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Luke 23:43 in Greek
#80855
11/08/06 05:03 AM
11/08/06 05:03 AM
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OP
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A friend of mine said that based on the Greek, Luke 23:43 can be translated, "Truly I say to you today, with Me, you will be in Paradise." The focus is that the "with Me" is emphasized in the Greek.
Unfortunately, Greek is, well, all Greek to me. Can anyone out there tell me if this is accurate? Thanks.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Luke 23:43 in Greek
[Re: Rosangela]
#80882
11/08/06 10:41 PM
11/08/06 10:41 PM
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As I don't see any copywrite notice there, I am going to quote some of the text from the link Rosangela provided.
(1) 'I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise'
(2) 'I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise'
As the early Greek MSS had no punctuation either of these is permissible.
The question is: Does 'today' (SHMERON) begin the second clause or end the first? Most English versions opt for the first of these two alternatives.
Here are a few considerations which make the second a viable option:
1. 'I X to you today' is a recognised Hebrew/Aramaic idiom, where X is a verb of speech or declaration. The function of the idiom is to stress the truth or the certainty of the affirmation that follows these words. The word 'today' in this case is simply part of the formula and there is no focus upon the particular day when it was spoken. This idiom is common in
Deuteronomy (e.g. 4:26; 8:19; 30:18), but also appears in other Old Testament books (1 Sam 12:5; 1 Kgs 1:51). That this idiom was still in use in New Testament times is shown by the fact that it is attested in certain Palestinian Aramaic legal documents dating from the 1st century.
2. It is evident that Luke, though a Gentile, knew this idiom, as it occurs in the book of Acts. In 20:26 the apostle Paul says, 'I testify to you this day'. In this case the ambiguity of whether 'this day' belongs with what precedes or follows is removed by the use of the complementizer HOTI, which Luke places AFTER 'this day' in keeping with the Semitic idiom.
3. In the translation of Luke 23:43 in the Curetonian MS of the Old Syriac Gospels the Syriac equivalent of HOTI is used - the particle /d/ 'that'. And the translators, no doubt familiar with a Semitic idiom, placed this particle AFTER 'today'.
4. The writings of Luke show a preference for adverbial SHMERON in the final position. Altogether, according to my reckoning, there are 25 occurrences of adverbial SHMERON in the New Testament, in 14 it is initial, in 11 it is final. And, significantly, of these 11, no less than 9 are in Luke-Acts. Interestingly, in one synoptic parallel, where Matthew (6:30)
has 'today' + Participle, Luke's version (12:28) has Participle + 'today'. There is a clear tendency on Luke's part to place this word at the end.
5. According to the teaching of the early church (based on 1 Pet 3:19), after Christ died on the cross 'he descended into hell'. Equally, a case could be made that it was to 'hades' that he in fact went (cf. Acts 2:27). In either case it is not 'paradise'.
If 'today' is taken as clause-final, then the following clause begins with MET'EMOU, 'with me'. This occupies the prominent preverbal position - 'WITH ME you shall be in paradise'. This is appropriate as a response to the request of the thief that Jesus remember him. (Then 'in paradise' would correspond to 'when you come into your kingdom').
I am not here arguing for the second alternative above. I just present certain facts for discussion.
Nick Lunn
Wycliffe Bible Translators
Nairobi, Kenya
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Re: Luke 23:43 in Greek
[Re: Daryl]
#80909
11/09/06 04:56 AM
11/09/06 04:56 AM
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Do I understand correctly that if "today" ends the first part of the sentence, then "with Me" starts the second part?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Luke 23:43 in Greek
[Re: asygo]
#80933
11/10/06 05:09 AM
11/10/06 05:09 AM
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Here's a post I sent on another list on the same topic. Tell me what you think. I do not quite understand the problem. "With Me" seems simple enough. I see 3 ways to render this phrase: - You will be in Paradise with Me.
- You will be with Me in Paradise.
- With Me, you will be in Paradise.
That might clarify it enough, but I'll explain myself anyway. Though I don't know of any version that uses #1, many people understand it this way. It puts being in Paradise as of primary importance, and you'll happen to see Jesus when you get there. Though never stated, I think it is a common belief. #2 is the usual way of rendering it. It's better than #1 in that it better emphasizes being with Christ. But when will you be with Jesus? When you get to Paradise. #3 puts the focus squarely on Jesus. Being with Him is the crucial point. When we are with Christ, we will experience Paradise. Though Young's Literal Translation is the only version I know that translates it this way, I like it much better than the others. First, it shows that Christ is the fundamental answer to the fundamental question, "What must I do to be saved?" Second, unlike #1 and #2, it clearly shows that eternal joy is conditioned upon being with Jesus; as soon as we depart from Him, we lose the blessing of bliss. Third, it shifts the focus of salvation from location to connection with God. If I were inclined to make an extremely modern translation, I might put it this way: Listen up 'cause I'm gonna make it plain for you right now. Stick with Me and it'll be heaven. Paradise, of course, is Heaven, and Jesus told the thief that he would eventually be there WITH HIM. That highlights the superiority of the YLT translation. Jesus told the thief to be with Him now, and he'll eventually be in Heaven. Here's another ASG version: Truly I tell you, stay with Me starting today, and you'll eventually be in Paradise and continue to be with Me forever.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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