TV: Mike, that wasnt very clear. What about adding what you read from these verses in your own words?

MM: I believe the passages I posted tells us that God is merciful and gracious, quick to pardon the penitent, slow to wrath, but He will by no means cover the impenitent with the blood stained robe of Christ’s righteousness.

Is that what you believe?

Tom, I believe your quotes and my qotes harmonize. Here's how - the fruit of faith is obedience. The faith Paul mentioned in your quotes is the same faith mentioned in my quotes, that is, "faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6) "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (Jam 2:17) "For whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Rom 14:23)

Romans
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 Corinthians
6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians
2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

James
2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Maybe. God wont cover someone who died in rebellion. But it also seems that if God would not have taken the initiative, come here and lived and died and lived again as Jesus, and done this in benefit of all men ever to live, none of us would stand a chance. Without first being covered with that robe of Christs, nothing you ever do nor anything you can ever think up to do will have any merit whatsoever before God. Indeed, nothing we ever can do will ever have any merit towards our salvation. Grace must come before justice or we are all doomed, lost, hopeless.
Doesnt Paul also write that a christian who is secure in Gods grace has nothing to fear of Gods justice?

Mercy, we are not dead for our sins.
Grace, we are counted sons/daughters of God by adoption by Him.
Justice, God will judge righteously, to each after the seed that has been sown.

I ordered the list in my preceding post in chronology.
This I dont write lightly. It is one point where there are more potential to stumble than if running a hurdle race with ones eyes blinded. It is often seen taken either too lightly or too literally or too strongly or all three at once. It is the paradox with the same Master who said,
Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
Also said,
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And what is the word that He spoke? A word that says things like,
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

And,
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

And,
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

And,
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

And,
Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

True are the words which Paul wrote,
1Co 10:12 Therefore, the person who thinks he is standing securely should watch out that he does not fall.

But the he also wrote,
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

So our standing is always in Gods grace and the works of faith are beside that. Is what I think now for I am not fully learned in this.

/Thomas

TV: Maybe. God wont cover someone who died in rebellion.

MM: I agree.

TV: But it also seems that if God would not have taken the initiative, come here and lived and died and lived again as Jesus, and done this in benefit of all men ever to live, none of us would stand a chance.

MM: Amen!

TV: Without first being covered with that robe of Christs, nothing you ever do nor anything you can ever think up to do will have any merit whatsoever before God.

MM: Yes, before God covers us with the robe of Christ’s righteousness all our good deeds are filthy rags. We must first die to self and experience the miracle of rebirth before God can or will cover us with Jesus’ robe of righteousness.

TV: Indeed, nothing we ever can do will ever have any merit towards our salvation. Grace must come before justice or we are all doomed, lost, hopeless. Doesnt Paul also write that a christian who is secure in Gods grace has nothing to fear of Gods justice?

MM: Yes, and amen!

TV: Mercy, we are not dead for our sins.

MM: True. This applies to believers and unbelievers alike. We owe our temporal existence and probation to the life and death and resurrection and mediation of Jesus. Of course this does not mean we are “worthy” of eternal life before we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour and experience the miracle of rebirth.

TV: Grace, we are counted sons/daughters of God by adoption by Him.

MM: Verily.

TV: Justice, God will judge righteously, to each after the seed that has been sown. … This I dont write lightly. It is one point where there are more potential to stumble than if running a hurdle race with ones eyes blinded. It is often seen taken either too lightly or too literally or too strongly or all three at once. It is the paradox with the same Master who said,

MM: During judgment God will reward us according to our words and works. Good works testify to the salvation Jesus earned for us. The presence of unconfessed and unforsaken sins and the absence of good works is evidence that we refused to be saved. God will take no one to heaven whose sins witness against them, who refused to be saved.

DA 555, 556
No repentance is genuine that does not work reformation. The righteousness of Christ is not a cloak to cover unconfessed and unforsaken sin; it is a principle of life that transforms the character and controls the conduct. Holiness is wholeness for God; it is the entire surrender of heart and life to the indwelling of the principles of heaven. {DA 555.6}

TV: It is the paradox with the same Master who said …

MM: To the casual observer, the statements you contrasted appear to contradict one another, but you and I know they are in perfect harmony.

TV: So our standing is always in Gods grace and the works of faith are beside that. Is what I think now for I am not fully learned in this.

MM: As I understand it, salvation is a complete package. Grace and faith and good works converge like merging rivers in the hearts and minds of those who serve Jesus with an eye single to the honor and glory of God our Father.

7T 276
The ethics inculcated by the gospel acknowledge no standard but the perfection of God's mind, God's will. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole. Everyone who receives Christ as his personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. This is the science of holiness. {7T 276.5}

TV: Without first being covered with that robe of Christs, nothing you ever do nor anything you can ever think up to do will have any merit whatsoever before God.

MM: Yes, before God covers us with the robe of Christ’s righteousness all our good deeds are filthy rags. We must first die to self and experience the miracle of rebirth before God can or will cover us with Jesus’ robe of righteousness.

-What you and I say here are the pure opposites. I say first we are covered with the grace of God, you say we first die to self and then are covered by the grace of God.

-----------------

MM: True. This applies to believers and unbelievers alike. We owe our temporal existence and probation to the life and death and resurrection and mediation of Jesus. Of course this does not mean we are “worthy” of eternal life before we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour and experience the miracle of rebirth.

TV: Grace, we are counted sons/daughters of God by adoption by Him.

-That is why it is called grace. If we had been worthy, it wouldnt have been grace but wages or earned right. Paul knew this.

--------------------

-The words that will judge us are well found in the sermon on the mount. Are you on safe ground there Mike? Does the text judge you when you read it, the examples I picked out and the rest of the text? Does it comfort you or does it scare you? Do you live according to this standard to your best knowledge? Unless I have badly missunderstood your view, for you to know that you fall short of the standard of Jesus would cause a belongings chrisis for you. Is this not true? That is why you and I need the grace in the gospel.

/Thomas

TV: What you and I say here are the pure opposites. I say first we are covered with the grace of God, you say we first die to self and then are covered by the grace of God.

MM: I used the expression “robe of righteousness” not the “grace of God”. Do you see a difference?

TV: That is why it is called grace. If we had been worthy, it wouldnt have been grace but wages or earned right. Paul knew this.

MM: Did you notice that the word “worthy” was placed in quotation? Here’s where I got it from:

2 Thessalonians
1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

What do you think Paul meant when he used the word “worthy”?

……………….

TV: The words that will judge us are well found in the sermon on the mount. Are you on safe ground there Mike? Does the text judge you when you read it, the examples I picked out and the rest of the text? Does it comfort you or does it scare you? Do you live according to this standard to your best knowledge?

MM: When I am abiding in Jesus I am sure of my salvation. I do not doubt it. I know who I am in Jesus. “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as [Jesus] is righteous.” (1 John 3:7)

TV: Unless I have badly missunderstood your view, for you to know that you fall short of the standard of Jesus would cause a belongings chrisis for you. Is this not true? That is why you and I need the grace in the gospel.

MM: Grace does not excuse willful sinning. The only reason believers commit known sins is because they stop abiding in Jesus. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6) Indeed, it is grace that empowers us to abide in Jesus, to cease sinning, to reproduce His lovely traits of character. It was Paul who wrote, “Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” (Heb 12:28)

Do you think I have misunderstood or misapplied these Bible principles?

TV: What you and I say here are the pure opposites. I say first we are covered with the grace of God, you say we first die to self and then are covered by the grace of God.

MM: I used the expression “robe of righteousness” not the “grace of God”. Do you see a difference?

-The order of events. Is it applied first or only after some level of achivement.

TV: That is why it is called grace. If we had been worthy, it wouldnt have been grace but wages or earned right. Paul knew this.

MM: Did you notice that the word “worthy” was placed in quotation? Here’s where I got it from:

2 Thessalonians
1:3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

What do you think Paul meant when he used the word “worthy”?


- I think the reason for worthiness is found in the preceding verses, aboundantly growing faith, increasing love each had for the others, endurance and patience and faith in persecutions and hardships. Their lives showed whos they where.

……………….

TV: Unless I have badly missunderstood your view, for you to know that you fall short of the standard of Jesus would cause a belongings chrisis for you. Is this not true? That is why you and I need the grace in the gospel.

MM: Grace does not excuse willful sinning. The only reason believers commit known sins is because they stop abiding in Jesus. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6) Indeed, it is grace that empowers us to abide in Jesus, to cease sinning, to reproduce His lovely traits of character. It was Paul who wrote, “Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” (Heb 12:28)

Do you think I have misunderstood or misapplied these Bible principles?

-I do not know, for 1 John 3:6 is preceded by 1 John 1:8-9. Hebrews 12:28 is in the context of comparing the instable earth with the stable Kingdom. I must think more on that one.

I recently heard a sermon series on 1 John, which explained that Johns purpose with the letter was to assure its readers of their salvation and standing before God. I think thats true.

TV: The order of events. Is it applied first or only after some level of achivement.

MM: Which one? Grace? Or, the robe of Christ’s righteousness? I believe God made the first move by graciously granting us a period of probation to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. Once we die to self and experience the miracle of rebirth God covers us with the robe of Christ’s righteousness.

COL 312
By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {COL 311.4}

………………..

TV: I think the reason for worthiness is found in the preceding verses, aboundantly growing faith, increasing love each had for the others, endurance and patience and faith in persecutions and hardships. Their lives showed whos they where.

MM: We are NOT saved because we do things worthy of eternal life, but such things testify that Jesus has saved us. Right?

………………….

TV: I do not know, for 1 John 3:6 is preceded by 1 John 1:8-9. Hebrews 12:28 is in the context of comparing the instable earth with the stable Kingdom. I must think more on that one.

MM: Okay. Here’s another question to ponder. Does 1 John 1:6-10 teach us that Jesus cannot empower us to cease sinning, that we are destined to sin over and over again until He returns?

1 John
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Or, is John addressing Gnosticism, combating the Greek idea that we have never sinned, therefore, we have no sins to confess?

…………………..

TV: I recently heard a sermon series on 1 John, which explained that Johns purpose with the letter was to assure its readers of their salvation and standing before God. I think thats true.

MM: I agree. When I am abiding in Jesus, I am sure of my salvation. I do not doubt it. I know who I am in Jesus. “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as [Jesus] is righteous.” (1 John 3:7) It's the blessed assurance!

1 John
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.