It is possible that there is aditional information to be had which would change this view. Are you aware of such aditional verses?

Thomas, here is a very good Bible study on alcohol:

Intoxicating Drinks

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging:
And whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
"Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions?
who hath babbling? who hath wounds
without cause?
Who hath redness of eyes?
They that tarry long at the wine;
They that go to seek mixed wine.
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red,
When it giveth his color in the cup,
When it moveth itself aright.
At the last it biteth like a serpent,
And stingeth like an adder."
Proverbs 20:1; 23:29-32.


Never was traced by human hand a more vivid picture of the debasement and the slavery of the victim of intoxicating drink. Enthralled, degraded, even when awakened to a sense of his misery, he has no power to break from the snare; he "will seek it yet again." Verse 35. {MH 330.2}

No argument is needed to show the evil effects of intoxicants on the drunkard. The bleared, besotted wrecks of humanity--souls for whom Christ died, and over whom angels weep--are everywhere. They are a blot on our boasted civilization. They are the shame and curse and peril of every land. {MH 331.1}

And who can picture the wretchedness, the agony, the despair, that are hidden in the drunkard's home? Think of the wife, often delicately reared, sensitive, cultured, and refined, linked to one whom drink transforms into a sot or a demon. Think of the children, robbed of home comforts, education, and training, living in terror of him who should be their pride and protection, thrust into the world, bearing the brand of shame, often with the hereditary curse of the drunkard's thirst. {MH 331.2}

Think of the frightful accidents that are every day occurring through the influence of drink. Some official on a railway train neglects to heed a signal or misinterprets an order. On goes the train; there is a collision, and many lives are lost. Or a steamer is run aground, and passengers and crew find a watery grave. When the matter is investigated, it is found that someone at an important post was under the influence of drink. To what extent can one indulge the liquor habit and be safely trusted with the lives of human beings? He can be trusted only as he totally abstains. {MH 331.3}

The Milder Intoxicants

Persons who have inherited an appetite for unnatural stimulants should by no means have wine, beer, or cider in their sight, or within their reach; for this keeps the temptation constantly before them. Regarding sweet cider as harmless, many have no scruples in purchasing it freely. But it remains sweet for a short time only; then fermentation begins. The sharp taste which it then acquires makes it all the more acceptable to many palates, and the user is loath to admit that it has become hard, or fermented. {MH 331.4}

There is danger to health in the use of even sweet cider as ordinarily produced. If people could see what the microscope reveals in regard to the cider they buy, few would be willing to drink it. Often those who manufacture cider for the market are not careful as to the condition of the fruit used, and the juice of wormy and decayed apples is expressed. Those who would not think of using the poisonous, rotten apples in any other way, will drink the cider made from them, and call it a luxury; but the microscope shows that even when fresh from the press, this pleasant beverage is wholly unfit for use. [WHEN THIS STATEMENT WAS MADE IN 1905, IT WAS COMMON PRACTICE TO MANUFACTURE CIDER AS HERE DESCRIBED BY THE AUTHOR. TODAY, IN PLACES WHERE THE PURITY OF FOODS IS NOT CONTROLLED, APPLE CIDER MAY STILL BE MADE THE SAME WAY. BUT WHERE CIDER IS PRODUCED UNDER SANITARY CONDITIONS, USING GOOD, SOUND FRUIT, OBVIOUSLY THE OBJECTIONS DISAPPEAR.--PUBLISHERS.] {MH 332.1}

Intoxication is just as really produced by wine, beer, and cider as by stronger drinks. The use of these drinks awakens the taste for those that are stronger, and thus the liquor habit is established. Moderate drinking is the school in which men are educated for the drunkard's career. Yet so insidious is the work of these milder stimulants that the highway to drunkenness is entered before the victim suspects his danger. {MH 332.2}

Some who are never considered really drunk are always under the influence of mild intoxicants. They are feverish, unstable in mind, unbalanced. Imagining themselves secure, they go on and on, until every barrier is broken down, every principle sacrificed. The strongest resolutions are undermined, the highest considerations are not sufficient to keep the debased appetite under the control of reason. {MH 332.3}

The Bible nowhere sanctions the use of intoxicating wine. The wine that Christ made from water at the marriage feast of Cana was the pure juice of the grape. This is the "new wine . . . found in the cluster," of which the Scripture says, "Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it." Isaiah 65:8. {MH 333.1}

It was Christ who, in the Old Testament, gave the warning to Israel, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1. He Himself provided no such beverage. Satan tempts men to indulgence that will becloud reason and benumb the spiritual perceptions, but Christ teaches us to bring the lower nature into subjection. He never places before men that which would be a temptation. His whole life was an example of self-denial. It was to break the power of appetite that in the forty days' fast in the wilderness He suffered in our behalf the severest test that humanity could endure. It was Christ who directed that John the Baptist should drink neither wine nor strong drink. It was He who enjoined similar abstinence upon the wife of Manoah. Christ did not contradict His own teaching. The unfermented wine that He provided for the wedding guests was a wholesome and refreshing drink. This is the wine that was used by our Saviour and His disciples in the first Communion. It is the wine that should always be used on the Communion table as a symbol of the Saviour's blood. The sacramental service is designed to be soul-refreshing and life-giving. There is to be connected with it nothing that could minister to evil. {MH 333.2}

In the light of what the Scriptures, nature, and reason teach concerning the use of intoxicants, how can Christians engage in the raising of hops for beer making, or in the manufacture of wine or cider for the market? If they love their neighbor as themselves, how can they help to place in his way that which will be a snare to him? {MH 333.3}

Often intemperance begins in the home. By the use of rich, unhealthful food the digestive organs are weakened, and a desire is created for food that is still more stimulating. Thus the appetite is educated to crave continually something stronger. The demand for stimulants becomes more frequent and more difficult to resist. The system becomes more or less filled with poison, and the more debilitated it becomes, the greater is the desire for these things. One step in the wrong direction prepares the way for another. Many who would not be guilty of placing on their table wine or liquor of any kind will load their table with food which creates such a thirst for strong drink that to resist the temptation is almost impossible. Wrong habits of eating and drinking destroy the health and prepare the way for drunkenness. {MH 334.1}

There would soon be little necessity for temperance crusades if in the youth who form and fashion society, right principles in regard to temperance could be implanted. Let parents begin a crusade against intemperance at their own firesides, in the principles they teach their children to follow from infancy, and they may hope for success. {MH 334.2}

There is work for mothers in helping their children to form correct habits and pure tastes. Educate the appetite; teach the children to abhor stimulants. Bring your children up to have moral stamina to resist the evil that surrounds them. Teach them that they are not to be swayed by others, that they are not to yield to strong influences, but to influence others for good. {MH 334.3}

Great efforts are made to put down intemperance; but there is much effort that is not directed to the right point. The advocates of temperance reform should be awake to the evils resulting from the use of unwholesome food, condiments, tea, and coffee. We bid all temperance workers Godspeed; but we invite them to look more deeply into the cause of the evil they war against and to be sure that they are consistent in reform. {MH 334.4}

It must be kept before the people that the right balance of the mental and moral powers depends in a great degree on the right condition of the physical system. All narcotics and unnatural stimulants that enfeeble and degrade the physical nature tend to lower the tone of the intellect and morals. Intemperance lies at the foundation of the moral depravity of the world. By the indulgence of perverted appetite, man loses his power to resist temptation. {MH 335.1}

Temperance reformers have a work to do in educating the people in these lines. Teach them that health, character, and even life, are endangered by the use of stimulants, which excite the exhausted energies to unnatural, spasmodic action. {MH 335.2}

In relation to tea, coffee, tobacco, and alcoholic drinks, the only safe course is to touch not, taste not, handle not. The tendency of tea, coffee, and similar drinks is in the same direction as that of alcoholic liquor and tobacco, and in some cases the habit is as difficult to break as it is for the drunkard to give up intoxicants. Those who attempt to leave off these stimulants will for a time feel a loss and will suffer without them. But by persistence they will overcome the craving and cease to feel the lack. Nature may require a little time to recover from the abuse she has suffered; but give her a chance, and she will again rally and perform her work nobly and well. {MH 335.3}

By the way, the question regarding wine drinking is - Can Jesus justify clothing people with His robe of righteousness who choose to drink alcohol in well-informed nations like America?

The bible study part was rather short, surely the bible has more to say about this than the two passages on drunkards and this passage from proverbs. It would be a proof towards your openmindedness Mike, if you also posted some of the verses that speak against your own point of view.

Since this thread is devoted to justification by faith, we should start a new thread on alcohol. By the way, there are no Bible verses that condone moderate drinking.

Hmm, notices that a legaly ordered drink offering is 1.5 liters or 1.2 quarts of wine. exo 29:40

Aron and his sons in the priestly line where specifically forbiden to drink wine, which would be an funny thing to do if wine was generally out of bounds.

Then we have this, God commands that:
Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Wine and strong drink, and at a tithe feast before the Lords face eh?

Do you have any idea what percentage of Christians see anything wrong at all in moderately drinking alcohol? You speak of a "well-informed nation" like America, as if that implied America is informed that there is something wrong with drinking Alcohol. Very few Americans believe this. A vast majority would agree that drinking heavily is bad, of course, but a very large percentage see nothing wrong with drinking moderately.

Even within SDAism, the point is argued as to the meaning of Scripture regarding drinking, let alone outside SDA. If you look on the web, and try to find denominations besides SDA which argue that Scriptures speak against moderate drinking, you won't find many.

Now this is not meant to argue that what SDA's teach about drinking is incorrect, as most denominations do not believe the Bible teaches others docrines we hold too either, such as the state of the dead and the Sabbath. However, it does show that the consciences of many Christians would be clear in regards to moderate drinking, so why wouldn't Jesus "justify clothing His people with His robe of righteousness" in a "well informed" country like America?

MM, you didn't answer my question. Here it is again:



It appears to me that you are trying to change the subject, so that you won't have to admit you were wrong regarding your statement that God must reveal every sinful habit to a person before they can be converted (i.e. born again). Here's what's happening.

a.You wrote that before anyone can be converted (i.e. born again), God must reveal every sinful habit to them.
b.I asked you if drinking and smoking are sinful habits. (I was not defending smoking or drinking, but trying to find an example you would agree with. I've previously used polyamy and fornication, without defending these things either.)
c.You said they were.
d.I asked if someone could be saved while drinking or smoking.
e.At first you said yes, that God may wink at such things.
f.I pointed out that you were contradicting your original statement.
g.You accused me of trying to make it look like you and I were agreeing on this, and asked me to quit. This was a rediculous accusation, which may have been motivated by a desire to not admit you were wrong, by changing the subject.
h.I pointed out this is a pointless accusation, and returned to my argument.
i.Now you are again changing the subject by accusing me of defending drinking.

You sort of indirectly answered the question by reasserting that God forbids drinking wine. So given that God forbids drinking wine, do you believe that any Catholics who go to mass will be saved?

Please answer my question, and do not go off on some diversion like I'm defending Catholicism (or wine drinking or smoking or anything else).

TE: It appears to me that you are trying to change the subject, so that you won't have to admit you were wrong regarding your statement that God must reveal every sinful habit to a person before they can be converted (i.e. born again). So given that God forbids drinking wine, do you believe that any Catholics who go to mass will be saved?

MM: If you are arguing that God does not forbid drinking alcohol moderately, or partaking of it during the Eucharist, then, no, God would not consider it a sinful habit. It sounds like we both agree that no one can experience the miracle of rebirth while abusing alcohol. Do you consider drinking alcohol moderately a sinful habit that must eventually be given up?

It is not even clear that the bible considers low-moderate use of alcohol a sinful habit that must eventually be given up. But by all means, add hedge laws to scripture to make sertain no of the real laws get close to being violated. This as we know is a time-tested method of ensuring a clear concience based on kepping the letter of the law.