world being created, God created an old world, which drives our scientists crazy, but which has a purpose) but instead he pulled in what was esentially children in their expirence, and crossed the line into being an abuser of children, placing him in a much worst situation than before.

We also find the time when Mrs. White talks about Satan coming back saying that he was sorry but Jesus cryed with him telling him that it was too late. What is interesting is when you look at this passage, it sounds a lot like things Jesus did on earth with people, such as the Phenotian woman, when he said that childrens meat is not to be given to the dogs, or when his third "Peter do you love me" was different from the other two and was actually asking "Peter, are you sure you love me as your friend?" (I don't want to take the time to study this here, I'll come back if people want to know, but it fits right with this story about Lucifer's attempted return) As you study what Mrs. White says about the context of the lies about God, Jesus was saying to Satan "Yes, you are right, I am like that and therefore it is too late for you" and Satan responded "I knew it, cried but when even further in his rebellion." What he should have said was "No Jesus, I was wrong when I said these things about you." and Jesus would have hugged him and taken him back.

The issue is whether the war in heaven and Satan limited to this earth only occured prior to the creation of the earth as John Milton said and we take for granted for, and that we are to read Revelation 12:7 as prior to the rest of the verses in Revelation 12 (and prior to Genesis 1:1) or if it would be at the cross and ascension as it may be in Revelation 12 and possiblibly in some of Mrs. White's comments referred to above.

Satan by the very nature of sin, lost his position as Covering Cherub in the early stages of his sin. Nevertheless he had free roam of the heavens, and by such means and subtlety he gained many adherents. Yet many questioned and wondered. That he and his angels had roam of heaven and earth can be seen in Job, King Saul, and other places. That he was present there to accuse is a main point.

In Revelation 12 we read:

• Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
  Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
  Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
  Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
  Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
  Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

When did this happen? Beside the above very scriptures which by context tell when, Christ clearly specified the time of this happening. He spoke this in context of his death.

• Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

When was this “now”? Where was he cast out from? Again he said:

• Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

So it is from heaven that he fell and was cast out.
How was he overthrown?

• Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
  Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

We see that what transpired from Gethsemane to Golgotha was a momentous event of judgment, after which the heavenly host forever refused to consider any further insinuations and accusations from Satan and his angels. Heaven was set free from the accuser, and there was no place found for him in heaven any more. None would hear him any more.

There is something very significant here to realize. What kind of war is this? How was the battle fought? It was not fought the way we would consider wars. It is a spiritual battle, and a spiritual victory. Satan and his angels being spirit beings were thus banned from heaven. The spirit of the Lord overcame evil with good. Hallelujah! It says in revelation they overcame him by the blood (spirit) of the lamb.

• Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Now further to the timing of this, we know that this happened when there were inhabiters of the earth and of the sea. It is also further evident that here place was found for him, meaning that the inhabiters were in sympathy with him.

• Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

At what stage in history were these inhabiters?

• Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
  Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

When is the time, and times, and half a time?

So there is prophetic time and contextual time, as well as direct witness from the Lord pinpointing the hour.

• Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
  Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

May we also have that victory by the blood (spirit) of the Lamb, and overcome the accuser and deceiver of the brethren, and be filled with God’s glory.

I agree completely John. A thing to notice is that Lucifer was not cast out of heaven in the sense that God physically threw Him out and put up some sort of force shield or something like that to prohibit him from going back. As you put it, "none would hear him any more."

Yes, that is the point. And the battle was not fought like people fight. We see the nature of the battle all the way from Gethsemane to Golgotha

We see glimpses of how angels fight in how demoniacs are treated, don't we? Things get very violent. Not to mention the outpouring of plagues, especially the passover.

Maybe we're not seeing things right, which is sort of the whole point. You've been asking repeatedly about why the angels were ready to support violence. The answer is that until Christ came, they didn't see the nature of the conflict completely clearly either.

What John has been pointing out, and quite correctly, is that the nature of the conflict is spiritual.



Ellen White brings out this point when she says that rebellion was not to be overcome by force, that compelling power is not to be found in God's government, only in Satan's. The principles of God's government, she states, are love, mercy and truth. God's government is moral.

When Christ came He said, "My kingdom is not of this world", His meaning not being primarily that it was from some other physical location but that its principles were completely different. He told parables, asking, "With what shall I compare it?" The SOP makes the interesting comment that He could thinking of nothing earthly to compare it with. Its principles are so utterly different.



Notice (the underlined sections) what specifically it is that sets His government apart.

Something that I have difficult understanding is why (I'm speaking of SOP fans here) when it so clearly states that God would not use force to put down rebellion, that so many think that God uses force to put down rebellion. It's almost as if she wrote the opposite of what she wrote.

Let's discuss a bit why God doesn't use force to put down rebellion. First of all, this would be contrary to His character, and the principles of His government, as already mentioned. However, in addition to this, it wouldn't work! This is discussed in DA 764



I think what many miss is how extraordinarily difficult it was for God to win this battle. Why? Because God is all-power, and could use force if He wanted to. But any such use of force would portray Him as being exactly the sort of being the enemy was making Him out to be (which is one altogether as himself).

Now this is the same problem we have when dealing with God. We make Him out to be such a one as ourselves. If we had the power God has, we *would* use force. So we assume He does as well. But He is not like us. He is better.

God had to proceed in such a way that the "evil seed of doubt" would no remain. This meant that the principles of the government must be seen, in contrast to his own. Now in Satan's government, we do see force and compelling power. This is seen throughout our world's history. It wasn't until Christ came that we could see the principles of God's government cleary.

When we look at Christ's life, we see that, indeed, force has no power in God's government. We see what God's attitude towards violence is.


Tom

Well, we should not think that the demons were filled with God’s spirit; so of course the way they treat their hosts is quite violent. That is why the Lord set the demoniacs free. But in Christ we see a different spirit.

We also see that same violence in how the wicked led by demons crucified the Lord. But in Christ we see the Lamb of God. And we see how the lamb of God overcame and destroyed the prince of darkness.

So the time of Lucifers fall meaning he ws cast out of heaven was after the world has been created correct?
I am leaning more towards that time because the Bible points to it, and Ezekiel talks about lucifer walk in the garden of Eden, not as satan but as lucifer in Ezekiel 28:13-14
Any thoughts?
God Bless,
Will

It seems to me that there were two stages. One was when Lucifer became Satan, and open rebelled against God. Jude talks about this:



The other is what Jesus spoke of in saying "Now is the prince of this world cast down." The cross was the final death knell which defeated the adversary. No being in heaven would pay him an mind after the cross.