MM wrote (from another thread):



Are the following things prerequisites to being justified by faith?

1.The Holy Spirit must reveal to us all of our sinful habits (things we've actually done, not potential bad habits).
2.We must confess every sinful habit we have acquired since birth.

I've posted this in the Bible Study forum because I'm particularly interested in what the Bible teaches about conversion. What must one do to be saved (converted)?



Tom

Is Sister White invited to join this Bible study?

If Sister White is commenting on a particular Bible text relative to this topi,c I don't see why not.

No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty.

God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

What Bible text is this commenting on?

While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience.

Romans
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 Corinthians
6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians
2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

James
2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It is said that
Justice is getting what we deserve,
Mercy is not getting what we deserve,
Grace is getting what we do not deserve.

With that definition, Mike is on to Justice. The bible says Jesus offers grace.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Thomas, this is what I believe regarding love, mercy, grace, and justice:

Exodus
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Exodus
34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

Mike, that wasnt very clear. What about adding what you read from these verses in your own words?

TV: Mike, that wasnt very clear. What about adding what you read from these verses in your own words?

MM: I believe the passages I posted tells us that God is merciful and gracious, quick to pardon the penitent, slow to wrath, but He will by no means cover the impenitent with the blood stained robe of Christ’s righteousness.

Is that what you believe?

Tom, I believe your quotes and my qotes harmonize. Here's how - the fruit of faith is obedience. The faith Paul mentioned in your quotes is the same faith mentioned in my quotes, that is, "faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6) "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (Jam 2:17) "For whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Rom 14:23)

Romans
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 Corinthians
6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians
2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

James
2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Maybe. God wont cover someone who died in rebellion. But it also seems that if God would not have taken the initiative, come here and lived and died and lived again as Jesus, and done this in benefit of all men ever to live, none of us would stand a chance. Without first being covered with that robe of Christs, nothing you ever do nor anything you can ever think up to do will have any merit whatsoever before God. Indeed, nothing we ever can do will ever have any merit towards our salvation. Grace must come before justice or we are all doomed, lost, hopeless.
Doesnt Paul also write that a christian who is secure in Gods grace has nothing to fear of Gods justice?

Mercy, we are not dead for our sins.
Grace, we are counted sons/daughters of God by adoption by Him.
Justice, God will judge righteously, to each after the seed that has been sown.

I ordered the list in my preceding post in chronology.
This I dont write lightly. It is one point where there are more potential to stumble than if running a hurdle race with ones eyes blinded. It is often seen taken either too lightly or too literally or too strongly or all three at once. It is the paradox with the same Master who said,
Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
Also said,
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And what is the word that He spoke? A word that says things like,
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

And,
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

And,
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

And,
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

And,
Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

True are the words which Paul wrote,
1Co 10:12 Therefore, the person who thinks he is standing securely should watch out that he does not fall.

But the he also wrote,
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

So our standing is always in Gods grace and the works of faith are beside that. Is what I think now for I am not fully learned in this.

/Thomas

TV: Maybe. God wont cover someone who died in rebellion.

MM: I agree.

TV: But it also seems that if God would not have taken the initiative, come here and lived and died and lived again as Jesus, and done this in benefit of all men ever to live, none of us would stand a chance.

MM: Amen!

TV: Without first being covered with that robe of Christs, nothing you ever do nor anything you can ever think up to do will have any merit whatsoever before God.

MM: Yes, before God covers us with the robe of Christ’s righteousness all our good deeds are filthy rags. We must first die to self and experience the miracle of rebirth before God can or will cover us with Jesus’ robe of righteousness.

TV: Indeed, nothing we ever can do will ever have any merit towards our salvation. Grace must come before justice or we are all doomed, lost, hopeless. Doesnt Paul also write that a christian who is secure in Gods grace has nothing to fear of Gods justice?

MM: Yes, and amen!

TV: Mercy, we are not dead for our sins.

MM: True. This applies to believers and unbelievers alike. We owe our temporal existence and probation to the life and death and resurrection and mediation of Jesus. Of course this does not mean we are “worthy” of eternal life before we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour and experience the miracle of rebirth.

TV: Grace, we are counted sons/daughters of God by adoption by Him.

MM: Verily.

TV: Justice, God will judge righteously, to each after the seed that has been sown. … This I dont write lightly. It is one point where there are more potential to stumble than if running a hurdle race with ones eyes blinded. It is often seen taken either too lightly or too literally or too strongly or all three at once. It is the paradox with the same Master who said,

MM: During judgment God will reward us according to our words and works. Good works testify to the salvation Jesus earned for us. The presence of unconfessed and unforsaken sins and the absence of good works is evidence that we refused to be saved. God will take no one to heaven whose sins witness against them, who refused to be saved.

DA 555, 556
No repentance is genuine that does not work reformation. The righteousness of Christ is not a cloak to cover unconfessed and unforsaken sin; it is a principle of life that transforms the character and controls the conduct. Holiness is wholeness for God; it is the entire surrender of heart and life to the indwelling of the principles of heaven. {DA 555.6}

TV: It is the paradox with the same Master who said …

MM: To the casual observer, the statements you contrasted appear to contradict one another, but you and I know they are in perfect harmony.

TV: So our standing is always in Gods grace and the works of faith are beside that. Is what I think now for I am not fully learned in this.

MM: As I understand it, salvation is a complete package. Grace and faith and good works converge like merging rivers in the hearts and minds of those who serve Jesus with an eye single to the honor and glory of God our Father.

7T 276
The ethics inculcated by the gospel acknowledge no standard but the perfection of God's mind, God's will. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole. Everyone who receives Christ as his personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. This is the science of holiness. {7T 276.5}

TV: Without first being covered with that robe of Christs, nothing you ever do nor anything you can ever think up to do will have any merit whatsoever before God.

MM: Yes, before God covers us with the robe of Christ’s righteousness all our good deeds are filthy rags. We must first die to self and experience the miracle of rebirth before God can or will cover us with Jesus’ robe of righteousness.

-What you and I say here are the pure opposites. I say first we are covered with the grace of God, you say we first die to self and then are covered by the grace of God.

-----------------

MM: True. This applies to believers and unbelievers alike. We owe our temporal existence and probation to the life and death and resurrection and mediation of Jesus. Of course this does not mean we are “worthy” of eternal life before we accept Jesus as our personal Saviour and experience the miracle of rebirth.

TV: Grace, we are counted sons/daughters of God by adoption by Him.

-That is why it is called grace. If we had been worthy, it wouldnt have been grace but wages or earned right. Paul knew this.

--------------------

-The words that will judge us are well found in the sermon on the mount. Are you on safe ground there Mike? Does the text judge you when you read it, the examples I picked out and the rest of the text? Does it comfort you or does it scare you? Do you live according to this standard to your best knowledge? Unless I have badly missunderstood your view, for you to know that you fall short of the standard of Jesus would cause a belongings chrisis for you. Is this not true? That is why you and I need the grace in the gospel.

/Thomas

TV: What you and I say here are the pure opposites. I say first we are covered with the grace of God, you say we first die to self and then are covered by the grace of God.

MM: I used the expression “robe of righteousness” not the “grace of God”. Do you see a difference?

TV: That is why it is called grace. If we had been worthy, it wouldnt have been grace but wages or earned right. Paul knew this.

MM: Did you notice that the word “worthy” was placed in quotation? Here’s where I got it from:

2 Thessalonians
1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

What do you think Paul meant when he used the word “worthy”?

……………….

TV: The words that will judge us are well found in the sermon on the mount. Are you on safe ground there Mike? Does the text judge you when you read it, the examples I picked out and the rest of the text? Does it comfort you or does it scare you? Do you live according to this standard to your best knowledge?

MM: When I am abiding in Jesus I am sure of my salvation. I do not doubt it. I know who I am in Jesus. “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as [Jesus] is righteous.” (1 John 3:7)

TV: Unless I have badly missunderstood your view, for you to know that you fall short of the standard of Jesus would cause a belongings chrisis for you. Is this not true? That is why you and I need the grace in the gospel.

MM: Grace does not excuse willful sinning. The only reason believers commit known sins is because they stop abiding in Jesus. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6) Indeed, it is grace that empowers us to abide in Jesus, to cease sinning, to reproduce His lovely traits of character. It was Paul who wrote, “Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” (Heb 12:28)

Do you think I have misunderstood or misapplied these Bible principles?

TV: What you and I say here are the pure opposites. I say first we are covered with the grace of God, you say we first die to self and then are covered by the grace of God.

MM: I used the expression “robe of righteousness” not the “grace of God”. Do you see a difference?

-The order of events. Is it applied first or only after some level of achivement.

TV: That is why it is called grace. If we had been worthy, it wouldnt have been grace but wages or earned right. Paul knew this.

MM: Did you notice that the word “worthy” was placed in quotation? Here’s where I got it from:

2 Thessalonians
1:3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

What do you think Paul meant when he used the word “worthy”?


- I think the reason for worthiness is found in the preceding verses, aboundantly growing faith, increasing love each had for the others, endurance and patience and faith in persecutions and hardships. Their lives showed whos they where.

……………….

TV: Unless I have badly missunderstood your view, for you to know that you fall short of the standard of Jesus would cause a belongings chrisis for you. Is this not true? That is why you and I need the grace in the gospel.

MM: Grace does not excuse willful sinning. The only reason believers commit known sins is because they stop abiding in Jesus. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6) Indeed, it is grace that empowers us to abide in Jesus, to cease sinning, to reproduce His lovely traits of character. It was Paul who wrote, “Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” (Heb 12:28)

Do you think I have misunderstood or misapplied these Bible principles?

-I do not know, for 1 John 3:6 is preceded by 1 John 1:8-9. Hebrews 12:28 is in the context of comparing the instable earth with the stable Kingdom. I must think more on that one.

I recently heard a sermon series on 1 John, which explained that Johns purpose with the letter was to assure its readers of their salvation and standing before God. I think thats true.

TV: The order of events. Is it applied first or only after some level of achivement.

MM: Which one? Grace? Or, the robe of Christ’s righteousness? I believe God made the first move by graciously granting us a period of probation to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. Once we die to self and experience the miracle of rebirth God covers us with the robe of Christ’s righteousness.

COL 312
By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {COL 311.4}

………………..

TV: I think the reason for worthiness is found in the preceding verses, aboundantly growing faith, increasing love each had for the others, endurance and patience and faith in persecutions and hardships. Their lives showed whos they where.

MM: We are NOT saved because we do things worthy of eternal life, but such things testify that Jesus has saved us. Right?

………………….

TV: I do not know, for 1 John 3:6 is preceded by 1 John 1:8-9. Hebrews 12:28 is in the context of comparing the instable earth with the stable Kingdom. I must think more on that one.

MM: Okay. Here’s another question to ponder. Does 1 John 1:6-10 teach us that Jesus cannot empower us to cease sinning, that we are destined to sin over and over again until He returns?

1 John
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Or, is John addressing Gnosticism, combating the Greek idea that we have never sinned, therefore, we have no sins to confess?

…………………..

TV: I recently heard a sermon series on 1 John, which explained that Johns purpose with the letter was to assure its readers of their salvation and standing before God. I think thats true.

MM: I agree. When I am abiding in Jesus, I am sure of my salvation. I do not doubt it. I know who I am in Jesus. “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as [Jesus] is righteous.” (1 John 3:7) It's the blessed assurance!

1 John
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

This is hitting the nail on the head.

TV: What you and I say here are the pure opposites. I say first we are covered with the grace of God, you say we first die to self and then are covered by the grace of God.

MM: I used the expression “robe of righteousness” not the “grace of God”. Do you see a difference?

TV: The order of events. Is it applied first or only after some level of achivement.

MM: Which one? Grace? Or, the robe of Christ’s righteousness? I believe God made the first move by graciously granting us a period of probation to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. Once we die to self and experience the miracle of rebirth God covers us with the robe of Christ’s righteousness.

COL 312
By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {COL 311.4}

TE: “What you and I say here are the pure opposites. I say first we are covered with the grace of God, you say we first die to self and then are covered by the grace of God.” This is hitting the nail on the head.

MM: Tom, in light of the COL 312 quote posted above, do you agree with the following insight – “God made the first move by graciously granting us a period of probation to accept Jesus as our personal Saviour. Once we die to self and experience the miracle of rebirth God covers us with the robe of Christ’s righteousness.”

Or, do you believe God covers people with Jesus’ justifying robe of righteousness before they die to self, before the “heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him”?

MM, the following is in answer to your question to me.

When a person is brought into harmony with Christ, the person repents of that which they are aware of. It's no different than a reconciliation between two people.

Let's say a brother has wronged me, and for years he's angry at me, and does mean things. Then one day he comes to his senses, and he asks me for forgiveness. He says he's so sorry about whatever it was that first led to our disagreement, and he starts to mention some mean things he's done. I can see from his tone and mannerisms that's he's sincerely. He's really broke up, he's sorry, and wants to be reconciled.

What's my reaction? Do I say, "I'm not going to forgive you until you remember and confess every wrong thing you've done against me?"

Consider the father in the story of the prodigal son. The son had rehearsed a story, about how he wasn't worthy to return and wanted to come back as a servant, but the father didn't even let him say his confession. He could see his son had returned, and that's what he cared about.

When a person is converted, his heart changes. The heart of stone is replaced with a heart of flesh. He begins to see things from a new perspective, as God see things. But this is just the beginning of the journey. God doesn't rush to bring all the bad things to memory, just like we wouldn't do so if someone were asking us forgiveness.

As far as God is concerned, there is no need for us to confess anything, just as the prodigal son's father did not require confession. The confession is for our sake, not God's. He's already at peace with us, and always has been. He so loved us He gave us His Son. It is we who need to be reconciled to Him.

So God does what is necessary to bring *us* to repentance, to bring us into harmony with Him. If there is sin that needs to be confessed, because without being forgiven of it we cannot be forgiven and set right with Him, that God will bring that to our attention. But everything He does is for our benefit, for the sole purpose of setting us right. Then the healing starts.

Thank you, Tom. I think we both agree that God does not remind us of every sin we committed before we are born again. I am glad we can agree on this point. Indeed, God will do whatever it takes to influence and motivate us to sender ourselves to Jesus, to live for Him wholeheartedly. Thank you, Jesus!

Unfortunately, though, we do not agree on whether or not God can clothe us with Jesus' robe of justification and righteousness if we are still practicing one or more of the sinful habits we cultivated before we embarked upon the long, patient, protracted process of conversion.

But you yourself don't agree with what you are saying. You pointed out that God may wink at certain sinful habits. So one version of you agrees with me. I'm sorry the other version of you doesn't agree with the one that agrees with me.

TE: If there is sin that needs to be confessed, because without being forgiven of it we cannot be forgiven and set right with Him, that God will bring that to our attention.

MM: Of all the sinful habits we cultivated, by acting them out repeatedly, over and over again, which ones must be revealed, confessed, and forsaken BEFORE we can be set right with God?

..............

TE: But you yourself don't agree with what you are saying. You pointed out that God may wink at certain sinful habits. So one version of you agrees with me. I'm sorry the other version of you doesn't agree with the one that agrees with me.

MM: Yes, there are extenuating circumstances, which God takes into consideration, that has, from time to time, led Him not to reveal to certain people specific cultivated sinful habits. In some cases He revealed them to these people after they were born again, and in other cases He never did get around to it before they died.

But these cases are the exception, not the rule. Since 1844, with the advent of the SDA church and the worldwide proclamation of the truth, these cases are occurring less and less often. God is making fewer and fewer exceptions, especially in well-informed nations like America. During the loud dry of the latter rain there will be no exceptions.

Can we at least agree that God will clothe no one with the robe of Jesus’ justifying righteousness while they are practicing a known sinful habit?

TE: If there is sin that needs to be confessed, because without being forgiven of it we cannot be forgiven and set right with Him, that God will bring that to our attention.

MM: Of all the sinful habits we cultivated, by acting them out repeatedly, over and over again, which ones must be revealed, confessed, and forsaken BEFORE we can be set right with God?

The ones which God reveals to us. Or, to use your language, the ones God doesn't wink at.

..............

TE: But you yourself don't agree with what you are saying. You pointed out that God may wink at certain sinful habits. So one version of you agrees with me. I'm sorry the other version of you doesn't agree with the one that agrees with me.

MM: Yes, there are extenuating circumstances, which God takes into consideration, that has, from time to time, led Him not to reveal to certain people specific cultivated sinful habits. In some cases He revealed them to these people after they were born again, and in other cases He never did get around to it before they died.

Which agrees with what I wrote, and not with what you wrote, which is that every sinful habit had to be brought to mind committed from birth, and confessed. This was wrong.

But these cases are the exception, not the rule. Since 1844, with the advent of the SDA church and the worldwide proclamation of the truth, these cases are occurring less and less often. God is making fewer and fewer exceptions, especially in well-informed nations like America. During the loud dry of the latter rain there will be no exceptions.

Can we at least agree that God will clothe no one with the robe of Jesus’ justifying righteousness while they are practicing a known sinful habit?

Let's agree first that you were wrong to say that every sinful habit from birth must be revealed and confessed before one can be converted.

MM: Of all the sinful habits we cultivated, by acting them out repeatedly, over and over again, which ones must be revealed, confessed, and forsaken BEFORE we can be set right with God?

TE: The ones which God reveals to us. Or, to use your language, the ones God doesn't wink at.

MM: Tom, I wish you would stop trying to make it look like I believe the same way you do in this regard. I do not believe God winks at smoking and drinking in the same way you do. We are in no way on the same page. I qualified what I meant by explaining there may be extenuating circumstances, but they do not apply to people attending SDA evangelistic meetings in well-informed nations like America. Please acknowledge our differences, instead of trying to make it look like we are on the same page. Thank you.
……………………………….

Back to the topic at hand: I do not believe God will clothe anyone with the robe of Jesus' justifying righteousness while they are practicing known sins. A prerequisite of justification by faith is not practicing known sins.

Am I the only who believes this way?

MM: Of all the sinful habits we cultivated, by acting them out repeatedly, over and over again, which ones must be revealed, confessed, and forsaken BEFORE we can be set right with God?

TE: The ones which God reveals to us. Or, to use your language, the ones God doesn't wink at.

MM: Tom, I wish you would stop trying to make it look like I believe the same way you do in this regard. I do not believe God winks at smoking and drinking in the same way you do. We are in no way on the same page. I qualified what I meant by explaining there may be extenuating circumstances, but they do not apply to people attending SDA evangelistic meetings in well-informed nations like America. Please acknowledge our differences, instead of trying to make it look like we are on the same page. Thank you.

Please acknowledge that what you said was wrong. You said that God has to reveal every sinful habit and that sinful habit must be confessed before a person is converted. This is wrong. The moment you opened up exceptions you made this clear. You should admit your error.

I'm not trying to make it appear that we believe the same. There are profound differences in almost every point we hold, due to a profound difference in how we perceive God to be.


Back to the topic at hand: I do not believe God will clothe anyone with the robe of Jesus' justifying righteousness while they are practicing known sins. A prerequisite of justification by faith is not practicing known sins.

Am I the only who believes this way?

This is a different topic. You're pretty much quoting straight from the Spirit of Prophecy on this one. When you do that, people will agree with you. It's when you venture out, and introduce ideas that are not found in her writings or Scripture (such as the idea that every sinful habit must be revealed and confessed before one can be converted) that people disagree with you.
____________________

TE: Please acknowledge that what you said was wrong.

MM: It is not wrong. God has to reveal every sinful habit and every sinful habit must be confessed and crucified before a person can experience the miracle of rebirth.

I do not believe God winks at smoking and drinking in the same way you do. I qualified what I meant. The winking principle never did apply to drinking. And it does not apply to smoking for people attending SDA evangelistic meetings in well-informed nations like America.

Acts
17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

God no longer winks at smoking and drinking.

..................

MM: I do not believe God will clothe anyone with the robe of Jesus' justifying righteousness while they are practicing known sins. A prerequisite of justification by faith is not practicing known sins.

TE: You're pretty much quoting straight from the Spirit of Prophecy on this one. When you do that, people will agree with you.

MM: Hopefully.

TE: It's when you venture out, and introduce ideas that are not found in her writings or Scripture (such as the idea that every sinful habit must be revealed and confessed before one can be converted) that people disagree with you.

MM: Fortunately not everyone disagrees. They read inspired testimonies like the following quotes and conclude, as I have, that God does not wait to reveal certain sinful habits until sometime after we are born again.

MH 510
One evil habit, if not firmly resisted, will strengthen into chains of steel, binding the whole man. {MH 509.4}

PP 452
The removal of one safeguard from the conscience, the indulgence of one evil habit, one neglect of the high claims of duty, breaks down the defenses of the soul and opens the way for Satan to come in and lead us astray. {PP 452.2}

CS 334
In order to be saved, she must overcome all those peculiar, evil traits, and imitate the character of her divine Lord, seeking opportunity to do others good, loving others as Christ has loved us. {CS 334.1}

2T 73
They were not told the sin of yielding to the control of these evil traits; therefore sin does not appear to them so exceedingly sinful. {2T 73.1}

5T 175
Pride, ambition, deceit, hatred, selfishness, must be cleansed from the heart. With many these evil traits are partially subdued, but not thoroughly uprooted from the heart. Under favorable circumstances they spring up anew and ripen into rebellion against God. Here lies a terrible danger. To spare any sin is to cherish a foe that only awaits an unguarded moment to cause our ruin. {5T 174.3}

Ok, let's try this again. You are now saying that drinking does not apply? So no person who drinks moderately, say has a glass of red win with supper, will be saved? (i.e. go to heaven) Regarding smoking, let's take prospective SDA's who go to evangelistic meetings off the table and just deal with John Q. Public who goes to a Billy Graham crusade and gives his life to Christ. Can such a person be born again while continuing to smoke?

Regarding the quotes, I've not met anyone ever who takes the position you do that God reveals every sinful habit before we are born again, nor have I met anyone who understand Ellen White to be saying that. Apparently you don't either, because you make some exceptions, such as smoking for those who don't attend SDA evangelistic meetings. (I'm not sure where you stand on the drinking).

Martin Luther died a beer drinker. Will he be in heaven?

Martin Luther would probably had died much younger had he not drunk beer as living in cities and having access to fresh water are two concepts that rarely coexisted at that time.

TE: So no person who drinks moderately, say has a glass of red win with supper, will be saved? (i.e. go to heaven)

MM: The Bible forbids drinking wine. Not once in the Bible did God wink at drinking wine or strong drink. A Christian who insists that God condons moderate drinking is self-deceived. Will they be rewarded with eternal life when Jesus returns?

1 Corinthians
6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

…………………..

By the way, Tom, correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you approve of drinking wine moderately.

………………….

TE: Martin Luther died a beer drinker. Will he be in heaven?

MM: William Miller rejected the Sabbath, and God placed him in an early grave to prevent him from influencing others against the Sabbath. Will he be in heaven?

My point is, exceptions to the rule are not the rule. Luther’s ticket to heaven, in spite of his beer drinking, is not an argument in favor of drinking beer. Nor is it proof that conversions in 2006 happen in spite of drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes.

TE: So no person who drinks moderately, say has a glass of red win with supper, will be saved? (i.e. go to heaven)

MM: The Bible forbids drinking wine. Not once in the Bible did God wink at drinking wine or strong drink. A Christian who insists that God condons moderate drinking is self-deceived. Will they be rewarded with eternal life when Jesus returns?

So you believe that no person who drinks a glass of wine with their supper will be saved? Correct? This is what you seem to be saying. I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

How about those who take wine as a sacrament? Are they all lost as well?

1 Corinthians
6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

…………………..

By the way, Tom, correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you approve of drinking wine moderately.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? I also mentioned smoking. Do you think I approve of that as well?

………………….

TE: Martin Luther died a beer drinker. Will he be in heaven?

MM: William Miller rejected the Sabbath, and God placed him in an early grave to prevent him from influencing others against the Sabbath. Will he be in heaven?

My point is, exceptions to the rule are not the rule. Luther’s ticket to heaven, in spite of his beer drinking, is not an argument in favor of drinking beer. Nor is it proof that conversions in 2006 happen in spite of drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes.

I'm not arguing in favor of drinking beer or smoking cigarettes. I am arguing against your ideas. I am using these examples to demonstrate that your statement was wrong. You yourself are arguing against your own statement, because the moment you allow exceptions to the rule, such as smoking and drinking, you are recognizing that your statement is false.

Here's why your statement is wrong. You stated that before a person can be converted, the Holy Spirit most reveal every sinful habit, and they must all be confessed. This is without exception. The moment you provide exceptions, you demonstrate that your statement is wrong. You, like all the rest of us, believe that the Holy Spirit reveals *some* sinful habits, and doesn't reveal others (they are winked at, to use your language).

But for some reason you seem unwilling to recognize that what you originally said was wrong.

By the way, the year 2006 is irrelevant. If the Holy Spirit must reveal all sinful habits before a person can be converted in 2006, then He must do so in every other year as well. The principles of conversion have not changed.

I read that anicent near eastern language sceince suggests that "strong drink" might be refering to beer rather than wine. Futhermore, I would like to point out that the bible stating that drunkards wont be inside of heaven doesnt nessessarily mean that all drinking of alcoholic beverage is forbiden since it obviously only is an excessive drinking of alcohol over an extended period of time that a drunkard make.

TE: So you believe that no person who drinks a glass of wine with their supper will be saved? Correct? This is what you seem to be saying. I want to make sure I understand you correctly. How about those who take wine as a sacrament? Are they all lost as well?

MM: God forbids wine drinking. He does not condone moderate wine drinking. Jesus refused to allow something fermented to touch His lips, even when it would have helped to deaden the pain of crucifixion. For someone who believes Jesus is our example in all things, I am surprised you are defending drinking wine. People in well-informed nations like America who insist moderate wine drinking is acceptable with God are self-deceived. Whether they will be lost or saved is up to God. He is the judge, not you or me.

………………………

What do the following passages teach us about wine drinking?

1 Corinthians
6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

………………………

MM: By the way, Tom, correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you approve of drinking wine moderately.

TE: How did you arrive at this conclusion? I also mentioned smoking. Do you think I approve of that as well?

MM: You didn’t answer my question. Besides, it wasn’t a conclusion. It is a question. Also, in light of what Thomas just posted (82847), do you agree with him?

……………………….

TE: You, like all the rest of us, believe that the Holy Spirit reveals *some* sinful habits, and doesn't reveal others (they are winked at, to use your language).

MM: Let’s look at from this perspective. Jesus said, in no uncertain terms, that baptism is a requisite rite to inherit eternal life. And yet He told the thief on the cross that he would be in heaven. In the same way, no one can experience rebirth without first accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour. And yet unknown numbers of “Gentiles” who never named the name of Jesus will be in heaven. How can God say one thing and do another?

…………………………..

TE: By the way, the year 2006 is irrelevant. If the Holy Spirit must reveal all sinful habits before a person can be converted in 2006, then He must do so in every other year as well. The principles of conversion have not changed.

MM: I believe why certain people will be in heaven depends on different factors. I mentioned certain extenuating circumstances above. Another one relates to the loud cry of the latter rain. There will come a time when extenuating circumstances will not allow anyone to enter heaven. The reason I mentioned 2006 is because there are certain extenuating circumstances that no longer apply to people living in well-informed nations like America, i.e., smoking and drinking.

Being in the habbit of geting drunk is bad for your salvation is what we learn from this text. Not sure what precisely it teaches about the drinking of wine... Unless you are trying to say that it is wrong to get drunk on wine while beer or spirits is quite ok.

Thomas, are you of the opinion that God condones moderate wine drinking? that it's okay so long as one doesn't get drunk?

I am of the oppinion that the texts provided so far would support such a conclusion, yes.

Okay, thank you for being honest about it. More and more SDAs are coming to the same conclusion.

It is possible that there is aditional information to be had which would change this view. Are you aware of such aditional verses?

Thomas, here is a very good Bible study on alcohol:

Intoxicating Drinks

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging:
And whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
"Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions?
who hath babbling? who hath wounds
without cause?
Who hath redness of eyes?
They that tarry long at the wine;
They that go to seek mixed wine.
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red,
When it giveth his color in the cup,
When it moveth itself aright.
At the last it biteth like a serpent,
And stingeth like an adder."
Proverbs 20:1; 23:29-32.


Never was traced by human hand a more vivid picture of the debasement and the slavery of the victim of intoxicating drink. Enthralled, degraded, even when awakened to a sense of his misery, he has no power to break from the snare; he "will seek it yet again." Verse 35. {MH 330.2}

No argument is needed to show the evil effects of intoxicants on the drunkard. The bleared, besotted wrecks of humanity--souls for whom Christ died, and over whom angels weep--are everywhere. They are a blot on our boasted civilization. They are the shame and curse and peril of every land. {MH 331.1}

And who can picture the wretchedness, the agony, the despair, that are hidden in the drunkard's home? Think of the wife, often delicately reared, sensitive, cultured, and refined, linked to one whom drink transforms into a sot or a demon. Think of the children, robbed of home comforts, education, and training, living in terror of him who should be their pride and protection, thrust into the world, bearing the brand of shame, often with the hereditary curse of the drunkard's thirst. {MH 331.2}

Think of the frightful accidents that are every day occurring through the influence of drink. Some official on a railway train neglects to heed a signal or misinterprets an order. On goes the train; there is a collision, and many lives are lost. Or a steamer is run aground, and passengers and crew find a watery grave. When the matter is investigated, it is found that someone at an important post was under the influence of drink. To what extent can one indulge the liquor habit and be safely trusted with the lives of human beings? He can be trusted only as he totally abstains. {MH 331.3}

The Milder Intoxicants

Persons who have inherited an appetite for unnatural stimulants should by no means have wine, beer, or cider in their sight, or within their reach; for this keeps the temptation constantly before them. Regarding sweet cider as harmless, many have no scruples in purchasing it freely. But it remains sweet for a short time only; then fermentation begins. The sharp taste which it then acquires makes it all the more acceptable to many palates, and the user is loath to admit that it has become hard, or fermented. {MH 331.4}

There is danger to health in the use of even sweet cider as ordinarily produced. If people could see what the microscope reveals in regard to the cider they buy, few would be willing to drink it. Often those who manufacture cider for the market are not careful as to the condition of the fruit used, and the juice of wormy and decayed apples is expressed. Those who would not think of using the poisonous, rotten apples in any other way, will drink the cider made from them, and call it a luxury; but the microscope shows that even when fresh from the press, this pleasant beverage is wholly unfit for use. [WHEN THIS STATEMENT WAS MADE IN 1905, IT WAS COMMON PRACTICE TO MANUFACTURE CIDER AS HERE DESCRIBED BY THE AUTHOR. TODAY, IN PLACES WHERE THE PURITY OF FOODS IS NOT CONTROLLED, APPLE CIDER MAY STILL BE MADE THE SAME WAY. BUT WHERE CIDER IS PRODUCED UNDER SANITARY CONDITIONS, USING GOOD, SOUND FRUIT, OBVIOUSLY THE OBJECTIONS DISAPPEAR.--PUBLISHERS.] {MH 332.1}

Intoxication is just as really produced by wine, beer, and cider as by stronger drinks. The use of these drinks awakens the taste for those that are stronger, and thus the liquor habit is established. Moderate drinking is the school in which men are educated for the drunkard's career. Yet so insidious is the work of these milder stimulants that the highway to drunkenness is entered before the victim suspects his danger. {MH 332.2}

Some who are never considered really drunk are always under the influence of mild intoxicants. They are feverish, unstable in mind, unbalanced. Imagining themselves secure, they go on and on, until every barrier is broken down, every principle sacrificed. The strongest resolutions are undermined, the highest considerations are not sufficient to keep the debased appetite under the control of reason. {MH 332.3}

The Bible nowhere sanctions the use of intoxicating wine. The wine that Christ made from water at the marriage feast of Cana was the pure juice of the grape. This is the "new wine . . . found in the cluster," of which the Scripture says, "Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it." Isaiah 65:8. {MH 333.1}

It was Christ who, in the Old Testament, gave the warning to Israel, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1. He Himself provided no such beverage. Satan tempts men to indulgence that will becloud reason and benumb the spiritual perceptions, but Christ teaches us to bring the lower nature into subjection. He never places before men that which would be a temptation. His whole life was an example of self-denial. It was to break the power of appetite that in the forty days' fast in the wilderness He suffered in our behalf the severest test that humanity could endure. It was Christ who directed that John the Baptist should drink neither wine nor strong drink. It was He who enjoined similar abstinence upon the wife of Manoah. Christ did not contradict His own teaching. The unfermented wine that He provided for the wedding guests was a wholesome and refreshing drink. This is the wine that was used by our Saviour and His disciples in the first Communion. It is the wine that should always be used on the Communion table as a symbol of the Saviour's blood. The sacramental service is designed to be soul-refreshing and life-giving. There is to be connected with it nothing that could minister to evil. {MH 333.2}

In the light of what the Scriptures, nature, and reason teach concerning the use of intoxicants, how can Christians engage in the raising of hops for beer making, or in the manufacture of wine or cider for the market? If they love their neighbor as themselves, how can they help to place in his way that which will be a snare to him? {MH 333.3}

Often intemperance begins in the home. By the use of rich, unhealthful food the digestive organs are weakened, and a desire is created for food that is still more stimulating. Thus the appetite is educated to crave continually something stronger. The demand for stimulants becomes more frequent and more difficult to resist. The system becomes more or less filled with poison, and the more debilitated it becomes, the greater is the desire for these things. One step in the wrong direction prepares the way for another. Many who would not be guilty of placing on their table wine or liquor of any kind will load their table with food which creates such a thirst for strong drink that to resist the temptation is almost impossible. Wrong habits of eating and drinking destroy the health and prepare the way for drunkenness. {MH 334.1}

There would soon be little necessity for temperance crusades if in the youth who form and fashion society, right principles in regard to temperance could be implanted. Let parents begin a crusade against intemperance at their own firesides, in the principles they teach their children to follow from infancy, and they may hope for success. {MH 334.2}

There is work for mothers in helping their children to form correct habits and pure tastes. Educate the appetite; teach the children to abhor stimulants. Bring your children up to have moral stamina to resist the evil that surrounds them. Teach them that they are not to be swayed by others, that they are not to yield to strong influences, but to influence others for good. {MH 334.3}

Great efforts are made to put down intemperance; but there is much effort that is not directed to the right point. The advocates of temperance reform should be awake to the evils resulting from the use of unwholesome food, condiments, tea, and coffee. We bid all temperance workers Godspeed; but we invite them to look more deeply into the cause of the evil they war against and to be sure that they are consistent in reform. {MH 334.4}

It must be kept before the people that the right balance of the mental and moral powers depends in a great degree on the right condition of the physical system. All narcotics and unnatural stimulants that enfeeble and degrade the physical nature tend to lower the tone of the intellect and morals. Intemperance lies at the foundation of the moral depravity of the world. By the indulgence of perverted appetite, man loses his power to resist temptation. {MH 335.1}

Temperance reformers have a work to do in educating the people in these lines. Teach them that health, character, and even life, are endangered by the use of stimulants, which excite the exhausted energies to unnatural, spasmodic action. {MH 335.2}

In relation to tea, coffee, tobacco, and alcoholic drinks, the only safe course is to touch not, taste not, handle not. The tendency of tea, coffee, and similar drinks is in the same direction as that of alcoholic liquor and tobacco, and in some cases the habit is as difficult to break as it is for the drunkard to give up intoxicants. Those who attempt to leave off these stimulants will for a time feel a loss and will suffer without them. But by persistence they will overcome the craving and cease to feel the lack. Nature may require a little time to recover from the abuse she has suffered; but give her a chance, and she will again rally and perform her work nobly and well. {MH 335.3}

By the way, the question regarding wine drinking is - Can Jesus justify clothing people with His robe of righteousness who choose to drink alcohol in well-informed nations like America?

The bible study part was rather short, surely the bible has more to say about this than the two passages on drunkards and this passage from proverbs. It would be a proof towards your openmindedness Mike, if you also posted some of the verses that speak against your own point of view.

Since this thread is devoted to justification by faith, we should start a new thread on alcohol. By the way, there are no Bible verses that condone moderate drinking.

Hmm, notices that a legaly ordered drink offering is 1.5 liters or 1.2 quarts of wine. exo 29:40

Aron and his sons in the priestly line where specifically forbiden to drink wine, which would be an funny thing to do if wine was generally out of bounds.

Then we have this, God commands that:
Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Wine and strong drink, and at a tithe feast before the Lords face eh?

Do you have any idea what percentage of Christians see anything wrong at all in moderately drinking alcohol? You speak of a "well-informed nation" like America, as if that implied America is informed that there is something wrong with drinking Alcohol. Very few Americans believe this. A vast majority would agree that drinking heavily is bad, of course, but a very large percentage see nothing wrong with drinking moderately.

Even within SDAism, the point is argued as to the meaning of Scripture regarding drinking, let alone outside SDA. If you look on the web, and try to find denominations besides SDA which argue that Scriptures speak against moderate drinking, you won't find many.

Now this is not meant to argue that what SDA's teach about drinking is incorrect, as most denominations do not believe the Bible teaches others docrines we hold too either, such as the state of the dead and the Sabbath. However, it does show that the consciences of many Christians would be clear in regards to moderate drinking, so why wouldn't Jesus "justify clothing His people with His robe of righteousness" in a "well informed" country like America?

MM, you didn't answer my question. Here it is again:



It appears to me that you are trying to change the subject, so that you won't have to admit you were wrong regarding your statement that God must reveal every sinful habit to a person before they can be converted (i.e. born again). Here's what's happening.

a.You wrote that before anyone can be converted (i.e. born again), God must reveal every sinful habit to them.
b.I asked you if drinking and smoking are sinful habits. (I was not defending smoking or drinking, but trying to find an example you would agree with. I've previously used polyamy and fornication, without defending these things either.)
c.You said they were.
d.I asked if someone could be saved while drinking or smoking.
e.At first you said yes, that God may wink at such things.
f.I pointed out that you were contradicting your original statement.
g.You accused me of trying to make it look like you and I were agreeing on this, and asked me to quit. This was a rediculous accusation, which may have been motivated by a desire to not admit you were wrong, by changing the subject.
h.I pointed out this is a pointless accusation, and returned to my argument.
i.Now you are again changing the subject by accusing me of defending drinking.

You sort of indirectly answered the question by reasserting that God forbids drinking wine. So given that God forbids drinking wine, do you believe that any Catholics who go to mass will be saved?

Please answer my question, and do not go off on some diversion like I'm defending Catholicism (or wine drinking or smoking or anything else).

TE: It appears to me that you are trying to change the subject, so that you won't have to admit you were wrong regarding your statement that God must reveal every sinful habit to a person before they can be converted (i.e. born again). So given that God forbids drinking wine, do you believe that any Catholics who go to mass will be saved?

MM: If you are arguing that God does not forbid drinking alcohol moderately, or partaking of it during the Eucharist, then, no, God would not consider it a sinful habit. It sounds like we both agree that no one can experience the miracle of rebirth while abusing alcohol. Do you consider drinking alcohol moderately a sinful habit that must eventually be given up?

It is not even clear that the bible considers low-moderate use of alcohol a sinful habit that must eventually be given up. But by all means, add hedge laws to scripture to make sertain no of the real laws get close to being violated. This as we know is a time-tested method of ensuring a clear concience based on kepping the letter of the law.

TE: It appears to me that you are trying to change the subject, so that you won't have to admit you were wrong regarding your statement that God must reveal every sinful habit to a person before they can be converted (i.e. born again). So given that God forbids drinking wine, do you believe that any Catholics who go to mass will be saved?

MM: If you are arguing that God does not forbid drinking alcohol moderately, or partaking of it during the Eucharist, then, no, God would not consider it a sinful habit.

It sounds like we both agree that no one can experience the miracle of rebirth while abusing alcohol. Do you consider drinking alcohol moderately a sinful habit that must eventually be given up?

I'm arguing the same thing I have been, which is that you were wrong to say that God must reveal every sinful habit to a person, and these sinful habits must be confessed, before they can be converted. You started to correct your error when you spoke of God's winking at these sinful habits. You seem to have backed off that, I'm not sure.

To make it clear to you, here's your error:

a.You stated that no one can be converted unless God reveals every sinful habit to them that they've cultivated since birth, and these habits must be confessed.

b.I asked if smoking and drinking were sinful habits.

c.You said they were.

d.So I'm asking if anyone who drinks can be saved. I'm talking about drinking moderately, not someone who is addicted.

e.You stated that God winks at these sinful habits.

f.When I stated that you were agreeing with me (in principle; our difference would only be in degree), you took offence, insisting that you don't agree, and apparently backing off from your previous winking statement.

It appears to me that you are going back to your original position, which is that God must reveal every sinful habit that one has cultivated since birth in order to be converted. If this is the case, I disagree with this, and suspect that every person on this forum also disagrees with this. I am not aware of any SDA, or even any Christian (or anyone period) who would agree with this.

You are also disagreeing with your previous statement regarding God's winking at some sinful habits. Either God winks at some sinful habits, or He doesn't. You can't have it both ways. Which way is it? Does He wink? If He does, what are the circumstances under which He winks?

TE: You, like all the rest of us, believe that the Holy Spirit reveals *some* sinful habits, and doesn't reveal others (they are winked at, to use your language).

MM: Let’s look at it from this perspective.

Jesus said, in no uncertain terms, that baptism is a requisite rite to inherit eternal life. And yet He told the thief on the cross that he would be in heaven.

In the same way, no one can experience rebirth without first accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour. And yet unknown numbers of “Gentiles” who never named the name of Jesus will be in heaven.

Did God go back on His word?

You're not addressing the issue.

What you stated before is that in order for one to be converted (i.e. born again), it is necessary for God to reveal every sinful habit cultivated from birth, and confess them all. As I pointed out to you, this is not true. I gave smoking and drinking as examples, pointing out that not everyone gives up these habits, even though they are converted. You apparently agreed, because you spoke of God's winking.

So your original statement was wrong. You believe, as do the rest of us, that sometimes God winks. However, you won't acknowledge that your statement was wrong. I don't know why. Clearly the idea that God must reveal every sinful habit before one can be born again is false. If this were true, it would mean that God would never reveal a sinful habit to anyone after they were converted, since they would have all been already revealed before conversion.

TE: What you stated before is that in order for one to be converted (i.e. born again), it is necessary for God to reveal every sinful habit cultivated from birth, and confess them all.

MM: Which is the rule.

TE: As I pointed out to you, this is not true. I gave smoking and drinking as examples, pointing out that not everyone gives up these habits, even though they are converted. You apparently agreed, because you spoke of God's winking.

MM: Which are exceptions to the rule. Such people are not converted or born again in the full Bible sense of the word.

TE: So your original statement was wrong. You believe, as do the rest of us, that sometimes God winks. However, you won't acknowledge that your statement was wrong. I don't know why.

MM: I was referring to the rule, not the exceptions. I don’t know what you believe about exceptions to the rule.

TE: Clearly the idea that God must reveal every sinful habit before one can be born again is false. If this were true, it would mean that God would never reveal a sinful habit to anyone after they were converted, since they would have all been already revealed before conversion.

MM: It depends on if God is making an exception to the rule or not.

…………………………

MM: Let’s look at it from this perspective. Jesus said, in no uncertain terms, that baptism is a requisite rite to inherit eternal life. And yet He told the thief on the cross that he would be in heaven. Is this an exception to the rule? Or, is it the rule?

In the same way, no one can experience rebirth without first accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour. And yet unknown numbers of “Gentiles” who never named the name of Jesus will be in heaven. Is this an exception to the rule? Or, is it the rule?

TE: You're not addressing the issue.

MM: The “issue” is exceptions to the rule, right? You believe some people will go to heaven in spite of the fact they continue to cultivate certain sinful habits which God chooses not to reveal to them. And I agree. But I believe such cases are exceptions to the rule. I’m not sure what you believe. You seem to think there are no exceptions to the rule, that exceptions are the rule.

Can we build an argument around exceptions to the rule? In other words, can we forego baptism because the thief wasn’t baptized? Can we forego accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour because unknown numbers of Gentiles didn’t? What is the rule regarding rebirth? And what are the exceptions?

TE: What you stated before is that in order for one to be converted (i.e. born again), it is necessary for God to reveal every sinful habit cultivated from birth, and confess them all.

MM: Which is the rule.

What you wrote before was wrong. It didn't speak of "rules" or "exceptions." You simply stated that before a person could be converted, God had to reveal every sinful habit cultivated since birth, which had to be confessed. This statement was wrong.

Let's recognize that the statement was wrong, and then we can discuss to what degree.

TE: As I pointed out to you, this is not true. I gave smoking and drinking as examples, pointing out that not everyone gives up these habits, even though they are converted. You apparently agreed, because you spoke of God's winking.

MM: Which are exceptions to the rule. Such people are not converted or born again in the full Bible sense of the word.

How can someone be born again in any other sense than the full Bible sense of the word? What did you have in mind when you wrote that before a person could be born again without every sinful habit being revealed? Did you have some sense of "born again" in mind other than what the Bible means? If so, what?

TE: So your original statement was wrong. You believe, as do the rest of us, that sometimes God winks. However, you won't acknowledge that your statement was wrong. I don't know why.

MM: I was referring to the rule, not the exceptions. I don’t know what you believe about exceptions to the rule.

The statement was wrong. It said nothing about rules. It just a simple wrong statement that before a person can be converted (or born again) without the Holy Spirit revealing every sinful habit cultivated since birth. If there are exceptions, the statement is worng. It's just a question of how wrong.

TE: Clearly the idea that God must reveal every sinful habit before one can be born again is false. If this were true, it would mean that God would never reveal a sinful habit to anyone after they were converted, since they would have all been already revealed before conversion.

MM: It depends on if God is making an exception to the rule or not.

You're beginning to sound like Darius.
…………………………

MM: Let’s look at it from this perspective. Jesus said, in no uncertain terms, that baptism is a requisite rite to inherit eternal life. And yet He told the thief on the cross that he would be in heaven. Is this an exception to the rule? Or, is it the rule?

In the same way, no one can experience rebirth without first accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour. And yet unknown numbers of “Gentiles” who never named the name of Jesus will be in heaven. Is this an exception to the rule? Or, is it the rule?

TE: You're not addressing the issue.

MM: The “issue” is exceptions to the rule, right?

No, the issue is you're making incorrect statements, but being unwilling, or unable (I'm not sure which) to recognize when you err.

You believe some people will go to heaven in spite of the fact they continue to cultivate certain sinful habits which God chooses not to reveal to them. And I agree. But I believe such cases are exceptions to the rule. I’m not sure what you believe. You seem to think there are no exceptions to the rule, that exceptions are the rule.

Can we build an argument around exceptions to the rule? In other words, can we forego baptism because the thief wasn’t baptized? Can we forego accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour because unknown numbers of Gentiles didn’t? What is the rule regarding rebirth? And what are the exceptions?

Sure, we can discuss that.

Now, now Tom, inconsistency never was one of Darius faults. No need to mix him and Mike like this...

Lol.

MM: You believe some people will go to heaven in spite of the fact they continue to cultivate certain sinful habits which God chooses not to reveal to them. And I agree. But I believe such cases are exceptions to the rule. I’m not sure what you believe. You seem to think there are no exceptions to the rule, that exceptions are the rule.

Can we build an argument around exceptions to the rule? In other words, can we forego baptism because the thief wasn’t baptized? Can we forego accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour because unknown numbers of Gentiles didn’t? What is the rule regarding rebirth? And what are the exceptions?

TE: Sure, we can discuss that.

MM: Okay.

MM, do you understand that your statement that before anyone can be converted, it is necessary for God to reveal every sinful habit cultivated since birth is incorrect?

Yes, it is incorrect to say "nobody" has experienced the miracle of rebirth without first having confessed and forsaken every sinlge one of their cultivated sinful habits and practices. God has, from time to time, made exceptions to the rule.

What are the exceptions? I think you agreed that smoking or drinking may be exceptions. Is that correct? Polygamy as well? (e.g. in the case of David, I think you said this when discussing this with Rosangela).

“Justification by faith” – think about it this way.

faith = seeing through God’s eyes; seeing as God sees.

Justification by faith = seeing as God sees and agreeing with God’s view, judgment.

Righteousness by faith = the righteousness that comes from seeing as God sees.

So what is the prerequisite?

I like your definitions John. Repentance (a change of mind) is an obvious prerequisite, since by nature our way of looking at things is different than God's.

Tom, yes, the things you listed have been overlooked by God as exceptions to the rule.

John, justification by faith, from what I've read, deals with God pardoning past sins which have been confessed and forsaken. It also covers sins of ignorance. It places sinners in a position where they can begin experiencing sanctification by faith, that is, grow in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. Thus, it is sanctification, not justification, that empowers us to think and behave like Jesus.

7BC 908
Justification means the saving of a soul from perdition, that he may obtain sanctification, and through sanctification, the life of heaven. Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification (MS 113, 1902). {7BC 908.15}

I don't know why or how I should ever stop justifying myself, and let God justify me, so that my conscience be purged from dead works (self-justification) to serve the living God, except that I have seen through his eyes and have agreed with him.



Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

John, we cannot pardon our past sins. Only God has the legal right to pardon us. Justifying ourselves has no legal standing in heaven, and serves no practical purpose on earth. Nor can we cleanse ourselves from all our unrighteousnesses.

Justification by works doesn't work. It cannot set us free. Only the truth as it is in Jesus can set us free. If we confess our sinful habits and practices, if we believe God pardons us, then, and only then, are we justified, that is, counted as though we have never sinned.

Justification by faith wipes our slate clean. We start off on new footing. We are sinless. We can obey Jesus' command to - "Go, and sin no more." As you know, only sinless people can go and sin no more. It is sanctification by faith that enables us to grow in grace and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

This is dealing with justification by faith. Notice it starts out, "How, then, are we to be saved?" Everything about this quote is agreeing with what John has been posting. You can see that the Holy Spirit, by means of the revelation of God and His love through the cross, leads one to see things in a new and different way. This transformation is represented as a new birth. The believer receives a new heart.

Paul talks about this when he says if anyone be in Christ, he is a new creature (or new creation), old things are passed away; all things are become new.

The new birth, which is justification, is all about transformation. One cannot be born again, or justified by faith, without being transformed.

MM, you seem to have a controversy with what I have written. I wonder why! Tom understands it. What about what I have written troubles you?

John, we cannot pardon our past sins.

But every sinner by nature and of neccessity does continually pursue such a course.

Only God has the legal right to pardon us.

“Legal” never satisfies anybody’s “conscience”.

Justifying ourselves has no legal standing in heaven, and serves no practical purpose on earth. Nor can we cleanse ourselves from all our unrighteousness.

I do not dispute.

Justification by works doesn't work. It cannot set us free.

I agree

Only the truth as it is in Jesus can set us free.

Indeed! How does it get from Jesus to “my conscience”?

If we confess our sinful habits and practices, if we believe God pardons us, then, and only then, are we justified, that is: counted as though we have never sinned.

Sounds to me like a man-made formula of make-belief. You seem to propose a religious belief system, in the place of genuine faith which looks through God’s eyes. Also, to be pardoned is far from being “justified”.

Justification by faith wipes our slate clean.

I don’t have a slate; I have a conscience? Problem is in the “conscience”. It is our conscience that needs to be cleansed from dead works to serve the living God .

We start off on new footing. We are sinless.

That’s nice! Who said?

We can obey Jesus' command to - "Go, and sin no more."

No clue how you ever heard him say it!

As you know, only sinless people can go and sin no more. It is sanctification by faith that enables us to grow in grace and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

How did that happen?

Theological jargon does not satisfy, let's talk practical reality.

Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

John, great comment about the slate and the conscience!

Tom, the following definitions teach us that justification prepares sinners to receive the blessings of sanctification, that it purges them from dead works so that they can begin growing in grace and maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. You seem to be saying it's the other way around. Did I misunderstand you?

7BC 908
Justification means the saving of a soul from perdition, that he may obtain sanctification, and through sanctification, the life of heaven. Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification (MS 113, 1902). {7BC 908.15}

MM, you seem to have a controversy with what I have written. I wonder why! Tom understands it. What about what I have written troubles you?

MM: See following responses.

……………………..

John, we cannot pardon our past sins.

But every sinner by nature and of neccessity does continually pursue such a course.

MM: Okay.

……………………

Only God has the legal right to pardon us.

“Legal” never satisfies anybody’s “conscience”.

MM: Okay. But the statement is true.

………………………

Justifying ourselves has no legal standing in heaven, and serves no practical purpose on earth. Nor can we cleanse ourselves from all our unrighteousness.

I do not dispute.

MM: Okay.

………………………..

Justification by works doesn't work. It cannot set us free.

I agree

MM: Okay.

………………………

Only the truth as it is in Jesus can set us free.

Indeed! How does it get from Jesus to “my conscience”?

MM: The Holy spirit.

……………………….

If we confess our sinful habits and practices, if we believe God pardons us, then, and only then, are we justified, that is: counted as though we have never sinned.

Sounds to me like a man-made formula of make-belief. You seem to propose a religious belief system, in the place of genuine faith which looks through God’s eyes. Also, to be pardoned is far from being “justified”.

MM: God cannot justify pardoning us if we do not confess and forsake our sinful habits and practices.

……………………….

Justification by faith wipes our slate clean.

I don’t have a slate; I have a conscience? Problem is in the “conscience”. It is our conscience that needs to be cleansed from dead works to serve the living God .

MM: Okay.

……………………..

We start off on new footing. We are sinless.

That’s nice! Who said?

MM: God.

…………………..

We can obey Jesus' command to - "Go, and sin no more."

No clue how you ever heard him say it!

MM: The Bible.

……………………

As you know, only sinless people can go and sin no more. It is sanctification by faith that enables us to grow in grace and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

How did that happen? Theological jargon does not satisfy, let's talk practical reality. Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

MM: “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Ps. 119:11) “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.” (1 Jn. 2:1) “Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” (Gal. 5:16) “For he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.” (1 Pet. 4:1, 2) “

1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Tom, the following definitions teach us that justification prepares sinners to receive the blessings of sanctification, that it purges them from dead works so that they can begin growing in grace and maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. You seem to be saying it's the other way around. Did I misunderstand you?

Yes. I've never stated or implied that sanctification comes before justification. Actually I presented a quote from "The Desire of Ages". You don't see this as presenting sanctification coming before justification, do you? Or do you think the DA quote is dealing with sanctification, and that's where the misunderstanding is coming from?

MM, you seem to have a controversy with what I have written. I wonder why! What about what I have written troubles you?


Your responses did not shed any light nor tell of your contention. What about what I have said above bothers you?

All that you have said so far does not reveal the means of cleansing my conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Tom, I thought I would post this here also.

That would miss the point. You see, wiping the slate has an inanimate aspect. The slate is no better before or after; it can only be used by others for their purposes.

If God were to wipe my conscience, I would be an imbecile. The cleansing of the conscience is unlike the wiping of a slate.The wiping of the slate is a legal concept. When one speaks of it, one only speaks of guilt; trying to wipe away the guilt. The conscience is a relentless judge, judging according to what we know to be right. So it judges against the wiping away of guilt as long as the righteousness by which it judges is held. It is sad to see the legalistic beliefs which cannot cleanse the comers thereto.

In Christ we have the living way. The cleansing of the conscience is a work of enlightenment; dispelling the darkness. It is the changing from glory to glory. It is the acceptance of his thoughts towards us, that sets us free to contemplate something greater.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

My thinking regarding the cleansing of the slate had to do with the removal of the guilt of sin. How can our consciences be cleansed from guilt, like a slate is wiped clean? (not the methodology, but the end result; that is, being cleansed).

In terms of the cleansing of the slate being a legal concept, I see this point. It's similar to how many view the concept of the books of heaven being wiped clean from sin. The reality is that the books of heaven reflect the reality of our lives. If we have been cleansed from sin, then the books of heaven will reflect that. But if our lives (which is to say our mind) is still contaminated by sin, a change in the books of heaven would do us not good.

Waggoner has a wonderful thought regarding this. I'll see if I can find it.

Found it! (thank you for waiting)



At any rate, in the cleansing of the slate analogy I certainly wasn't thinking in terms of it's being available for the use of another, nor in terms of tabula rasa, or an empty mind. Of course God doesn't want our minds to be empty, but cleansed, which is exactly what we need.