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Re: Lesson Study #5 - Destruction and RENEWAL [Re: asygo] #80806
11/07/06 12:09 PM
11/07/06 12:09 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Although there are various levels of unhealthiness, it's just a matter of degrees

What I see is that we have: 1) the best food, 2) acceptable food, and 3) unacceptable food.
So, at the time God permitted meat to be eaten, although clean meats were not the best food, they were still acceptable as food, while unclean meats were decidedly unacceptable.
Today, the use of even clean meats is becoming unacceptable:

“Flesh was never the best food; but its use is now doubly objectionable, since disease in animals is so rapidly increasing” (MH 313).

I think quality and quantity should be considered. God permitted, and even required (according to the sanctuary service) a moderate consumption of meat in a time when the quality of meat was not so objectionable as today.

But unclean meats were never acceptable:

“This command [Deut. 14:8] was given because swine's flesh is unfit for food. … Never, under any circumstances, was their flesh to be eaten by human beings” (MH 314).

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Re: Lesson Study #5 - Destruction and RENEWAL [Re: vastergotland] #80807
11/07/06 12:10 PM
11/07/06 12:10 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Also, is there evidence that vegetarians or vegans generally live longer than others?

Some research seems to point in that direction.

http://www.alanlam.demon.co.uk/dyk2f.htm

http://www.killian.com/earl/rfv/LifeExpectancyOfVegetarians

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Re: Lesson Study #5 - Destruction and RENEWAL [Re: vastergotland] #80837
11/08/06 02:08 AM
11/08/06 02:08 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Is the judgement on mans initial longevity to be found in genesis 6:3? In such case it would seem to have been made about 100 years before meateating started.


Actually, meat-eating started before the flood.

Quote:
The people who lived before the flood ate animal food and gratified their lusts until their cup of iniquity was full, and God cleansed the earth of its moral pollution by a flood. {CD 373.2}


If you chart the lifespan of men as listed in the Bible, you'll find that there was a steep drop-off after the flood. It eventually levels off at around threescore and ten.

If we consider the fact that men started poisoning themselves with dead animal flesh before the Flood, we should realize that sin brings its own judgment upon its practitioners. If Gen 6:3 refers to man's longevity, it constitutes a huge change. That's equivalent to the modern lifespan dropping to about 10 years.

But another possibility is that Gen 6:3 refers to the coming Flood. God allowed them the benefit of Noah's preaching for 120 years before pulling the trigger.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson Study #5 - Destruction and RENEWAL [Re: Rosangela] #80851
11/08/06 03:11 AM
11/08/06 03:11 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
What I see is that we have: 1) the best food, 2) acceptable food, and 3) unacceptable food.


I agree. And as I understand it, after man's fall, that translates to 1) fruits, nuts, grains, vegetables, 2) clean meat, 3) unclean meat. Furthermore, although clean meat became acceptable after the Flood, it is inherently unhealthy.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
God permitted, and even required (according to the sanctuary service) a moderate consumption of meat


Yes. And my meat-eating friends inform me that Jesus ate fish, and that there are uncivilized societies that must include meat (even unclean) in their diets. Strangely, these city-dwellers don't limit themselves to eating fish or bloodless, fatless, kosher sanctuary animals. I have a feeling they are driven by factors other than necessity. Maybe they just can't find the grocery's produce department....

As I think of the priest's obligation to eat life-shortening meat, it makes even more vivid the truth that Jesus took upon Himself our curses that we might have His blessings. We should study the sanctuary more often.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson Study #5 - Destruction and RENEWAL [Re: asygo] #80856
11/08/06 07:37 AM
11/08/06 07:37 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: asygo
But another possibility is that Gen 6:3 refers to the coming Flood. God allowed them the benefit of Noah's preaching for 120 years before pulling the trigger.
That might have been, if the time between God telling Noah to make the ark and the beginning of the flood had acctually been 120 years. But it seems that Noah built that ark in 100 years, does it not?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson Study #5 - Destruction and RENEWAL [Re: asygo] #80862
11/08/06 12:12 PM
11/08/06 12:12 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
God permitted, and even required (according to the sanctuary service) a moderate consumption of meat
Quote:
Yes. And my meat-eating friends inform me that Jesus ate fish…

Although I believe in the benefits of vegetarianism, and have been experiencing them for 35 years now, I consider some facts intriguing, like the angels and the Lord eating meat with Abraham, Jesus eating meat, the miracle of the multiplication, Jesus preparing fish for the disciples, the priests having to eat the sin-offering, and all the people having to eat the Passover lamb.
Don’t you think that if we classify meat, at that time (as opposed to our times), as an unhealthful article of food we create a problem in view of the above incidents? I mean, would Jesus, for instance, multiply something unhealthful for the people to eat? Would He prepare something unhealthful for His disciples to eat?


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Re: Lesson Study #5 - Destruction and RENEWAL [Re: Rosangela] #80867
11/08/06 01:27 PM
11/08/06 01:27 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Those are some good points. Godordained meat eating is difficult to match with a view that meat is slowly working poison. A view that eating meat would make anyone less a christian is difficult to match with Jesus eating meat.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson Study #5 - Destruction and RENEWAL [Re: Rosangela] #80908
11/09/06 04:52 AM
11/09/06 04:52 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Don’t you think that if we classify meat, at that time (as opposed to our times), as an unhealthful article of food we create a problem in view of the above incidents? I mean, would Jesus, for instance, multiply something unhealthful for the people to eat? Would He prepare something unhealthful for His disciples to eat?


I'm not sure. I haven't dug deep enough to get a solid answer to that. And I'm not sure that such an answer exists, since it would be based on "WWJD" rather than "Thus saith the Lord."

But I have a couple of questions for you that will help me see where you're at.

1) Based on PC 1.3, do you agree that one reason flesh-meat was allowed by God was to shorten man's life?

2) Do you agree that meat after the Flood (just a few generations removed from Eden) was LESS UNhealthy than meat during Jesus' life (4000 years removed from Eden)?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson Study #5 - Destruction and RENEWAL [Re: asygo] #80911
11/09/06 07:49 AM
11/09/06 07:49 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Don’t you think that if we classify meat, at that time (as opposed to our times), as an unhealthful article of food we create a problem in view of the above incidents? I mean, would Jesus, for instance, multiply something unhealthful for the people to eat? Would He prepare something unhealthful for His disciples to eat?


I'm not sure. I haven't dug deep enough to get a solid answer to that. And I'm not sure that such an answer exists, since it would be based on "WWJD" rather than "Thus saith the Lord."
Isnt this reply most of all due to careless quoting? There is a "thus saith the Lord" in Rosangelas complete post, or even two...


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson Study #5 - Destruction and RENEWAL [Re: asygo] #80913
11/09/06 01:42 PM
11/09/06 01:42 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
But I have a couple of questions for you that will help me see where you're at.

I’m not sure where I’m at.

Quote:
1) Based on PC 1.3, do you agree that one reason flesh-meat was allowed by God was to shorten man's life?

As I see it, God allowed flesh meat to be eaten because this became necessary at that time, although He knew beforehand that man wouldn’t consider this a temporary measure, but would adhere to the meat diet permanently, and would commit excesses in meat eating, which in turn would lead to the shortening of his own life. So it seems to me that the main factor involved in the shortening of man’s life-span is probably his intemperance. But, granted, meat has a stimulating effect on the body, so its consumption, even moderately, wouldn’t seem to be entirely free from objections.

Quote:
2) Do you agree that meat after the Flood (just a few generations removed from Eden) was LESS UNhealthy than meat during Jesus' life (4000 years removed from Eden)?

I understand that there are two factors which make meat-eating dangerous. The first, as I said, is that it easily leads to excesses; and the second is the diseases which afflict the animal kingdom. But until Jesus’ time, and even many centuries after that, the animals seemed to be relatively free from diseases. This is basically a modern problem.

“A very serious objection to the practice of meat eating is found in the fact that disease is becoming more and more widespread among the animal creation. The curse because of sin causes the earth to groan under the inhabitants thereof, and every living thing is subject to disease and death. Cancers, tumors, diseases of the lungs, the liver, the kidneys, all exist among the animals that are used for food. Until late years we have never heard of anything approaching to the variety of diseases now apparent in the animal creation. It is stated that out of a herd of twenty cattle, the inspectors accepted only two; from another herd of one hundred, only twenty-five were accepted as having no apparent disease. The only way to avoid contracting disease from the use of flesh meats is to discard them altogether. Persons will do this much more readily if they have an intelligent knowledge of the dangers that attend the eating of the flesh of dead animals.” {7MR 421.1}

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