TE: We know that at first the angels were confused as to the principles of God's government. They cried out for vengeance. They wanted God to destroy His enemies whenever they dared to defy Him.

MM: Please post a quote confirming this point. Thank you.

TE: “With an intense interest God's movements were watched by the heavenly angels. Would He come forth from His place to punish the inhabitants of the world for their iniquity? Would He send fire or flood to destroy them? All heaven waited the bidding of their Commander to pour out the vials of wrath upon a rebellious world. One word from Him, one sign, and the world would have been destroyed. The worlds unfallen would have said, "Amen. Thou art righteous, O God, because Thou hast exterminated rebellion."

TE: I have to admit their reaction, as described in "Reflecting Christ," is a bit curious. Sin had never had to be dealt with, so apparently even the angels had quite a bit to learn about how wonderful God really is.

MM: Can you blame the holy angels for waiting and wondering what God would do just before the incarnation of Jesus? Hadn’t God commanded them before to destroy sinners with fire and flood? It’s interesting to me that even before Jesus died on the cross the unfallen worlds would have acknowledged the justice of God in destroying the wicked. Had He done so would they have served Him out of fear? Apparently not!

EGW: Satan is a deceiver. When he sinned in heaven, even the loyal angels did not fully discern his character. This was why God did not at once destroy Satan. Had He done so, the holy angels would not have perceived the justice and love of God. (COL 72)

MM: This insight seems at odds with the quote from RC. What do you make of it? If the angels were anxious to destroy sinners just before the incarnation of Jesus, and would have been fine with it, why weren’t they ready for God to destroy Satan when he sinned? What happened between the fall of Lucifer and just before the incarnation of Jesus that caused the angels to be cool with destroying sinners? And all this before Jesus demonstrated the principles of the GC, before Satan severed the ties of sympathy between him and the unfallen angels.

…………………..

TE: The GC continues because the Gospel has not been preached to all nations.

MM: I agree. But there is more to it.

EGW: Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}

…………………

TE: If the issue were simply legal, then He could have come and died right away.

MM: Why do you think so?

TE: Because His death would have been just as effecacious immediately as it would have been 4,000 years later.

MM: He is, after all, the Lamb slain from the foundation of world! However, we disagree as to why His life and death were required. Most importantly, though, we agree that His life and death revealed the truth about God’s character and kingdom, that they motivate us to love and trust God, and to repent and cease sinning. We will probably never agree that His death also served as a substitute death for pardoned sinners, that God had to punish and destroy Jesus as our substitute because the integrity of the law and the security of the universe required it, that it was necessary in order for God to have the legal right to pardon and save sinners.

R: The main reason, in my opinion, why Christ couldn't have come just after Adam and Eve's sin is that Satan must first be given time to demonstrate the principles and results of his government, in order that, when Christ came, in the last act of murdering Him, the ties of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world could be forever severed.

MM: Doesn't this imply that the Fall of man was necessary? that 6,000 years of sinning was required to punish and destroy sinners? What if mankind hadn't sinned? Would God have destroyed the evil angels? And, what about the point I made in my previous post? Namely, this one:

"If the angels were anxious to destroy sinners just before the incarnation of Jesus, and would have been fine with it, why weren’t they ready for God to destroy Satan when he sinned? What happened between the fall of Lucifer and just before the incarnation of Jesus that caused the angels to be cool with destroying sinners? And all this before Jesus demonstrated the principles of the GC, before Satan severed the ties of sympathy between him and the unfallen angels."

We indeed do not agree in this.

God did not have to do any such thing in order to love, to forgive, to be merciful, and faithful. But there were those that doubted and accused, found fault, were jealous and condemning; those that usurped the law to demand revenge. Yet, it is those that God sought to save, and he gave his Son to bring them and us to light, and into their wicked hands was willing to deliver him so that they and we could see love, and forgiveness; and that they and we might loathe our justice that usurps the law for revenge.

When we thus see the truth, then are we able to partake of God’s grace, mercy, forgiveness, and receive his righteousness/judgment by faith. Thus being set free from the snare of the enemy, we have become the sons of God. Thus by the blood of the Lamb we have overcome the wicked one, and have been set free from the law of sin and death, to the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

JB: God did not have to do any such thing in order to love, to forgive, to be merciful, and faithful.

MM: True. Please note that no one disagrees with you on this crucial truth. But how do you explain the holy angels eagerly awaiting the command of God to punish and destroy sinners?

John, that was very well put, and heart-warming as well.

MM, do you agree with the rest of John's post as well? I'm wondering if "everyone agrees with this critical truth" includes John's whole post, or if you meant to limit your "everyone agrees" comment to just the snippet you quoted.

TE: We know that at first the angels were confused as to the principles of God's government. They cried out for vengeance. They wanted God to destroy His enemies whenever they dared to defy Him.

MM: Please post a quote confirming this point. Thank you.

Already responded to this. #81829 question #2.

TE: “With an intense interest God's movements were watched by the heavenly angels. Would He come forth from His place to punish the inhabitants of the world for their iniquity? Would He send fire or flood to destroy them? All heaven waited the bidding of their Commander to pour out the vials of wrath upon a rebellious world. One word from Him, one sign, and the world would have been destroyed. The worlds unfallen would have said, "Amen. Thou art righteous, O God, because Thou hast exterminated rebellion."

TE: I have to admit their reaction, as described in "Reflecting Christ," is a bit curious. Sin had never had to be dealt with, so apparently even the angels had quite a bit to learn about how wonderful God really is.

MM: Can you blame the holy angels for waiting and wondering what God would do just before the incarnation of Jesus? Hadn’t God commanded them before to destroy sinners with fire and flood? It’s interesting to me that even before Jesus died on the cross the unfallen worlds would have acknowledged the justice of God in destroying the wicked. Had He done so would they have served Him out of fear? Apparently not!

I think the issue is not being seen here. DA 764 speaks of it.



It is this evil seed of doubt that needed to be avoided. God needed to deal with sin in such a way that it would be evident that the destruction which results from sin comes from sin and not from Himself. Otherwise beings would have been motivated to worship Him from a motive of fear. The Pharisees showed what the results of such worship are. To use EGW's words, sullen obdience produces the character of a rebel. She also says such religion is worth nothing (that is, religion motivated by fear; that's from the SC section you had me read from, or just after).

EGW: Satan is a deceiver. When he sinned in heaven, even the loyal angels did not fully discern his character. This was why God did not at once destroy Satan. Had He done so, the holy angels would not have perceived the justice and love of God. (COL 72)

MM: This insight seems at odds with the quote from RC. What do you make of it? If the angels were anxious to destroy sinners just before the incarnation of Jesus, and would have been fine with it, why weren’t they ready for God to destroy Satan when he sinned?

The angels weren't aware of the dangers involved in worshipping God out of a motivation of fear; God was!

What happened between the fall of Lucifer and just before the incarnation of Jesus that caused the angels to be cool with destroying sinners?

What are you talking about? You'll have to fill me in as to why your asking this question.

And all this before Jesus demonstrated the principles of the GC, before Satan severed the ties of sympathy between him and the unfallen angels.

I don't know what your saying here. What's "this"?

…………………..

TE: The GC continues because the Gospel has not been preached to all nations.

MM: I agree. But there is more to it.

EGW: Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}

The principles will be fully revealed when the Gospel is preached, so preaching the Gospel will be sufficient to bring things to an end.

…………………

TE: If the issue were simply legal, then He could have come and died right away.

MM: Why do you think so?

TE: Because His death would have been just as effecacious immediately as it would have been 4,000 years later.

MM: He is, after all, the Lamb slain from the foundation of world! However, we disagree as to why His life and death were required. Most importantly, though, we agree that His life and death revealed the truth about God’s character and kingdom, that they motivate us to love and trust God, and to repent and cease sinning. We will probably never agree that His death also served as a substitute death for pardoned sinners,

I actually agree with this, as I've stated many, many times; probably over 50 by now.

that God had to punish and destroy Jesus as our substitute because the integrity of the law and the security of the universe required it, that it was necessary in order for God to have the legal right to pardon and save sinners.

Yes, I agree that this part, that God has to kill someone in order to forgive someone else, doesn't make sense to me.

MM: What happened between the fall of Lucifer and just before the incarnation of Jesus that caused the angels to be cool with destroying sinners? And all this before Jesus demonstrated the principles of the GC, before Satan severed the ties of sympathy between him and the un-fallen angels.

TE: What are you talking about? You'll have to fill me in as to why your asking this question. I don't know what your saying here. What's "this"?

MM: The RC 58 quote makes it clear that the unfallen worlds were ready for God to command the holy angles to destroy, to exterminate the wicked. “The worlds unfallen would have said, ‘Amen. Thou art righteous, O God, because Thou hast exterminated rebellion.’” And all this before Jesus died on the cross.

……………………

EGW: “Before Christ's first advent, the sin of refusing to conform to God's law had become widespread. Apparently Satan's power was growing; his warfare against heaven was becoming more and more determined. A crisis had been reached. With an intense interest God's move-ments were watched by the heavenly angels. Would He come forth from His place to punish the inhabitants of the world for their iniquity? Would He send fire or flood to destroy them? All heaven waited the bidding of their Commander to pour out the vials of wrath upon a rebellious world. One word from Him, one sign, and the world would have been destroyed. The worlds unfallen would have said, "Amen. Thou art righteous, O God, because Thou hast exterminated rebellion." {RC 58.4}

TE: I have to admit their reaction, as described in "Reflecting Christ," is a bit curious. Sin had never had to be dealt with, so apparently even the angels had quite a bit to learn about how wonderful God really is.

MM: Can you blame the holy angels for waiting and wondering what God would do just before the incarnation of Jesus? Hadn’t God commanded them before to destroy sinners with fire and flood? It’s interesting to me that even before Jesus died on the cross the unfallen worlds would have acknowledged the justice of God in destroying the wicked. Had He done so would they have served Him out of fear?

EGW: At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764.2)

TE: It is this evil seed of doubt that needed to be avoided. God needed to deal with sin in such a way that it would be evident that the destruction which results from sin comes from sin and not from Himself. Otherwise beings would have been motivated to worship Him from a motive of fear. The Pharisees showed what the results of such worship are. To use EGW's words, sullen obdience produces the character of a rebel. She also says such religion is worth nothing (that is, religion motivated by fear; that's from the SC section you had me read from, or just after).

MM: But the quote from RC 58 isn’t talking about the same time period as the one in DA 764. It seems to me that after watching the GC unfold for 4,000 years the unfallen worlds were ripe and ready for God to punish and destroy the wicked – and this was before Jesus died on the cross. There is nothing about the following insight that even remotely implies that what they had in mind was God withdrawing His protection and allowing Satan to unleash the pent up forces of nature:

“All heaven waited the bidding of their Commander to pour out the vials of wrath upon a rebel-lious world. One word from Him, one sign, and the world would have been destroyed. The worlds unfallen would have said, ‘Amen. Thou art righteous, O God, because Thou hast exter-minated rebellion.’" {RC 58.4}

………………….

EGW: Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}

TE: The principles will be fully revealed when the Gospel is preached, so preaching the Gospel will be sufficient to bring things to an end.

MM: What don’t the angels know about the gospel? How will watching us preach the gospel help the angels “understand all that was involved in the great controversy”? What does “Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness” mean? When and how will it happen?

…………………..

TE: Yes, I agree that this part, that God has to kill someone in order to forgive someone else, doesn't make sense to me.

MM: Did God kill Jesus on the cross? Or, did Jesus lay down His own life? He said, “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” (John 10:17, 18)

I believe Jesus tasted and consumed our sin and second death on the cross. I do not believe God killed Him. The Father was with the Son when He laid down his own life. The reason Jesus had to do what He did on the cross was because the law required it. To earn the legal to par-don and save sinners Jesus had to pay the sin debt. The law demands a sin substitute, which is why Jesus became sin for us.

Golgotha revealed a different kind of victory over sin and destruction of sin and sinners to them. Obviously, God was not eager like them; but was long-suffering. It is not by attacking but by bearing that the victory was won. So not only did he suffer long in saving us from our unbelief, but he also suffered their disposition and eagerness in this matter, and had mercy toward the angels, that he might reconcile them to himself also. So even though they may not have sinned after the manner of unbelief; yet in their judgment, it was not the same spirit as in the Father; however they restrained themselves to see God's judgment. The glory of God as revealed in Christ was to reconcile all, including those eager Angels who did not have fullness of God’s glory in them.

• Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
  Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

• Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Note the manner of destruction, and the nature of the battle fought.

MM: What happened between the fall of Lucifer and just before the incarnation of Jesus that caused the angels to be cool with destroying sinners? And all this before Jesus demonstrated the principles of the GC, before Satan severed the ties of sympathy between him and the un-fallen angels.

TE: What are you talking about? You'll have to fill me in as to why your asking this question. I don't know what your saying here. What's "this"?

MM: The RC 58 quote makes it clear that the unfallen worlds were ready for God to command the holy angles to destroy, to exterminate the wicked. “The worlds unfallen would have said, ‘Amen. Thou art righteous, O God, because Thou hast exterminated rebellion.’” And all this before Jesus died on the cross.

Why is this important?

……………………

EGW: “Before Christ's first advent, the sin of refusing to conform to God's law had become widespread. Apparently Satan's power was growing; his warfare against heaven was becoming more and more determined. A crisis had been reached. With an intense interest God's move-ments were watched by the heavenly angels. Would He come forth from His place to punish the inhabitants of the world for their iniquity? Would He send fire or flood to destroy them? All heaven waited the bidding of their Commander to pour out the vials of wrath upon a rebellious world. One word from Him, one sign, and the world would have been destroyed. The worlds unfallen would have said, "Amen. Thou art righteous, O God, because Thou hast exterminated rebellion." {RC 58.4}

TE: I have to admit their reaction, as described in "Reflecting Christ," is a bit curious. Sin had never had to be dealt with, so apparently even the angels had quite a bit to learn about how wonderful God really is.

MM: Can you blame the holy angels for waiting and wondering what God would do just before the incarnation of Jesus? Hadn’t God commanded them before to destroy sinners with fire and flood? It’s interesting to me that even before Jesus died on the cross the unfallen worlds would have acknowledged the justice of God in destroying the wicked. Had He done so would they have served Him out of fear?

EGW: At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764.2)

TE: It is this evil seed of doubt that needed to be avoided. God needed to deal with sin in such a way that it would be evident that the destruction which results from sin comes from sin and not from Himself. Otherwise beings would have been motivated to worship Him from a motive of fear. The Pharisees showed what the results of such worship are. To use EGW's words, sullen obdience produces the character of a rebel. She also says such religion is worth nothing (that is, religion motivated by fear; that's from the SC section you had me read from, or just after).

MM: But the quote from RC 58 isn’t talking about the same time period as the one in DA 764.

The important point is the principle involved, which has to do with God's wishing that His true character be seen. It is knowing God as He is in truth which eliminates fear. Serving God out of fear leads to bad things. "Such religion is worth nothing" as EGW puts it. What the RC quote shows is that the angels learned about God's character from the cross, which is the point I was making.

It seems to me that after watching the GC unfold for 4,000 years the unfallen worlds were ripe and ready for God to punish and destroy the wicked – and this was before Jesus died on the cross. There is nothing about the following insight that even remotely implies that what they had in mind was God withdrawing His protection and allowing Satan to unleash the pent up forces of nature:

“All heaven waited the bidding of their Commander to pour out the vials of wrath upon a rebel-lious world. One word from Him, one sign, and the world would have been destroyed. The worlds unfallen would have said, ‘Amen. Thou art righteous, O God, because Thou hast exter-minated rebellion.’" {RC 58.4}

Right. You're making my point. The angels did not understand that death is the inevitable result of sin. They were confused as to the true nature of death, until the cross. That's what DA 764 points out. Without the cross, they were in danger of being confused by Satan's death, which could have created an "evil seed of doubt."

………………….

EGW: Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}

TE: The principles will be fully revealed when the Gospel is preached, so preaching the Gospel will be sufficient to bring things to an end.

MM: What don’t the angels know about the gospel? How will watching us preach the gospel help the angels “understand all that was involved in the great controversy”? What does “Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness” mean? When and how will it happen?

Not the angels. Man.

…………………..

TE: Yes, I agree that this part, that God has to kill someone in order to forgive someone else, doesn't make sense to me.

MM: Did God kill Jesus on the cross? Or, did Jesus lay down His own life? He said, “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” (John 10:17, 18)

I believe Jesus tasted and consumed our sin and second death on the cross. I do not believe God killed Him. The Father was with the Son when He laid down his own life. The reason Jesus had to do what He did on the cross was because the law required it. To earn the legal to par-don and save sinners Jesus had to pay the sin debt. The law demands a sin substitute, which is why Jesus became sin for us.

DA 25, I think it is, says Christ suffered the death that was ours (meaning, of course, the death we would have died had Christ not come). So if God did not kill Him, then He won't kill the wicked.