TE: It appears to me that you are trying to change the subject, so that you won't have to admit you were wrong regarding your statement that God must reveal every sinful habit to a person before they can be converted (i.e. born again). So given that God forbids drinking wine, do you believe that any Catholics who go to mass will be saved?

MM: If you are arguing that God does not forbid drinking alcohol moderately, or partaking of it during the Eucharist, then, no, God would not consider it a sinful habit.

It sounds like we both agree that no one can experience the miracle of rebirth while abusing alcohol. Do you consider drinking alcohol moderately a sinful habit that must eventually be given up?

I'm arguing the same thing I have been, which is that you were wrong to say that God must reveal every sinful habit to a person, and these sinful habits must be confessed, before they can be converted. You started to correct your error when you spoke of God's winking at these sinful habits. You seem to have backed off that, I'm not sure.

To make it clear to you, here's your error:

a.You stated that no one can be converted unless God reveals every sinful habit to them that they've cultivated since birth, and these habits must be confessed.

b.I asked if smoking and drinking were sinful habits.

c.You said they were.

d.So I'm asking if anyone who drinks can be saved. I'm talking about drinking moderately, not someone who is addicted.

e.You stated that God winks at these sinful habits.

f.When I stated that you were agreeing with me (in principle; our difference would only be in degree), you took offence, insisting that you don't agree, and apparently backing off from your previous winking statement.

It appears to me that you are going back to your original position, which is that God must reveal every sinful habit that one has cultivated since birth in order to be converted. If this is the case, I disagree with this, and suspect that every person on this forum also disagrees with this. I am not aware of any SDA, or even any Christian (or anyone period) who would agree with this.

You are also disagreeing with your previous statement regarding God's winking at some sinful habits. Either God winks at some sinful habits, or He doesn't. You can't have it both ways. Which way is it? Does He wink? If He does, what are the circumstances under which He winks?

TE: You, like all the rest of us, believe that the Holy Spirit reveals *some* sinful habits, and doesn't reveal others (they are winked at, to use your language).

MM: Let’s look at it from this perspective.

Jesus said, in no uncertain terms, that baptism is a requisite rite to inherit eternal life. And yet He told the thief on the cross that he would be in heaven.

In the same way, no one can experience rebirth without first accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour. And yet unknown numbers of “Gentiles” who never named the name of Jesus will be in heaven.

Did God go back on His word?

You're not addressing the issue.

What you stated before is that in order for one to be converted (i.e. born again), it is necessary for God to reveal every sinful habit cultivated from birth, and confess them all. As I pointed out to you, this is not true. I gave smoking and drinking as examples, pointing out that not everyone gives up these habits, even though they are converted. You apparently agreed, because you spoke of God's winking.

So your original statement was wrong. You believe, as do the rest of us, that sometimes God winks. However, you won't acknowledge that your statement was wrong. I don't know why. Clearly the idea that God must reveal every sinful habit before one can be born again is false. If this were true, it would mean that God would never reveal a sinful habit to anyone after they were converted, since they would have all been already revealed before conversion.

TE: What you stated before is that in order for one to be converted (i.e. born again), it is necessary for God to reveal every sinful habit cultivated from birth, and confess them all.

MM: Which is the rule.

TE: As I pointed out to you, this is not true. I gave smoking and drinking as examples, pointing out that not everyone gives up these habits, even though they are converted. You apparently agreed, because you spoke of God's winking.

MM: Which are exceptions to the rule. Such people are not converted or born again in the full Bible sense of the word.

TE: So your original statement was wrong. You believe, as do the rest of us, that sometimes God winks. However, you won't acknowledge that your statement was wrong. I don't know why.

MM: I was referring to the rule, not the exceptions. I don’t know what you believe about exceptions to the rule.

TE: Clearly the idea that God must reveal every sinful habit before one can be born again is false. If this were true, it would mean that God would never reveal a sinful habit to anyone after they were converted, since they would have all been already revealed before conversion.

MM: It depends on if God is making an exception to the rule or not.

…………………………

MM: Let’s look at it from this perspective. Jesus said, in no uncertain terms, that baptism is a requisite rite to inherit eternal life. And yet He told the thief on the cross that he would be in heaven. Is this an exception to the rule? Or, is it the rule?

In the same way, no one can experience rebirth without first accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour. And yet unknown numbers of “Gentiles” who never named the name of Jesus will be in heaven. Is this an exception to the rule? Or, is it the rule?

TE: You're not addressing the issue.

MM: The “issue” is exceptions to the rule, right? You believe some people will go to heaven in spite of the fact they continue to cultivate certain sinful habits which God chooses not to reveal to them. And I agree. But I believe such cases are exceptions to the rule. I’m not sure what you believe. You seem to think there are no exceptions to the rule, that exceptions are the rule.

Can we build an argument around exceptions to the rule? In other words, can we forego baptism because the thief wasn’t baptized? Can we forego accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour because unknown numbers of Gentiles didn’t? What is the rule regarding rebirth? And what are the exceptions?

TE: What you stated before is that in order for one to be converted (i.e. born again), it is necessary for God to reveal every sinful habit cultivated from birth, and confess them all.

MM: Which is the rule.

What you wrote before was wrong. It didn't speak of "rules" or "exceptions." You simply stated that before a person could be converted, God had to reveal every sinful habit cultivated since birth, which had to be confessed. This statement was wrong.

Let's recognize that the statement was wrong, and then we can discuss to what degree.

TE: As I pointed out to you, this is not true. I gave smoking and drinking as examples, pointing out that not everyone gives up these habits, even though they are converted. You apparently agreed, because you spoke of God's winking.

MM: Which are exceptions to the rule. Such people are not converted or born again in the full Bible sense of the word.

How can someone be born again in any other sense than the full Bible sense of the word? What did you have in mind when you wrote that before a person could be born again without every sinful habit being revealed? Did you have some sense of "born again" in mind other than what the Bible means? If so, what?

TE: So your original statement was wrong. You believe, as do the rest of us, that sometimes God winks. However, you won't acknowledge that your statement was wrong. I don't know why.

MM: I was referring to the rule, not the exceptions. I don’t know what you believe about exceptions to the rule.

The statement was wrong. It said nothing about rules. It just a simple wrong statement that before a person can be converted (or born again) without the Holy Spirit revealing every sinful habit cultivated since birth. If there are exceptions, the statement is worng. It's just a question of how wrong.

TE: Clearly the idea that God must reveal every sinful habit before one can be born again is false. If this were true, it would mean that God would never reveal a sinful habit to anyone after they were converted, since they would have all been already revealed before conversion.

MM: It depends on if God is making an exception to the rule or not.

You're beginning to sound like Darius.
…………………………

MM: Let’s look at it from this perspective. Jesus said, in no uncertain terms, that baptism is a requisite rite to inherit eternal life. And yet He told the thief on the cross that he would be in heaven. Is this an exception to the rule? Or, is it the rule?

In the same way, no one can experience rebirth without first accepting Jesus as their personal Saviour. And yet unknown numbers of “Gentiles” who never named the name of Jesus will be in heaven. Is this an exception to the rule? Or, is it the rule?

TE: You're not addressing the issue.

MM: The “issue” is exceptions to the rule, right?

No, the issue is you're making incorrect statements, but being unwilling, or unable (I'm not sure which) to recognize when you err.

You believe some people will go to heaven in spite of the fact they continue to cultivate certain sinful habits which God chooses not to reveal to them. And I agree. But I believe such cases are exceptions to the rule. I’m not sure what you believe. You seem to think there are no exceptions to the rule, that exceptions are the rule.

Can we build an argument around exceptions to the rule? In other words, can we forego baptism because the thief wasn’t baptized? Can we forego accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour because unknown numbers of Gentiles didn’t? What is the rule regarding rebirth? And what are the exceptions?

Sure, we can discuss that.

Now, now Tom, inconsistency never was one of Darius faults. No need to mix him and Mike like this...

Lol.

MM: You believe some people will go to heaven in spite of the fact they continue to cultivate certain sinful habits which God chooses not to reveal to them. And I agree. But I believe such cases are exceptions to the rule. I’m not sure what you believe. You seem to think there are no exceptions to the rule, that exceptions are the rule.

Can we build an argument around exceptions to the rule? In other words, can we forego baptism because the thief wasn’t baptized? Can we forego accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour because unknown numbers of Gentiles didn’t? What is the rule regarding rebirth? And what are the exceptions?

TE: Sure, we can discuss that.

MM: Okay.

MM, do you understand that your statement that before anyone can be converted, it is necessary for God to reveal every sinful habit cultivated since birth is incorrect?

Yes, it is incorrect to say "nobody" has experienced the miracle of rebirth without first having confessed and forsaken every sinlge one of their cultivated sinful habits and practices. God has, from time to time, made exceptions to the rule.