Okay, here are a few quotes on the relationship between the sanctuary and the plan of salvation. I believe they show that Ellen White made a connection between the two.

"The intercession of Christ in man's behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon the cross. By His death He began that work which after His resurrection He ascended to
complete in heaven. We must by faith enter within the veil, "whither the forerunner is for us entered." Hebrews 6:20. There the light from the cross of Calvary is reflected. There we may gain a clearer insight into the mysteries of redemption. The salvation of man is accomplished at an
infinite expense to heaven; the sacrifice made is equal to the broadest demands of the broken law of God. Jesus has opened the way to the Father's throne, and through His mediation the sincere desire of all who come to Him in faith may be presented before God." {GC 489.1}

"The typical service was the connecting link between God and Israel. The sacrificial offerings were designed to prefigure the sacrifice of Christ, and thus to preserve in the hearts of the people an unwavering faith in the Redeemer to come. Hence, in order that the Lord might accept their sacrifices, and continue His presence with them, and, on the other hand, that the people might have a correct knowledge of the plan of salvation,
and a right understanding of their duty, it was of the utmost importance that holiness of heart and purity of life, reverence for God, and strict obedience to His requirements, should be maintained by all connected with the sanctuary (ST Dec. 1, 1881)." {2BC 1010.3}

"This is the great day of atonement, and our Advocate is standing before the Father, pleading as our intercessor. In place of wrapping about us the garments of self-righteousness, we should be found daily humbling ourselves before God, confessing our own individual sins, seeking the pardon of our transgressions, and cooperating with Christ in the work of preparing our souls to reflect the divine image. Unless we enter the
sanctuary above, and unite with Christ in working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, we shall be weighed in the balances of the sanctuary, and shall be pronounced wanting (MS 168, 1898)." {7BC 933.14}

"The great Sacrifice had been offered, and had been accepted, and the Holy Spirit which descended on the day of Pentecost carried the minds of the disciples from the earthly Sanctuary to the heavenly, where Jesus had
entered by his own blood, and shed upon his disciples the benefits of his atonement. The Jews were left in complete deception and total darkness. They lost all the light they might have had upon the plan of salvation,
and still trusted in their useless sacrifices and offerings. They could not be benefited by the mediation of Christ in the Holy place. The heavenly Sanctuary had taken the place of the earthly, yet they had no
knowledge of the way to the heavenly." {1SG 169.1}

There is a sanctuary in heaven which is real. The old sanctuary pre-figured the sacrifice of Christ, and His work for us. I still haven't seen any comparisons or conclusions to match yours, Mike. That's not to say you are incorrect. But at this time I can't see that as correct. I'll keep on.

I agree, the sanctuary symbolizes the work Jesus has, is and will do for us. But does it exclude us? If it has to do with what Jesus is doing for us, then how can it not include us?

For example, does Jesus' death on the cross in the outer court mean we don't have to crucify our old man habits of sin on the altar? Does Jesus' resurrection from the laver mean we don't have to be born again?

Does Jesus' presence in the holy place mean we don't have to let our light shine (candle stick), pray (altar of incense) or eat the bread of life (table of showbread)?

Do you see what I mean? What Jesus does for us is also what He does in and through us. And these things are symbolized in the sanctuary. If not, then what does the sanctuary say about our salvation experience both in terms of justification and sanctification? Would someone like to respond?

1. Also, did we ever determine what the Bible says about - At what point are we actually born again? Do we experience rebirth before or after we completely crucify our old man habits of sin? See Rom 6.

2. Are we considered a new man in Christ if we are still clinging to some pet darling moral defect of character? See 2 Cor 5:17.

3. And is there any such thing as an unknown moral defect of character which a born again believer can commit without realizing it because God is waiting for the right time to reveal it to him? See Rom 1:18-32 and Gal 5:19-21 and 2 Tim 3:1-7.

Addressing Daryl's question about when we are born again, I have a sermon entitled "Born again and again and again." One of the primary points is that if we like Paul die daily, we must be born again daily. When are we born again? If you don't die to sin daily, and are not reborn in Christ daily, it isn't happening for you!

I would like a direct response to this:
Does a tree bring forth fruit instantly or does that fruit have to develop?
and the second is:
Is obedience a fruit of the Spirit?
Sometimes I feel I've made a particular point, but it's not addressed, and the same premise is simply re-stated without a response to what I feel are serious questions. If they can't be answered, then please explain why. Object lessons other than the sanctuary have been given to illustrate the development of the christian life. As with all protestant study, one example can't be used alone without the qualifying effects of other texts.

Wedntgp,

Your sermon on this topic sounds interesting, therefore, I invite you to post it in the Messages/Sermons forum and I will then link it in this topic as a reference.

The dying (dieing) daily that Paul speaks about is something to be explored in this topic.

_________________________
In His Love,Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Zyph

Mark 4:
26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.
30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Only as plants mature do they bring forth their matured harvest. The verses & quotes never suggest that a passage of time is not involved.
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"If the followers of Christ were but earnest seekers after wisdom, they would be led into rich fields of truth as yet wholly unknown to them. He who will give himself fully to God will be guided by the divine hand. He may be lowly and apparently ungifted; yet if with a loving, trusting heart he obeys every intimation of God's will, his powers will be purified, ennobled, energized, and his capabilities will be increased. As he treasures the lessons of divine wisdom, a sacred commission will be entrusted to him; he will be enabled to make his life an honor to God and a blessing to the world. "The entrance of Thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple." Psalm 119:130. {AA 283.3}

There are today many as ignorant of the Holy Spirit's work upon the heart as were those believers in Ephesus; yet no truth is more clearly taught in the word of God. Prophets and apostles have dwelt upon this theme. Christ Himself calls our attention to the growth of the vegetable world as an illustration of the agency of His Spirit in sustaining spiritual life. The sap of the vine, ascending from the root, is diffused to the branches, sustaining growth and producing blossoms and fruit. So the life-giving power of the Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Saviour, pervades the soul, renews the motives and affections, and brings even the thoughts into obedience to the will of God, enabling the receiver to bear the precious fruit of holy deeds. {AA 284.1}

The Author of this spiritual life is unseen, and the exact method by which that life is imparted and sustained, it is beyond the power of human philosophy to explain. Yet the operations of the Spirit are always in harmony with the written word. As in the natural, so in the spiritual world. The natural life is preserved moment by moment by divine power; yet it is not sustained by a direct miracle, but through the use of blessings placed within our reach. So the spiritual life is sustained by the use of those means that Providence has supplied. If the follower of Christ would grow up "unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:13), he must eat of the bread of life and drink of the water of salvation. He must watch and pray and work, in all things giving heed to the instructions of God in His word. {AA 284.2}
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"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren,"

Peter continued, "see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently." The word of God--the truth--is the channel through which the Lord manifests His Spirit and power. Obedience to the word produces fruit of the required quality --"unfeigned love of the brethren." This love is heaven-born and leads to high motives and unselfish actions. {AA 519.3}

When truth becomes an abiding principle in the life, the soul is "born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." This new birth is the result of receiving Christ as the Word of God. When by the Holy Spirit divine truths are impressed upon the heart, new conceptions are awakened, and the energies hitherto dormant are aroused to co-operate with God. {AA 520.1}

Thus it had been with Peter and his fellow disciples. Christ was the revealer of truth to the world. By Him the incorruptible seed--the word of God--was sown in the hearts of men. But many of the most precious lessons of the Great Teacher were spoken to those who did not then understand them. When, after His ascension, the Holy Spirit brought His teachings to the remembrance of the disciples, their slumbering senses awoke. The meaning of these truths flashed upon their minds as a new revelation, and truth, pure and unadulterated, made a place for itself. Then the wonderful experience of His life became theirs. The Word bore testimony through them, the men of His appointment, and they proclaimed the mighty truth, "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, . . . full of grace and truth." "And of His fullness have all we received, and grace for grace." John 1:14, 16. {AA 520.2}

The apostles exhorted the believers to study the Scriptures, through a proper understanding of which they might make sure work for eternity. Peter realized that in the experience of every soul who is finally victorious there would be scenes of perplexity and trial; but he knew also that an understanding of the Scriptures would enable the tempted one to bring to mind promises that would comfort the heart and strengthen faith in the Mighty One. {AA 521.1}
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(notice circumstances holding people back & the effects of the power & love of Truth.)

The message will be carried not so much by argument as by the deep conviction of the Spirit of God. The arguments have been presented. The seed has been sown, and now it will spring up and bear fruit. The publications distributed by missionary workers have exerted their influence, yet many whose minds were impressed have been prevented from fully comprehending the truth or from yielding obedience. Now the rays of light penetrate everywhere, the truth is seen in its clearness. . . . A large number take their stand upon the Lord's side.--The Great Controversy, p. 612. (1888) {CM 152.1}
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(here's how Jesus looks at folks trying to obey Him.)

Here is declared the same truth that Jesus had revealed to Nicodemus when He said, "Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3, margin. Not by seeking a holy mountain or a sacred temple are men brought into communion with heaven. Religion is not to be confined to external forms and ceremonies. The religion that comes from God is the only religion that will lead to God. In order to serve Him aright, we must be born of the divine Spirit. This will purify the heart and renew the mind, giving us a new capacity for knowing and loving God. It will give us a willing obedience to all His requirements. This is true worship. It is the fruit of the working of the Holy Spirit. By the Spirit every sincere prayer is indited, and such prayer is acceptable to God. Wherever a soul reaches out after God, there the Spirit's working is manifest, and God will reveal Himself to that soul. For such worshipers He is seeking. He waits to receive them, and to make them His sons and daughters. {DA 189.2}

As the woman talked with Jesus, she was impressed with His words. Never had she heard such sentiments from the priests of her own people or from the Jews. As the past of her life had been spread out before her, she had been made sensible of her great want. She realized her soul thirst, which the waters of the well of Sychar could never satisfy. Nothing that had hitherto come in contact with her had so awakened her to a higher need. Jesus had convinced her that He read the secrets of her life; yet she felt that He was her friend, pitying and loving her. While the very purity of His presence condemned her sin, He had spoken no word of denunciation, but had told her of His grace, that could renew the soul. She began to have some conviction of His character. The question arose in her mind, Might not this be the long-looked-for Messiah? She said to Him, "I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when He is come, He will tell us all things." Jesus answered, "I that speak unto thee am He." {DA 189.3}

As the woman heard these words, faith sprang up in her heart. She accepted the wonderful announcement from the lips of the divine Teacher. {DA 190.1}

This woman was in an appreciative state of mind. She was ready to receive the noblest revelation; for she was interested in the Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit had been preparing her mind to receive more light. She had studied the Old Testament promise, "The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto Him ye shall hearken." Deut. 18:15. She longed to understand this prophecy. Light was already flashing into her mind. The water of life, the spiritual life which Christ gives to every thirsty soul, had begun to spring up in her heart. The Spirit of the Lord was working with her. {DA 190.2}

The plain statement made by Christ to this woman could not have been made to the self-righteous Jews. Christ was far more reserved when He spoke to them. That which had been withheld from the Jews, and which the disciples were afterward enjoined to keep secret, was revealed to her. Jesus saw that she would make use of her knowledge in bringing others to share His grace. {DA 190.3}

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited September 08, 2001).]

Mike, I think the name of the book you are looking for is Christ In His Sanctuary.

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Jesus is the joy of living
_________________________

Linda

Thank you, Ed. That reaffirms what my understanding of the process. And I agree profoundly with Wendtgp, that yesterday's conversion isn't sufficient for today.
Mike, I'd be very interested if you would do a breakdown of these statements in the context of your interpretation. While I agree with you that there are clear statements regarding our capacity to overcome sin through grace, I disagree that sin is not a big issue. It cost the life of the Son of God, and is the whole essence of the controversy. It permeates our lives - even our bodies - and is the thing we hate when we're close to the Lord. There are too many references to striving and fighting - albeit in the Lord's strength - for me to believe that sin is not a biggie. Of course our eyes are to be kept fixed on Jesus, and not our sins, but even after changing direction, we are born again sinners. Our spiritual lives are now intact, but morality is a thing that develops over time.

Doesn't it?

Hello. I was away on business again. Sorry for not responding sooner. Zyph, I'm sorry I gave the impression that sin is no biggie. I agree with you that it is a terrible thing. Something we must continually fight to resist unto the glory of God.

I have a question - When Paul says, "I die daily" (1 Cor 15:31), are we to assume that he means we fall into sin daily and must therefore recrucify the old man? Or does he mean that by the indwelling grace (power) of God we must daily maintain the death of the old man?

Regarding Zyph's two questions: I believe a seed develops into a plant that eventually bears ripe fruit. According to this illustration when did rebirth take place? From my point of view, using this analogy, a person is considered born again when the seed is planted. And the subsequent growth symbolizes maturing in the fruit of the Spirit from childhood to manhood.

Is obedience a fruit of the Spirit? If it's "obedience [that leads] unto righteousness" (Rom 6:16) then I would say, Yes. But if it's partial obedience I would say, No. For example, before a person is born again they may respond to the influence of the Holy Spirit to give up this and that moral defect of character, but resist giving up certain pet darling sins. Under these circumstances I believe the Bible teaches that such a person is not truly converted.

Zyph, I'm sorry your questions and comments sometimes go unnoticed. I know the feeling. But hang in there, they eventually get addressed. You might have to repeat them from time to time.

What does it mean - We must be born again and again and again? Does it mean we are never really born again at all? Or does it mean we must maintain our born again status by refusing to resurrect our crucified old man? Or does it mean we never do have victory over sin therefore we must be born again every time God decides to reveal a new defect of character?

Concerning the quotes Edward shared: I believe they support what I have been sharing. And that is, a person experiences a spiritual rebirth the moment they come to that place where they would rather die than cling to some cherished moral defect of character that recrucifies Jesus.

Please understand what I am not saying about rebirth. I am not saying once saved always saved. We always have the option to resurrect the mind of the old man and revert back to some previous habit of sin. But a person cannot be born again, that is, receive the sinless seed of the new man mind, until they totally surrrender themselves to Jesus and decide against all pet darling sins.

I'm not saying they must first be a full grown adult in the faith before they can experience rebirth. But I am saying they must first be "willing" to give up all moral defects of character before they can receive the gift of the new man mind. Then the Holy Spirit can empower them from within their soul temple, through the mind of the new man, to not only "will" but also to "do of His good pleasure." Phil 2:13.

We cannot experience Phil 2:13 until we crucify the old man habits of sin. Phil 2:13 is fulfilled exclusively through the mind of the new man, which is the gift we receive after we're born again, after we come to the place where we would rather die than cling to sin.

Would anyone like to address the questions I listed several posts ago? And Linda, thank you for finding out the name of the EGW compilation on the sanctuary and salvation.