Betty,

Since vs. 40 says that these things take place at the "time of the end," that means that it has to take place after 1798, since that is when the time of the end began, a point that is non-negotiable. So anytime after 1798 could be said to be the "last days."

Bob, the passages where Ellen White makes a dual application speak for themselves. I've quoted the full passage on Revelation 10 under the new heading "Are the seven thunders still sealed?" Please have a look. Let's continue this issue over there.

Sister White's quote on placing the three angel's messages in the future referred to non-Adventists who claim that the three angel's messages don't apply today. I didn't give you any reason to think I believe that. And I didn't charge you with propagating darkness. I did say that you don't give her quotes the meaning she intended them to have. A while ago I was mislead in a way similar to your experience in the 1980's, but because of that I hope I don't put on blinders to new ideas.

We all believe that the latter rain is in the future. Clearly, when the latter rain is given it will be a time when the messages of all three angels will be repeated to the world with power.

I'm not certain myself that the 1260 days will also be repeated in literal time. That's a minor issue. It looks to me like they will, but whether they are or not at this point is not something that should divide us. The more important thing is to realize that Daniel and Revelation were written for the time of the end, 1798 when they began to be unsealed, but that they especially apply to the time of the latter rain. I believe that these prophecies that have lain dormant through the centuries will especially speak to us when the latter rain is given, and that they will be the primary means of guiding the church.

But like in the case of the Millerites, we should also bear in mind that some things may still be sealed. God loves us and He will not give us more information than we are capable of handling.

[This message has been edited by Mark Shipowick (edited October 17, 2001).]

Daryl, and the rest who've posted opinions on the passage, I gave a general outline of events starting with verse 29 above. I'll try to give more detail before long, but when I do, it will have to stay fairly broad. I think in general, we can't be too specific about anything that is in the future. In addition to the issue of whether the seven thunders are sealed or not, we have the statement of Christ that "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved." Matthew 24:22 This is in the context of Christ's admonition to understand the meaning of the abomination that desolates in Daniel Matt. 24:15. "Those days" appear to refer especially to the final 1260 day reign of the abomination of desolation that will be cut short. So there is no definite tracing of time, as Sister White says, and we shouldn't be too specific on the events either.

In the book of Daniel, chapter 11, verse 40 we read: "And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him (the king of the north); and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and she shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over."
Though the first part of this verse had a primary application at the time of the end in 1798 when General Berthier of France entered into Rome and took the Pope into captivity, I believe we are witnessing the beginning of the fulfillment of the second application in the ongoing war between the United States of America, the king of the north, and the Muslim terrorists, the king of the south, especially since the events of Sept.11 in New York!

In Old Testament times, Egypt stood as the king of the South. Egypt was a very religiously oriented kingdom. However, in the sight of Heaven, this kingdom was nothing but the representation of what atheism stood for! "Who is God that I should obey Him," said Pharaoh to Moses, the sent of God!

It is a very well known fact that Allah, the god of Islam, and his prophet, Mohammed, are portrayed by their followers to be superior to the Christian God and His prophets. However, in the sight of Heaven, the Islamic religion is just as atheistic as Egypt was. So it is in that sense the Muslim kingdom is spiritually Egypt, the king of the south which today is "pushing" at the king of the north, the United States of America, professing to be allied to Heaven!

If this interpretation is right, then we can expect the United States and its allies to win this war in a "whirlwind" fashion. This will prepare the way for the king of the north, the U.S. and its allies "to enter into the countries and pass over" in the hope of establishing a new world order. Once this goal is achieved, there will be a series of events which will lead the leaders of this new world government to give their kingdom to the beast of Rev.13, namely the papacy!

The events that will lead to this situation will first take place in the United States with the enactment of a national Sunday law following an amendment in the Constitution to allow the union of Church and State in order to bring the nation under the blessing of God! The allied countries will follow the example of the U.S. and it will not be long before the whole world worships the beast and its image!

Then there will be the loud cry: "Tidings from the east and out of the north shall trouble him."

Then this whole kingdom will be destroyed at the time of the sixth plague when the people of all nations will withdraw their support and burn her with fire! "He shall come to his end with none to help him." Dan.11:45; Rev.17:16.

P.S. Neither the king of the North nor the King of the South will be the winner after it is all said and done! Only those who honor God by being faithful to His every command and whose names are written in the Lamb book of life will be the winners in this struggle of the ages.

I think of the 1,260 days as a time prophecy which some of you seem to be making that into a dual application; one as 1,260 years which is now history, and the other as 1,260 literal days which some are saying is still future.

I thought that all time prophecies ended in 1844 at the end of the 2,300day/year prophecy?

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

I agree Darryl! There will never be a message to the people of God based on prophetic time! 1 S.M.188,189.

Personally I am comfortable with a dual application approach to the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets - minus the time elements. Rev 10:6 and 11 seems to indicate that these prophecies will be repeated sometime after 1844 excluding the times.

From what I understand about time, the very nature of its essence disallows dual application. And it doesn't make sense to me to prove that the time prophecies must be interpreted according to the day-for-a-year principle on the one hand, and then to say that it must be taken literally on the other hand. A time prophecy predicts something specific that will happen at a given point in time. Once it is fulfilled, that portion of the prophecy has completed its mission. Which is also how we can test its origin and authenticity.

But I have no problem understanding how one symbolic prophecy written long ago can encompass two different time periods. And from our point of view we can look back on the historical fulfillment and also look forward to a future final fulfillment. However, those who lived before the fulfillment of the historical application would be less inclined to embrace the idea of a future fulfillment yet to come after they are resting in their graves.

Dan 11:41-45 is clearly yet future. Can we expect another fulfillment after it is fulfilled? This particular prophecy seems to belong to a continuum that culminates with the close of probation. Which seems to discourage any ideas suggesting it has a dual application. Whereas, the 7 seals and 7 trumpets, as I read them, very easily can be interpreted as a dual application - without destroying the historical view.

Jean Miller said in one of her previous posts that "Ellen White herself says that all of Rev. 13 is future."

I am respecfully requesting Jean to provide me with the quote and reference where Ellen White precisely says that.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl Fawcett (edited October 20, 2001).]

Marvin Moore, current editor of Signs of the Times, wrote a book in the late 1990’s on the future application of the seven trumpets. His book represents the first significant new light on the prophecies within the denomination since the pioneers. To me, it was a breath of fresh air. Before I read his book I was convinced the trumpets were in the future, but it was reassuring to me that God allowed this to come to the attention of the church.

It’s been a few years since I read Moore‘s book, but as far as I can recall, he didn’t take a position on whether the time periods within the trumpets have any definite meaning. But the implications of his book are significant:

1) If the seven trumpets are in the future, then the seven seals are likely in the future too. The pioneers of Adventism linked the trumpets and the seals together and believed that they covered the same time periods - from the ascension of Christ until about 1844. I am confident that this view is the correct one. Uriah Smith, in his book Daniel and the Revelation makes a good case for the position that the same time period is covered by the seals and trumpets. If the trumpet and the seals were linked then, they will probably be linked in the future - for the same reasons.

2) There are time elements within the trumpets. These have precise fulfillments in the past. Some of you may remember that one Millerite preacher, Josiah Litch, used the time prophecy in the sixth trumpet (Revelation 9:15) to predict the demise of the Ottoman empire to the very day. And the event occurred just as he predicted it would. One fulfillment however does not mean that there can’t be another. The time periods could still be instructive to us, so they shouldn’t be ignored.

3) If the seals and trumpets are in the future, it will be instructive to look at the 1843 time chart to see how Miller and his associates put things together with Daniel.

Sister White tells us that the longest time period reaches to the autumn of 1844, and after that there is no definite tracing of time. The SDA Bible Commentary v. 7 p. 971 quotes her:

“The people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.”

I take her statement to mean that prophetic time lines will never be a test again. I think it would be a mistake and inconsistent with her other statements to conclude from the above that there will not be any prophetic time periods in the future that God will show us. The mark of the remnant church is the living prophetic gift.

I’ve suggested that the 1260 days may be repeated. But that isn’t my burden. I’d like to focus on the immediate need for the church to recognize that God has severe trails and tremendous victories in store for us in the near future. What are we doing to come into line with Him so that we will not be passed by when the latter rain is given corporately?

Daryl:

Here is Jean's quote that I have copied directly from the White estate web site:

"The Sabbath question will be the issue in the great conflict in which all the world will act a part. [Rev. 13:4-8, 10 quoted.] This entire chapter is a revelation of what will surely take place [Rev. 13:11, 15-17 quoted] (MS 88, 1897). " As quoted in the SDA Bible Commentary, v. 7, p. 979.10.