I would like us to do a study on "born again."

quote:

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John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

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It is obvious from the above reference that we must be born again.

At what point in our life are we actually "born again"?

_________________________
In His Love,Mercy & Grace

Daryl

If we use the sanctuary model to help guide us I believe we can come up with an accurate answer to your question.

We sin outside the walls of the sanctuary. During this time the Holy Spirit is influencing and impressing us to approach the gate of the sanctuary where we get a glimpse of Jesus in the outer court on the altar of sacrifice.

We are motivated to give up certain sins as we behold Christ and Him crucified. At this point, however, we are depending on our own will-power to leave off sin. Not until we come to the place where we are willing to totally give up our sinful traits of character do we actually crucify the old man.

Once we make a choice to completely submit and surrender ourselves to the plan of salvation we experience death to sin, self and Satan. We are buried, baptized and born again in the laver. We are born again babes. We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception.

Born again believers then move into the holy place. They do not and cannot sin while walking in the holy place in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Sin happens outside the sanctuary, not in the holy place. Repentance and cleansing happens in the outer court.

To be born again means to be born again. As I see it, a born again person is not an amalgamation of sin and righteousness. The new man is a radically new person. "Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Cor 5:17. The seed of the new man "cannot sin." 1 John 3:9. The "old man" is dead, and the new man is "created in righteousnes and true holiness." Eph 4:24.

To sin we must resurrect the old man. Sin cannot happen in the mind of the new man. In order to sin we must revert back to the mind of the old man. We always have the freedom to choose life in the mind of the old man.

We obtain justification in the outer court, and we maintain it in the holy place. Both are necessary for Jesus to justify us. Justification accommodates sins pardoned, and sins committed unwittingly. Jesus cannot justify someone who refuses to confess and forsake a certain sin. No one can experience rebirth if they refuse to separate from sin.

Sanctification happens in the holy place. It is the life long process of growing in grace and maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. It includes becoming more and more like Jesus, not less and less like Satan. Sanctification has nothing to do with sinning and repenting.

There is no such thing as an unknown moral defect of character for a Spirit-filled, born again Christian who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Thus, there is no such thing as God gradually exposing defects of character over a period of a lifetime. God does not hide from us our character imperfections.

Conversion is a process and a product. During the process of conversion we are in the outer court, during which time the Holy Spirit impresses us to give up all moral defects of character. Depending on the person this process may take several months to several years. Many people never do complete this phase of the process.

Once we finally come to the point where we would rather die than to recrucify Christ over and over again, the old man habits of sin die and we are born again a new man in Christ. We are not born again morally mature. But we are born again morally complete.

The sinless seed of the new man comes complete with all the fruit of the Spirit. Not one is missing. As we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man we gradually grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit. We duplicate the example of baby Jesus as He grew from childhhod to manhood. Our growth is not measured in terms of sinfulness, but rather in depth and degree of righteousness.

Do we have to be perfect before we can be born again? Morally perfect - Yes. Mentally and physically perfect - No. By moral perfection I mean we cannot cling to any moral defect of character and hope to experience the miracle of rebirth. By mental perfection I mean there may be certain non-moral aspects of salvation that we may not understand when we're born again.

For example, we may not realize that the seventh day is the Sabbath day to keep holy. Or we may not know about health reform, or the 2300 day prophecy, etc. God winks at this ignorance. But once we become aware of these kinds of truths we must turn to the Spirit for the power to incorporate theminto our life.

Physical perfection comes at the end of time when Jesus returns in the clouds of glory. In the meantime, we must partake of the divine nature in order to resist the unholy clamorings of our sinful flesh nature. It is not a sin to possess sinful flesh, but we must trust in God to live without giving up and giving in to the sinful desires of our fallen flesh nature.

When are we considered born again? When we reject sin and crucify our old man habits of sin. Then we experience the miracle of rebirth, and are empowerd from within to live without sin and to mature in the fruit of the Spirit while imitating the example of Jesus.

How do the rest of you see it?

I only have time to ask one question today.
I've heard the sanctuary used for various things. Can you clarify, Mike, probably from SOP where it is used as a map for an individual's salvation? I feel I need to grasp this concept better. Thanks.

Zyph, good question. It's something I've taken for granted. Psalm 77:13 says, "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary." Also, there's a compilation of EGW material in a book called... uh, I forget.

Edward, can you supply the quotes?

Zyph,

A good starter for the message in the sanctuary, is a simple illustrated study put together by Amazing Facts and can be found at the following URL. This is 8 pages that you can download and study. I have copied this many times and given it out to those that want to study this subject. It will stimulate an interest in digging deeply into this, but a great place to start.
www.aloha.net/~mikesch/temple.htm

good studying. God Bless

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"None but those who have fortified their mind with the truths of the Bible will stand through the last great conflict." GC 593, 594 (1911).
-END-

I am not familiar with the concept, Sanctuary as a model of conversion, refresh my memory. Might be a new line of study ??? What phrase do you need looked up ?

The best I understand John 1:12-13 sums it up.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

When we receive Jesus we are born again. To put away known sins is to follow Him. Before we can tell that God is calling and before we can tell we are responding the Divine wind is blowing and new life beginning. Physical birth is not new life, conception is. Birth comes 9 months later, and does no good if the baby does not breath and eat. The object of physical birth is full growth & starting the cycle over(having kids).

Spiritual conception happens before human knowledge of it begins, it is subconscious. New Birth happens as we receive Jesus. The breathing & eating is in following Jesus & eating the Words of God (reading & doing).
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I cheated & typed in "is born again" in the EGW CD Rom.
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When truth becomes an abiding principle in the life, the soul is "born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." This new birth is the result of receiving Christ as the Word of God. When by the Holy Spirit divine truths are impressed upon the heart, new conceptions are awakened, and the energies hitherto dormant are aroused to co-operate with God. {AA 520.1}
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The very work that Christ declared necessary in the case of Nicodemus is the very work that needs to be done for those men who think that everything pertaining to religion must be done in a precise, methodical way. They need to be born again; and how the new birth is accomplished matters not, so long as the heart is renewed. When the prayer is sincerely offered, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me," the voice of the Lord answers, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments and do them." The renewed heart will have no plants of selfishness to cultivate. Pride will be seen in its sinfulness, and will be expelled. It is not for the human clay to find fault with the molding process of the potter, but to submit to be molded in any way. Every soul must submit to the Lord before he can be made a vessel unto honor, to be filled with the renewing, sanctifying grace of Christ. {RH, May 5, 1896 par. 5}
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The new birth is accomplished by the reception of the word of God; but those who belittle the word of God, those who cast contempt upon the law of Jehovah, place themselves under the banner of the prince of darkness. Satan began the work of rebellion in heaven by opposition to the constitution and government of God; and this is the manner of work he has carried on ever since the fall of man. Through the agency of evil men he seeks to make void the law of the Most High. "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." Christ vindicated and honored the law of God, declaring that upon the principles of the Ten Commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Those who manifest disrespect for the law of Jehovah, make it evident that they have not been born again, and the truth does not abide in them. {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 2}
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The minds of many are clouded with unbelief because those who unite with the church as the chosen of God do not reveal the virtues that are the fruits of the Spirit. Joining the church is not a sure evidence that a man has joined himself to Christ. The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {12MR 51.1}

Thousands who claim to be religious are not Christians. Paul was very strict in carrying out his religion, but he was not a Christian until Christ revealed Himself to him and talked with him, showing him that he was persecuting his Master in the person of His saints. Then Paul was converted. He became one of the sect he had despised and hated; and for his love of Christ he received the same cruel treatment that he had once cooperated with others in giving. {12MR 51.2}
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In His interview with Nicodemus, an influential member of the Sanhedrin, Christ struck down deep to foundation principles. He said, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." The new birth is the beginning of a new life, a new shining forth of light because of a change in the character. The old life of selfishness has died, and the Christ-life is revealed. This is the first preparation essential for men and women who desire to be laborers together with God in medical missionary work. {17MR 359.2}
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"this is the new birth"-1 hit

"By looking constantly to Jesus, from morn till eve, with the eye of faith, we shall be strengthened. God will make the most precious revelations to His hungering, thirsting people. They will find that Christ is a personal Savior. They feed upon His word, for it is spirit and life. This word kills the natural, earthly nature, and a new life in Christ Jesus is created. The Holy Spirit comes as a Comforter to them. Love takes the place of hatred, and the heart receives the mold of the divine similitude. The image of Christ is reproduced in the human agent, and by the transforming efficacy of the grace of Christ he becomes a new creature. "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12,13). This is the new birth. {10MR 166.1}
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"until the grace of Christ" - 5 or 6 hits

"Those who would work in God's service must not be seeking worldly gratification and selfish indulgence. The physicians in our institutions must be imbued with the living principles of health reform. Men will never be truly temperate until the grace of Christ is an abiding principle in the heart. All the pledges in the world will not make you or your wife health reformers. No mere restriction of your diet will cure your diseased appetite. Brother and Sister ----- will not practice temperance in all things until their hearts are transformed by the grace of God. {CD 35.2}

Circumstances cannot work reforms. Christianity proposes a reformation in the heart. What Christ works within, will be worked out under the dictation of a converted intellect. The plan of beginning outside and trying to work inward has always failed, and always will fail. God's plan with you is to begin at the very seat of all difficulties, the heart, and then from out of the heart will issue the principles of righteousness; the reformation will be outward as well as inward. {CD 35.3}
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Those who would work in God's service must not be seeking worldly gratification and selfish indulgence. The physicians in our institutions must be imbued with the living principles of health reform. Men will never be truly temperate until the grace of Christ is an abiding principle in the heart. All the pledges in the world will not make you or your wife health reformers. No mere restriction of your diet will cure your diseased appetite. Brother and Sister Maxson will not practice temperance in all things until their hearts are transformed by the grace of God and they shall wear Christ's yoke and have Christ's meekness and lowliness of heart. {20MR 112.3}

Circumstances cannot work reforms. Christianity proposes a reformation in the heart. What Christ works within, will be worked out under the dictation of a converted intellect. The plan of beginning outside and trying to work inward has always failed, and always will fail. {20MR 112.4}

Standing as you do, my brother and sister, God's plan with you is to begin at the very seat of all difficulties, the heart, and then from out of the heart will issue the principles of righteousness; the reformation will be outward as well as inward. {20MR 112.5}

God's way is to give man something he has not. But you have said, I want it not. God's way is to make man something he is not. Man's way is to get an easy place, and indulge appetite and selfish ambition. God's plan is to set man to work in reformatory lines, then he will learn by experience how long he has pampered fleshly appetites, and ministered to his own temperament, bringing weakness upon himself. God's way is to work in power. He gives the grace if the sick man realizes that he needs it. Man is too often satisfied to treat himself according to the methods of quackery, and he vindicates his manner of working as right. God proposes to purify and refine the defiled soul; then He will implant in the heart His own righteousness and peace and health, and man becomes complete in Him. Then the issues of life, proceeding from the heart, are represented as a well of water, springing up into everlasting life. {20MR 112.6}

This is the kingdom of God within you. Day by day men are revealing whether the kingdom of God is within them. If Christ rules in their hearts, they are gaining strength of principle, power, ability to stand as faithful sentinels, true reformers; for there can be no reform unless there is thorough cooperation with Jesus Christ. {20MR 113.1}

Through the grace of Christ men are to use their God-given faculties to reform themselves. By this self-denying action, which the Lord of heaven looks upon with approval, they gain victories over their wrong hereditary and cultivated tendencies. Then like Daniel they make impressions upon other hearts that will never be effaced. The influence will be carried to all parts of the world. {20MR 113.2}

Men are taking sides, according to their choice. These that are feeding on the Word of God will show this by their practice; they are on the Lord's side, seeking by precept and example to reform the world. All that have refused to be taught of God hold the traditions of men. They at last pass over on the side of the enemy, against God, and are written, Antichrist. The people of God, who understand our position in this world's history, are, with ears open and hearts softened and subdued, pressing together in unity, one with Jesus Christ. Those who will not practice the lessons of Christ, but keep themselves in hand, to mold themselves, find in Antichrist the center of their union. While the two parties stand in collision, the Lord will appear, and shine before His ancients gloriously. He will set up a kingdom that shall stand forever. {20MR 113.3}
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Perhaps it will help to try - " Conversion is" 96 - hits

"Candidates who have grown to manhood and womanhood should understand their duty better than do the younger ones; but the pastor of the church has a duty to do for these souls. Have they wrong habits and practices? It is the duty of the pastor to have special meetings with them. Give them Bible readings, converse and pray with them, and plainly show the claims of the Lord upon them. Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. Then the believing one can understandingly take to himself the promise, "Ask, and it shall be given you." Matt. 7:7. --Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 95. (1900) {Ev 311.1}
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Conversion is a work that most do not appreciate. It is not a small matter to transform an earthly, sin-loving mind and bring it to understand the unspeakable love of Christ, the charms of His grace, and the excellency of God, so that the soul shall be imbued with divine love and captivated with the heavenly mysteries. When he understands these things, his former life appears disgusting and hateful. He hates sin, and, breaking his heart before God, he embraces Christ as the life and joy of the soul. He renounces his former pleasures. He has a new mind, new affections, new interest, new will; his sorrows, and desires, and love are all new. . . . Heaven, which once possessed no charms, is now viewed in its riches and glory; and he contemplates it as his future home, where he shall see, love, and praise the One who hath redeemed him by His precious blood. The works of holiness, which appeared wearisome, are now his delight. The Word of God, which was dull and uninteresting, is now chosen as his study, the man of his counsel. It is as a letter written to him from God, bearing the inscription of the Eternal. His thoughts, his words, and his deeds are brought to this rule and tested. He trembles at the commands and threatenings which it contains, while he firmly grasps its promises and strengthens his soul by appropriating them to himself. {FLB 139.2}

When the transforming grace of Christ is upon the heart, a righteous indignation will take possession of the soul because the sinner has so long neglected the great salvation that God has provided for him. He will then surrender himself, body, soul, and spirit, to God and will withdraw from companionship with Satan, through the grace given him of God. {FLB 139.3}

All need to understand the process of conversion. The fruit is seen in the changed life. {FLB 139.4}

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None are living Christians unless they have a daily experience in the things of God and daily practice self-denial, cheerfully bearing the cross and following Christ. Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day; and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality. . . . {AG 291.4}

Religion is not merely an emotion, a feeling. It is a principle which is interwoven with all the daily duties and transactions of life. . . . It is continuance in well-doing that will form characters for heaven. {AG 291.5}

We must live for Christ minute by minute, hour by hour, and day by day; then Christ will dwell in us, and when we meet together, His love will be in our hearts, welling up like a spring in the desert, refreshing all, and making those who are ready to perish, eager to drink of the waters of life. {AG 291.6}
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For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Eph. 2:8. {AG 319.1}

The apostle desired those to whom he was writing to remember that they must reveal in their lives the glorious change wrought in them by Christ's transforming grace. They were to be lights in the world, by their purified, sanctified characters exerting an influence counter to the influence of satanic agencies. They were ever to remember the words, "Not of yourselves." They could not change their own hearts. And when by their efforts souls were led from the ranks of Satan to take their stand for Christ, they were not to claim any credit for the transformation wrought. {AG 319.2}

God calls upon all who will to come and drink of the waters of life freely. The power of God is the one element of efficiency in the grand work of obtaining the victory over the world, the flesh, and the devil. It is in accordance with the divine plan that we follow every ray of light given of God. Man can accomplish nothing without God, and God has arranged His plans so as to accomplish nothing in the restoration of the human race without the cooperation of the human with the divine. The part man is required to sustain is immeasurably small, yet in the plan of God it is just that part that is needed to make the work a success. {AG 319.3}

The great change that is seen in the life of a sinner after conversion is not brought about by any human goodness. . . . {AG 319.4}

He who is rich in mercy has imparted His grace to us. Then let praise and thanksgiving ascend to Him, because He has become our Saviour. Let His love, filling our hearts and minds, flow forth from our lives in rich currents of grace. When we were dead in trespasses and sins, He quickened us into spiritual life. He brought grace and pardon, filling the soul with new life. Thus the sinner passes from death to life. He now takes up his new duties in Christ's service. His life becomes true and strong, filled with good works. "Because I live," Christ said, "ye shall live also." . . . {AG 319.5}

There will be no second probation. Now, while it is called today, if we will hear the voice of the Lord, and turn fully to Him, He will have mercy upon us, and abundantly pardon. {AG 319.6}
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I'de better quit copying, pasteing & posting.......lots & lots & lots . I highly reccomend getting an EGW CD Rom (3.0 Library Edition is more user friendly & cheaper - demand a printed manual.)

Oh Well ...JUST ONE MORE [A double quote]

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Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Acts 3:19. {HP 20.1}

In order to be saved, we must know by experience the meaning of true conversion. It is a fearful mistake for men and women to go on day by day professing to be Christians yet having no right to the name. In God's sight profession is nothing, position is nothing. He asks, Is the life in harmony with My precepts? There are many who suppose that they are converted but who are not able to bear the test of character presented in the Word of God. . . . {HP 20.2}

Conversion is a change of heart, a turning from unrighteousness to righteousness. Relying upon the merits of Christ, exercising true faith in Him, the repentant sinner receives pardon for sin. As he ceases to do evil and learns to do well, he grows in grace and in the knowledge of God. He sees that in order to follow Jesus he must separate from the world, and after counting the cost, he looks upon all as loss if he may but win Christ. He enlists in His army and bravely and cheerfully engages in the warfare, fighting against natural inclinations and selfish desires and bringing the will into subjection to the will of Christ. Daily he seeks the Lord for grace, and he is strengthened and helped. Self once reigned in his heart, and worldly pleasure was his delight. Now self is dethroned, and God reigns supreme. His life reveals the fruit of righteousness. The sins he once loved he now hates. Firmly and resolutely he follows in the path of holiness. This is genuine conversion. . . . {HP 20.3}

Let us not forget that in his conversion and sanctification man must cooperate with God. "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," the Word declares. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12, 13). Man cannot transform himself by the exercise of his will. He possesses no power by which this change may be affected. The renewing energy must come from God. The change can be made only by the Holy Spirit. He who would be saved, high or low, rich or poor, must submit to the working of this power. {HP 20.4}

Chap. 15 - God's Grace Transforms the Life

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7. {HP 21.1}

The great truth of the conversion of the heart by the Holy Spirit is presented in Christ's words to Nicodemus: "Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above {margin}, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . . That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:3-6). {HP 21.2}

It is by the renewing of the heart that the grace of God works to transform the life. No mere external change is sufficient to bring us into harmony with God. There are many who try to reform by correcting this bad habit or that bad habit, and they hope in this way to become Christians, but they are beginning in the wrong place. Our first work is with the heart. . . . {HP 21.3}

The leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are aroused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. {HP 21.4}

The Scriptures are the great agency in this transformation of character. Christ prayed, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (John 17:17). If studied and obeyed, the Word of God works in the heart, subduing every unholy attribute. The Holy Spirit comes to convict of sin, and the faith that springs up in the heart works by love to Christ, conforming us, body, soul, and spirit, to His will. {HP 21.5}

A man sees his danger. He sees that he needs a change of character, a change of heart. He is stirred; his fears are aroused. The Spirit of God is working in him, and with fear and trembling he works for himself, seeking to find out his defects of character and to see what he can do to bring about the needed change in his life. . . . He confesses his sins to God, and if he has injured anyone, he confesses the wrong to the one he has injured. . . . He acts in harmony with the Spirit's working, and his conversion is genuine. {HP 21.6}

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Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited August 27, 2001).]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am very convinced, from the quotes Edward just shared, that Ellen White believed in a radical conversion from a life of sin to a life without sin. Or did I miss something?

I heard her say that unless we come to the place where we covet nothing but Christ and His righteousness that it is a mistake to claim to be Christian. I don't think she's talking about those moments of weakness when we fall back into sin, but rather I believe she is talking about the general trend of choice and character development.

A genuine born again Christian will not secretly cling to some pet darling sin. Nor will they often manifest a spirit of pride, selfishness, impatience, or vain glory. Nor will they be pre-occupied with their Spirit-powered good fruit. While walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man they do not and cannot commit a known moral sin. See 1 John 3:9. That's good news to me.

I believe if God's people understood the truth about genuine conversion they would do far more fighting the good fight of faith and far less sinning and repenting. We sin without a fight because we fight without a faith. How sad.

All the power of heaven is at our disposal to make us more than conquerors in Christ Jesus. Sin loses all it's power and appeal at the Cross. Are you tempted? Cling to the Cross of Calvary. Camp at the Cross until the love of Jesus fills your soul with hope and victory. And believe that victory is possible and beautiful.

Jesus will never leave you, nor forsake you. Stay close to Jesus, even if it means you must sweat great drops of blood in order not to crucify Him afresh. Thank you, Lord. Enlighten and empower your people to fight the good fight of faith, is my prayer. Amen!

By the way, if the sanctuary doesn't teach us how Jesus saves us from a life of sin, then what does it teach? Ellen White's masterpiece volume - The Great Controversy - goes into great detail on how the sanctuary symbolizes salvation. But I still can't remember the title of that one compilation that deals specifically with this topic. Sorry.

As to your last post Mike, I think that is a new topic! Feel free to start one if you desire.

I was reading Hebrews 6 this morning wherein Paul states that the foundation of following Christ is repentance and faith in God. Built on that are the doctrines of baptism, etc (v.2 - sorry I can't remember the rest). Upon this foundation we are to build perfection. Without this foundation, we cannot ever hope to become perfect. It is a continual work. If we should ever reach a point where we say "I have become perfect" and sit back to enjoy it, we will grieve the Spirit and fall away.

Perfection is possible only through Christ. I cannot achieve perfection alone, only Christ in me can achieve Perfection in me. It is the point where others look at me and see Him that I am perfect.

One of our speakers at campmeeting spoke about being born again. I will look up my notes when I get home and share with you more tomorrow.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the matter this morning.

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Sarah Moss
Psalms 103 - I am blessed!

Thank you, Sarah, for re-emphasizing that we cannot achieve freedom from sin, and that we must rather receive it as gift from God through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. Moral perfection isn't something we achieve, not even by cooperating with the Holy Spirit. Instead, it's what we "receive" as a gift from God. We "cease from sin" when we "crucify the old man" habts of sin, and "walk in the Spirit" and mind of the "new man" in "heavenly places." See 1 Peter 4:1,2; Rom 6:6; Gal 5:16; Eph 4:24 and Eph 2:4-6.

Once converted and born again a new man in Christ, the Holy Spirit then empowers us from within to mature in the fruit of the Spirit. We don't gradually accumulate them over a period of lifetime, so that by the time we are old we have finally arrived. What does take a lifetime of living is the process of maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. This process is eternal, and not even in heaven or the new earth will we ever say - I am completely mature and further growth in grace is now impossible.

Note these EGW quotes:

"The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing." {DA 676.4}

"God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All
righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes." {COL 330.2}

Amen! Although some people might feel these thoughts are threatening. I, myself, take them as the promises of God. Good news. It does not take God our entire lifetime to empower us to live without the burden of committing known sin. Of course, we will not be preoccupied with our righteousness, the righteousness of Christ reproduced through us, rather our eyes are upon Jesus and His wonderful love for us. We cannot experience the joy of salvation apart from abiding in Christ as He abided in the Father.

Okay, here are a few quotes on the relationship between the sanctuary and the plan of salvation. I believe they show that Ellen White made a connection between the two.

"The intercession of Christ in man's behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon the cross. By His death He began that work which after His resurrection He ascended to
complete in heaven. We must by faith enter within the veil, "whither the forerunner is for us entered." Hebrews 6:20. There the light from the cross of Calvary is reflected. There we may gain a clearer insight into the mysteries of redemption. The salvation of man is accomplished at an
infinite expense to heaven; the sacrifice made is equal to the broadest demands of the broken law of God. Jesus has opened the way to the Father's throne, and through His mediation the sincere desire of all who come to Him in faith may be presented before God." {GC 489.1}

"The typical service was the connecting link between God and Israel. The sacrificial offerings were designed to prefigure the sacrifice of Christ, and thus to preserve in the hearts of the people an unwavering faith in the Redeemer to come. Hence, in order that the Lord might accept their sacrifices, and continue His presence with them, and, on the other hand, that the people might have a correct knowledge of the plan of salvation,
and a right understanding of their duty, it was of the utmost importance that holiness of heart and purity of life, reverence for God, and strict obedience to His requirements, should be maintained by all connected with the sanctuary (ST Dec. 1, 1881)." {2BC 1010.3}

"This is the great day of atonement, and our Advocate is standing before the Father, pleading as our intercessor. In place of wrapping about us the garments of self-righteousness, we should be found daily humbling ourselves before God, confessing our own individual sins, seeking the pardon of our transgressions, and cooperating with Christ in the work of preparing our souls to reflect the divine image. Unless we enter the
sanctuary above, and unite with Christ in working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, we shall be weighed in the balances of the sanctuary, and shall be pronounced wanting (MS 168, 1898)." {7BC 933.14}

"The great Sacrifice had been offered, and had been accepted, and the Holy Spirit which descended on the day of Pentecost carried the minds of the disciples from the earthly Sanctuary to the heavenly, where Jesus had
entered by his own blood, and shed upon his disciples the benefits of his atonement. The Jews were left in complete deception and total darkness. They lost all the light they might have had upon the plan of salvation,
and still trusted in their useless sacrifices and offerings. They could not be benefited by the mediation of Christ in the Holy place. The heavenly Sanctuary had taken the place of the earthly, yet they had no
knowledge of the way to the heavenly." {1SG 169.1}

There is a sanctuary in heaven which is real. The old sanctuary pre-figured the sacrifice of Christ, and His work for us. I still haven't seen any comparisons or conclusions to match yours, Mike. That's not to say you are incorrect. But at this time I can't see that as correct. I'll keep on.

I agree, the sanctuary symbolizes the work Jesus has, is and will do for us. But does it exclude us? If it has to do with what Jesus is doing for us, then how can it not include us?

For example, does Jesus' death on the cross in the outer court mean we don't have to crucify our old man habits of sin on the altar? Does Jesus' resurrection from the laver mean we don't have to be born again?

Does Jesus' presence in the holy place mean we don't have to let our light shine (candle stick), pray (altar of incense) or eat the bread of life (table of showbread)?

Do you see what I mean? What Jesus does for us is also what He does in and through us. And these things are symbolized in the sanctuary. If not, then what does the sanctuary say about our salvation experience both in terms of justification and sanctification? Would someone like to respond?

1. Also, did we ever determine what the Bible says about - At what point are we actually born again? Do we experience rebirth before or after we completely crucify our old man habits of sin? See Rom 6.

2. Are we considered a new man in Christ if we are still clinging to some pet darling moral defect of character? See 2 Cor 5:17.

3. And is there any such thing as an unknown moral defect of character which a born again believer can commit without realizing it because God is waiting for the right time to reveal it to him? See Rom 1:18-32 and Gal 5:19-21 and 2 Tim 3:1-7.

Addressing Daryl's question about when we are born again, I have a sermon entitled "Born again and again and again." One of the primary points is that if we like Paul die daily, we must be born again daily. When are we born again? If you don't die to sin daily, and are not reborn in Christ daily, it isn't happening for you!

I would like a direct response to this:
Does a tree bring forth fruit instantly or does that fruit have to develop?
and the second is:
Is obedience a fruit of the Spirit?
Sometimes I feel I've made a particular point, but it's not addressed, and the same premise is simply re-stated without a response to what I feel are serious questions. If they can't be answered, then please explain why. Object lessons other than the sanctuary have been given to illustrate the development of the christian life. As with all protestant study, one example can't be used alone without the qualifying effects of other texts.

Wedntgp,

Your sermon on this topic sounds interesting, therefore, I invite you to post it in the Messages/Sermons forum and I will then link it in this topic as a reference.

The dying (dieing) daily that Paul speaks about is something to be explored in this topic.

_________________________
In His Love,Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Zyph

Mark 4:
26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.
30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Only as plants mature do they bring forth their matured harvest. The verses & quotes never suggest that a passage of time is not involved.
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"If the followers of Christ were but earnest seekers after wisdom, they would be led into rich fields of truth as yet wholly unknown to them. He who will give himself fully to God will be guided by the divine hand. He may be lowly and apparently ungifted; yet if with a loving, trusting heart he obeys every intimation of God's will, his powers will be purified, ennobled, energized, and his capabilities will be increased. As he treasures the lessons of divine wisdom, a sacred commission will be entrusted to him; he will be enabled to make his life an honor to God and a blessing to the world. "The entrance of Thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple." Psalm 119:130. {AA 283.3}

There are today many as ignorant of the Holy Spirit's work upon the heart as were those believers in Ephesus; yet no truth is more clearly taught in the word of God. Prophets and apostles have dwelt upon this theme. Christ Himself calls our attention to the growth of the vegetable world as an illustration of the agency of His Spirit in sustaining spiritual life. The sap of the vine, ascending from the root, is diffused to the branches, sustaining growth and producing blossoms and fruit. So the life-giving power of the Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Saviour, pervades the soul, renews the motives and affections, and brings even the thoughts into obedience to the will of God, enabling the receiver to bear the precious fruit of holy deeds. {AA 284.1}

The Author of this spiritual life is unseen, and the exact method by which that life is imparted and sustained, it is beyond the power of human philosophy to explain. Yet the operations of the Spirit are always in harmony with the written word. As in the natural, so in the spiritual world. The natural life is preserved moment by moment by divine power; yet it is not sustained by a direct miracle, but through the use of blessings placed within our reach. So the spiritual life is sustained by the use of those means that Providence has supplied. If the follower of Christ would grow up "unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:13), he must eat of the bread of life and drink of the water of salvation. He must watch and pray and work, in all things giving heed to the instructions of God in His word. {AA 284.2}
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"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren,"

Peter continued, "see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently." The word of God--the truth--is the channel through which the Lord manifests His Spirit and power. Obedience to the word produces fruit of the required quality --"unfeigned love of the brethren." This love is heaven-born and leads to high motives and unselfish actions. {AA 519.3}

When truth becomes an abiding principle in the life, the soul is "born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." This new birth is the result of receiving Christ as the Word of God. When by the Holy Spirit divine truths are impressed upon the heart, new conceptions are awakened, and the energies hitherto dormant are aroused to co-operate with God. {AA 520.1}

Thus it had been with Peter and his fellow disciples. Christ was the revealer of truth to the world. By Him the incorruptible seed--the word of God--was sown in the hearts of men. But many of the most precious lessons of the Great Teacher were spoken to those who did not then understand them. When, after His ascension, the Holy Spirit brought His teachings to the remembrance of the disciples, their slumbering senses awoke. The meaning of these truths flashed upon their minds as a new revelation, and truth, pure and unadulterated, made a place for itself. Then the wonderful experience of His life became theirs. The Word bore testimony through them, the men of His appointment, and they proclaimed the mighty truth, "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, . . . full of grace and truth." "And of His fullness have all we received, and grace for grace." John 1:14, 16. {AA 520.2}

The apostles exhorted the believers to study the Scriptures, through a proper understanding of which they might make sure work for eternity. Peter realized that in the experience of every soul who is finally victorious there would be scenes of perplexity and trial; but he knew also that an understanding of the Scriptures would enable the tempted one to bring to mind promises that would comfort the heart and strengthen faith in the Mighty One. {AA 521.1}
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(notice circumstances holding people back & the effects of the power & love of Truth.)

The message will be carried not so much by argument as by the deep conviction of the Spirit of God. The arguments have been presented. The seed has been sown, and now it will spring up and bear fruit. The publications distributed by missionary workers have exerted their influence, yet many whose minds were impressed have been prevented from fully comprehending the truth or from yielding obedience. Now the rays of light penetrate everywhere, the truth is seen in its clearness. . . . A large number take their stand upon the Lord's side.--The Great Controversy, p. 612. (1888) {CM 152.1}
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(here's how Jesus looks at folks trying to obey Him.)

Here is declared the same truth that Jesus had revealed to Nicodemus when He said, "Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3, margin. Not by seeking a holy mountain or a sacred temple are men brought into communion with heaven. Religion is not to be confined to external forms and ceremonies. The religion that comes from God is the only religion that will lead to God. In order to serve Him aright, we must be born of the divine Spirit. This will purify the heart and renew the mind, giving us a new capacity for knowing and loving God. It will give us a willing obedience to all His requirements. This is true worship. It is the fruit of the working of the Holy Spirit. By the Spirit every sincere prayer is indited, and such prayer is acceptable to God. Wherever a soul reaches out after God, there the Spirit's working is manifest, and God will reveal Himself to that soul. For such worshipers He is seeking. He waits to receive them, and to make them His sons and daughters. {DA 189.2}

As the woman talked with Jesus, she was impressed with His words. Never had she heard such sentiments from the priests of her own people or from the Jews. As the past of her life had been spread out before her, she had been made sensible of her great want. She realized her soul thirst, which the waters of the well of Sychar could never satisfy. Nothing that had hitherto come in contact with her had so awakened her to a higher need. Jesus had convinced her that He read the secrets of her life; yet she felt that He was her friend, pitying and loving her. While the very purity of His presence condemned her sin, He had spoken no word of denunciation, but had told her of His grace, that could renew the soul. She began to have some conviction of His character. The question arose in her mind, Might not this be the long-looked-for Messiah? She said to Him, "I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when He is come, He will tell us all things." Jesus answered, "I that speak unto thee am He." {DA 189.3}

As the woman heard these words, faith sprang up in her heart. She accepted the wonderful announcement from the lips of the divine Teacher. {DA 190.1}

This woman was in an appreciative state of mind. She was ready to receive the noblest revelation; for she was interested in the Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit had been preparing her mind to receive more light. She had studied the Old Testament promise, "The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto Him ye shall hearken." Deut. 18:15. She longed to understand this prophecy. Light was already flashing into her mind. The water of life, the spiritual life which Christ gives to every thirsty soul, had begun to spring up in her heart. The Spirit of the Lord was working with her. {DA 190.2}

The plain statement made by Christ to this woman could not have been made to the self-righteous Jews. Christ was far more reserved when He spoke to them. That which had been withheld from the Jews, and which the disciples were afterward enjoined to keep secret, was revealed to her. Jesus saw that she would make use of her knowledge in bringing others to share His grace. {DA 190.3}

------------------
Edward F Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited September 08, 2001).]

Mike, I think the name of the book you are looking for is Christ In His Sanctuary.

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Jesus is the joy of living
_________________________

Linda

Thank you, Ed. That reaffirms what my understanding of the process. And I agree profoundly with Wendtgp, that yesterday's conversion isn't sufficient for today.
Mike, I'd be very interested if you would do a breakdown of these statements in the context of your interpretation. While I agree with you that there are clear statements regarding our capacity to overcome sin through grace, I disagree that sin is not a big issue. It cost the life of the Son of God, and is the whole essence of the controversy. It permeates our lives - even our bodies - and is the thing we hate when we're close to the Lord. There are too many references to striving and fighting - albeit in the Lord's strength - for me to believe that sin is not a biggie. Of course our eyes are to be kept fixed on Jesus, and not our sins, but even after changing direction, we are born again sinners. Our spiritual lives are now intact, but morality is a thing that develops over time.

Doesn't it?

Hello. I was away on business again. Sorry for not responding sooner. Zyph, I'm sorry I gave the impression that sin is no biggie. I agree with you that it is a terrible thing. Something we must continually fight to resist unto the glory of God.

I have a question - When Paul says, "I die daily" (1 Cor 15:31), are we to assume that he means we fall into sin daily and must therefore recrucify the old man? Or does he mean that by the indwelling grace (power) of God we must daily maintain the death of the old man?

Regarding Zyph's two questions: I believe a seed develops into a plant that eventually bears ripe fruit. According to this illustration when did rebirth take place? From my point of view, using this analogy, a person is considered born again when the seed is planted. And the subsequent growth symbolizes maturing in the fruit of the Spirit from childhood to manhood.

Is obedience a fruit of the Spirit? If it's "obedience [that leads] unto righteousness" (Rom 6:16) then I would say, Yes. But if it's partial obedience I would say, No. For example, before a person is born again they may respond to the influence of the Holy Spirit to give up this and that moral defect of character, but resist giving up certain pet darling sins. Under these circumstances I believe the Bible teaches that such a person is not truly converted.

Zyph, I'm sorry your questions and comments sometimes go unnoticed. I know the feeling. But hang in there, they eventually get addressed. You might have to repeat them from time to time.

What does it mean - We must be born again and again and again? Does it mean we are never really born again at all? Or does it mean we must maintain our born again status by refusing to resurrect our crucified old man? Or does it mean we never do have victory over sin therefore we must be born again every time God decides to reveal a new defect of character?

Concerning the quotes Edward shared: I believe they support what I have been sharing. And that is, a person experiences a spiritual rebirth the moment they come to that place where they would rather die than cling to some cherished moral defect of character that recrucifies Jesus.

Please understand what I am not saying about rebirth. I am not saying once saved always saved. We always have the option to resurrect the mind of the old man and revert back to some previous habit of sin. But a person cannot be born again, that is, receive the sinless seed of the new man mind, until they totally surrrender themselves to Jesus and decide against all pet darling sins.

I'm not saying they must first be a full grown adult in the faith before they can experience rebirth. But I am saying they must first be "willing" to give up all moral defects of character before they can receive the gift of the new man mind. Then the Holy Spirit can empower them from within their soul temple, through the mind of the new man, to not only "will" but also to "do of His good pleasure." Phil 2:13.

We cannot experience Phil 2:13 until we crucify the old man habits of sin. Phil 2:13 is fulfilled exclusively through the mind of the new man, which is the gift we receive after we're born again, after we come to the place where we would rather die than cling to sin.

Would anyone like to address the questions I listed several posts ago? And Linda, thank you for finding out the name of the EGW compilation on the sanctuary and salvation.

Are there any examples of born again persons in the Old Testament?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

I agree, the sanctuary symbolizes the work Jesus has, is and will do for us. But does it say nothing about our own personal experience? If it has to do with what Jesus is doing for us, then how can it not also include our walk in the faith?

For example, does Jesus' death in the outer court mean we don't have to crucify our old man habits of sin on the altar? Does Jesus' resurrection from the laver mean we don't have to be buried, baptized and born again?

Does Jesus' presence in the holy place mean we don't have to let our light shine (candle stick), pray (altar of incense) or eat the bread of life (table of showbread)?

Do you see what I mean? What Jesus does for us is also what He does in and through us. And these things are symbolized in the sanctuary. If not, then what does the sanctuary say about our salvation experience both in terms of justification and sanctification? Would someone like to respond?

1. Also, did we ever determine what the Bible says about - At what point are we actually born again? Do we experience rebirth before or after we completely crucify our old man habits of sin? See Rom 6.

2. Are we considered a new man in Christ if we are still clinging to some pet darling moral defect of character? See 2 Cor 5:17.

3. And is there any such thing as an unknown moral defect of character which a born again believer can commit without realizing it because God is waiting for the right time to reveal it to him? See Rom 1:18-32 and Gal 5:19-21 and 2 Tim 3:1-7.

Now who's avoiding answering my question!

_________________________
In His Love,Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Repentant Adam, Eve. Abel, Seth - and those that followed him, Enoch, Noah, and some of their respective families.

Where ever you find people seeking God and showing evidence of following Him. There are the born again folks. Their amassed knowledge is not the evidence, following what they do have is the evidence.

The sanctification of the soul by the working of the Holy Spirit is the implanting of Christ's nature in humanity. Gospel religion is Christ in the life--a living, active principle. It is the grace of Christ revealed in character and wrought out in good works. The principles of the gospel cannot be disconnected from any department of practical life. Every line of Christian experience and labor is to be a representation of the life of Christ. {COL 384.1}
Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within--when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart and is revealed in the countenance. {COL 384.2}
It is not possible for the heart in which Christ abides to be destitute of love. If we love God because He first loved us, we shall love all for whom Christ died. We cannot come in touch with divinity without coming in touch with humanity; for in Him who sits upon the throne of the universe, divinity and humanity are combined. Connected with Christ, we are connected with our fellow men by the
385
golden links of the chain of love. Then the pity and compassion of Christ will be manifest in our life. We shall not wait to have the needy and unfortunate brought to us. We shall not need to be entreated to feel for the woes of others. It will be as natural for us to minister to the needy and suffering as it was for Christ to go about doing good. {COL 384.3}
Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God's Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The "Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. {COL 385.1}
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"Contrary to worldly kingdoms, Christ does not find his subjects,--he makes them. Those who stand under the blood-stained banner of Prince Immanuel are the subjects of a kingdom not recognized by worldly kingdoms, whose subjects have wandered from their allegiance to God, from their obedience to the law of his kingdom. These are accounted as dead in trespasses and sins. They are destitute of the Spirit of God, which worketh in the children of obedience. {RH, June 21, 1898 par. 35}

"I am come, Christ said, to set up a new kingdom. Except a man be born of the Spirit, he can not be enrolled as a subject of my kingdom."--Testimony, Jan. 11, 1897. {RH, June 21, 1898 par. 36}
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Notice Solomon in his amassed knowledge & power & apostacy, but the demoniacs set free and immediatly put to work. While Solomon bowed to what was forbidden, and these set free gentiles testified of the Saviour......who was born again & who backslide and again dead in trespasses and sins?

------------------
Edward F Sutton

Okay Daryl, this one's for you. Sorry I skipped over your post. But have you noticed how times my posted questions go untouched? No big deal. Perhaps someone some day will address them.

OT born again followers of God Almighty? Besides the one's Edward mentioned, how about - Job, Moses, David, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jonah... etc, etc, etc.

Jonah? Yes, even that old sour puss. Was it a sin for Jonah to be upset with God? I hope not. If we can't question what God does, then we are more miserable than all others. It would be a sin to turn our backs on God and lead a life of worldliness because we are upset with Him. But to be upset with Him is normal under the circumstances Jonah was faced with. It's similar to a lovers quarrel.

I think we sometimes make righteousness out to be something it isn't. If we are truly experiencing godliness, like Jesus did, then most people would be unable to pick us out of a crowd. There are alot of people who are too proud to stoop to low sins, i.e., drugs, murder, theft, rudeness, etc.

But polished behaviour is no substitute for genuine heaven-born godliness, even though the casual observer might not never know the difference. Not being bad is not being good. And neither is being good necessarily being godly. Christlikeness is the fruit of walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

How can we know if we're born again? Who do we love to spend time with? Of whom do we love to speak? Who is the loving recipient of our deepest devotions? If we can honestly answer these kinds of questions with - Jesus, then we may know that we are born again. Also our fruits will be in harmony with our profession.

Being born again is something that happens on a specific day. On that day we crucify our old man habits of sin, our cherished defects of character, and we also receive the gift of the sinless seed of the new man mind.

From that day forward it is our privilege to walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man in unbroken victory over temptation and continual maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. Unfortunately most of us, from time to time, resurrect our old man habits of sin and indulge (either deliberately or accidentally) some old sinful trait of character.

But this doesn't undo what we've experienced in the mind of the new man. Slipping back into the mind of the old man does not eliminate or eradicate the mind of the new man.

To get back into the mind of the new man we must accept the gift of repentance, which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and gives God the legal right to pardon our sin and to restore us to the Spirit and mind of the new man.

And so long as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot commit a moral sin. See 1 John 3:9. Sin happens in the mind of the old man. It cannot happen in the mind of the new man.

Living without sin is not possible if we haven't received the gift of the sinless seed of the new man mind. See Eph 4:24. And we do not receive this gift until after we have completely crucified our old man character habits of sin, until after we have come to the place in our experience with Jesus where we would rather die than cling to some pet darling sin.

I do not believe that the Bible says we gradually experience rebirth over the course of a lifetime of sinning and repenting. We are born again a new man in Christ Jesus the very moment we give up our last cherished idol to serve the Lord with all our heart, mind, body and soul.

Conversion isn't something that is dragged out over a lifetime of sinning less and less often. We are converted the very second we receive Jesus into our life without reserving the right to sin here and there. In that second of time we are imbued with the Spirit and mind of the new man.

Well, that's how I see it. What do you think?

At what point in his life was Noah born again?

Before the flood?

After the flood?

Both before and after the flood?

Did Noah ever sin after being born again?

_________________________
In His Love,Mercy & Grace

Daryl

From the Bible record it seems clear to me that Noah was converted long before the Deluge. Yes, he fell into drunkeness and no doubt he repented. But just because a born again believer slips back into the mind of the old man, does that prove him unconverted or that he was never truly converted in the first place? I think not. What about you?

1. Did we ever determine what the Bible says about - At what point are we actually born again? Do we experience rebirth before or after we completely crucify our old man habits of sin? See Rom 6.

2. Are we considered a new man in Christ if we are still clinging to some pet darling moral defect of character? See 2 Cor 5:17.

3. And is there any such thing as an unknown moral defect of character which a born again believer can commit without realizing it because God is waiting for the right time to reveal it to him? See Rom 1:18-32 and Gal 5:19-21 and 2 Tim 3:1-7.

Is it really necessary that a person stands out in the full blaze of some long series of evangelistic sermons, weighing every single argument presented as pro or con - all before they make their decision for eternal life? No! Of course not!

“Some have lived in sadness for years, waiting for some marked evidence that they were accepted by God. After a time, some of these do receive evidence of their acceptance with God, and they are led then to identify themselves with His people; and they date their conversion from this time.”

Ellen White saw the fact that this “dating” of our conversion is sometimes misapplied, as she continues: “They were adopted into the family of God before that time [however]. God accepted them when they became weary of sin, and having lost the desires for the world’s pleasures, resolved to seek God earnestly. The work of grace on the heart is not an instantaneous work.

It is affected by continual, daily watching and believing the promises of God. The repentant, believing one who cherishes and earnestly desires the renewing grace of Christ; God will not turn away empty. He will give him grace, and ministering angels will aid him , as he perseveres in his efforts to advance.” (Manuscript 55. 1910).

A person's relation to eternal life may be determined by their attitude towards a very small beam of light. Jesus Himself has promised: "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me; and [anyone] that cometh to Me, I will in no wise cast out." (Jo.6:37).

David, great quotes. Truly we may know we are right with God when it is in our hearts and habits to align our lives in harmony with His will and way as demonstated in the life of Jesus.

Would you be willing to take some time to address the 3 questions I listed above?

In the same line of thoughts I would like to bring these statements to your attention:

"We cannot have an inclination to come to Christ unless He sets in motion influences and impresses His Spirit upon the human mind. And if there is a man on the face of the earth who has any inclination toward God, it is because of the many influences that are set to work to bear upon his mind and heart. Those influences call for the allegiance to God and an appreciation of the great work that God has done for him. Then don't let us ever say that we can repent of ourselves, and then Christ will pardon. No, indeed, it is the favor of God that pardons. It is the favor of God that leads us by His power to repentance. Therefore it is all of Jesus Christ, everything of Him, and you want to just give back glory to God." Acts 5:31; F.W.73.

"The Lord Jesus imparts all the power, all the grace, all the penitence, all the inclination, all the pardon of sins, in presenting His righteousness for man to grasp by living faith." Ibid, p.24. "Faith comes by hearing the word of God." Rom.10:17. "All His commandments are righteousness." Ps.119:172; "All the words of My mouth are with righteousness." Prov.8:8. "The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness." Isaiah 45:23.

"He who will lay hold of Christ's righteousness need not wait one moment that he himself may blot out his own sins. He need not wait until he has made a suitable repentance before he may take hold upon Christ's righteousness." Ibid, p.64.

"Some seem to feel that they must be on probation and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they can claim His blessing. But these dear souls may claim His blessing even now. They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities or they cannot form a Christian character. Jesus loves to have us come to Him just as we are--now and ever--sinful, helpless, dependent." Ibid, p.38; D.A.317.

Dependent upon the words of His mouth which impart righteousness! "And righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God." M.B.18. "I will never forget Your commandments, for by them You have given me life." Ps.119:50,93.

"How I love the law of Your mouth! It is more precious to me than thousands of shekels of gold and silver." Ps.119:72.

"The law of the Lord--of His mouth--is perfect, converting the soul." Ps.19:7.

The commandments of His mouth are more to be desired than gold, yea than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb! Ps.19:7-10.

"Having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides for ever." 1 Peter 1:22-25; James 1:18; John 1:13.

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: adventbeliever ]

Amen! Yes, the Spirit of God labors long to draw us to the point of ceasing from sin so that we may experience the miracle of rebirth. Once converted we receive the divinely implanted seed of the sinless mind of the new man, which "after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Eph 4:24. Then we may grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit.