Ok, let's try this again. You are now saying that drinking does not apply? So no person who drinks moderately, say has a glass of red win with supper, will be saved? (i.e. go to heaven) Regarding smoking, let's take prospective SDA's who go to evangelistic meetings off the table and just deal with John Q. Public who goes to a Billy Graham crusade and gives his life to Christ. Can such a person be born again while continuing to smoke?

Regarding the quotes, I've not met anyone ever who takes the position you do that God reveals every sinful habit before we are born again, nor have I met anyone who understand Ellen White to be saying that. Apparently you don't either, because you make some exceptions, such as smoking for those who don't attend SDA evangelistic meetings. (I'm not sure where you stand on the drinking).

Martin Luther died a beer drinker. Will he be in heaven?

Martin Luther would probably had died much younger had he not drunk beer as living in cities and having access to fresh water are two concepts that rarely coexisted at that time.

TE: So no person who drinks moderately, say has a glass of red win with supper, will be saved? (i.e. go to heaven)

MM: The Bible forbids drinking wine. Not once in the Bible did God wink at drinking wine or strong drink. A Christian who insists that God condons moderate drinking is self-deceived. Will they be rewarded with eternal life when Jesus returns?

1 Corinthians
6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

…………………..

By the way, Tom, correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you approve of drinking wine moderately.

………………….

TE: Martin Luther died a beer drinker. Will he be in heaven?

MM: William Miller rejected the Sabbath, and God placed him in an early grave to prevent him from influencing others against the Sabbath. Will he be in heaven?

My point is, exceptions to the rule are not the rule. Luther’s ticket to heaven, in spite of his beer drinking, is not an argument in favor of drinking beer. Nor is it proof that conversions in 2006 happen in spite of drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes.

TE: So no person who drinks moderately, say has a glass of red win with supper, will be saved? (i.e. go to heaven)

MM: The Bible forbids drinking wine. Not once in the Bible did God wink at drinking wine or strong drink. A Christian who insists that God condons moderate drinking is self-deceived. Will they be rewarded with eternal life when Jesus returns?

So you believe that no person who drinks a glass of wine with their supper will be saved? Correct? This is what you seem to be saying. I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

How about those who take wine as a sacrament? Are they all lost as well?

1 Corinthians
6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

…………………..

By the way, Tom, correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you approve of drinking wine moderately.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? I also mentioned smoking. Do you think I approve of that as well?

………………….

TE: Martin Luther died a beer drinker. Will he be in heaven?

MM: William Miller rejected the Sabbath, and God placed him in an early grave to prevent him from influencing others against the Sabbath. Will he be in heaven?

My point is, exceptions to the rule are not the rule. Luther’s ticket to heaven, in spite of his beer drinking, is not an argument in favor of drinking beer. Nor is it proof that conversions in 2006 happen in spite of drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes.

I'm not arguing in favor of drinking beer or smoking cigarettes. I am arguing against your ideas. I am using these examples to demonstrate that your statement was wrong. You yourself are arguing against your own statement, because the moment you allow exceptions to the rule, such as smoking and drinking, you are recognizing that your statement is false.

Here's why your statement is wrong. You stated that before a person can be converted, the Holy Spirit most reveal every sinful habit, and they must all be confessed. This is without exception. The moment you provide exceptions, you demonstrate that your statement is wrong. You, like all the rest of us, believe that the Holy Spirit reveals *some* sinful habits, and doesn't reveal others (they are winked at, to use your language).

But for some reason you seem unwilling to recognize that what you originally said was wrong.

By the way, the year 2006 is irrelevant. If the Holy Spirit must reveal all sinful habits before a person can be converted in 2006, then He must do so in every other year as well. The principles of conversion have not changed.

I read that anicent near eastern language sceince suggests that "strong drink" might be refering to beer rather than wine. Futhermore, I would like to point out that the bible stating that drunkards wont be inside of heaven doesnt nessessarily mean that all drinking of alcoholic beverage is forbiden since it obviously only is an excessive drinking of alcohol over an extended period of time that a drunkard make.

TE: So you believe that no person who drinks a glass of wine with their supper will be saved? Correct? This is what you seem to be saying. I want to make sure I understand you correctly. How about those who take wine as a sacrament? Are they all lost as well?

MM: God forbids wine drinking. He does not condone moderate wine drinking. Jesus refused to allow something fermented to touch His lips, even when it would have helped to deaden the pain of crucifixion. For someone who believes Jesus is our example in all things, I am surprised you are defending drinking wine. People in well-informed nations like America who insist moderate wine drinking is acceptable with God are self-deceived. Whether they will be lost or saved is up to God. He is the judge, not you or me.

………………………

What do the following passages teach us about wine drinking?

1 Corinthians
6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

………………………

MM: By the way, Tom, correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you approve of drinking wine moderately.

TE: How did you arrive at this conclusion? I also mentioned smoking. Do you think I approve of that as well?

MM: You didn’t answer my question. Besides, it wasn’t a conclusion. It is a question. Also, in light of what Thomas just posted (82847), do you agree with him?

……………………….

TE: You, like all the rest of us, believe that the Holy Spirit reveals *some* sinful habits, and doesn't reveal others (they are winked at, to use your language).

MM: Let’s look at from this perspective. Jesus said, in no uncertain terms, that baptism is a requisite rite to inherit eternal life. And yet He told the thief on the cross that he would be in heaven. In the same way, no one can experience rebirth without first accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour. And yet unknown numbers of “Gentiles” who never named the name of Jesus will be in heaven. How can God say one thing and do another?

…………………………..

TE: By the way, the year 2006 is irrelevant. If the Holy Spirit must reveal all sinful habits before a person can be converted in 2006, then He must do so in every other year as well. The principles of conversion have not changed.

MM: I believe why certain people will be in heaven depends on different factors. I mentioned certain extenuating circumstances above. Another one relates to the loud cry of the latter rain. There will come a time when extenuating circumstances will not allow anyone to enter heaven. The reason I mentioned 2006 is because there are certain extenuating circumstances that no longer apply to people living in well-informed nations like America, i.e., smoking and drinking.

Being in the habbit of geting drunk is bad for your salvation is what we learn from this text. Not sure what precisely it teaches about the drinking of wine... Unless you are trying to say that it is wrong to get drunk on wine while beer or spirits is quite ok.

Thomas, are you of the opinion that God condones moderate wine drinking? that it's okay so long as one doesn't get drunk?

I am of the oppinion that the texts provided so far would support such a conclusion, yes.

Okay, thank you for being honest about it. More and more SDAs are coming to the same conclusion.