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Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett
[Re: vastergotland]
#83903
01/12/07 02:11 PM
01/12/07 02:11 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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How to establish the Bible is an interesting question. My very short answer is that the Bible is established by faith. This is, of course, an inadequate answer. A very good article about this (actually the first chapter of a book) is by A. T. Jones called, "The Place of the Bible in Education."
Regarding what actually happened, there are many other possibilities. Maybe nothing happened and Daniel is just remembering things wrong. Maybe a version of the telephone game happened (one person says something, who tells another, who tells another, and so forth). Who knows?
At any rate, the version of events that I have been arguing against is that the preacher spoke in English and everyone heard them in their own language. I must say, I haven't found the responses to my arguments very convincing.
1.There was a translator present. Why would God supercede the translator? What of the principle that God does not use divine power to do what human power does?
Response. Maybe translation wasn't the issue. Maybe God was wanting to establish the preacher by way of signs and wonder.
My reaction. This is unconvincing. I'll just leave it at that. One can "maybe" anything.
2.If the gift of hearing was involved, that would necessitate all of the hearers being converted and having the same spiritual gift of tongues.
Response. I'm not aware of any.
3.If the preacher spoke one thing and people heard another, God would be altering the reality of the hearers, tricking their brains into perceiving something which wasn't really what happened. There are philosophical problems with this, involving our trust of God and our free will (which I pointed out).
Resonse. I'm not aware of any.
Regarding miracles and truth, what I wrote was the truth is not established by miracles. It is true that in the past God has confirmed the truth by miracles. This does not disagree with what I wrote, which was this:
a)The truth should be established by Scripture. b)Satan can do miracles, and has done so. c)If we rely upon miracles to know if something is true or not, we are setting ourselves up to be deceived.
These points seem self-evident to me. Do you disagree with any of them?
Tom
P.S. Another thing I thought of, regarding the story, was that supposedly the translator said he wasn't translating because each of them was hearing them in their own language. How would he know that? What he would know is that he was hearing the preacher in his own language. He couldn't know what the others were hearing, especially if each one was hearing something different than the sounds actually being made. What would make a lot more sense would be for him to say, "You are speaking our language." not "We are each one hearing you in our language."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett
[Re: Tom]
#83906
01/12/07 03:44 PM
01/12/07 03:44 PM
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Acccording to what I heard myself from the speaker on the TV sharing this experience, the translator obviously wasn't translating into a multitude of languages, which was also unheard of, therefore, the translator was hearing him speak to him and presumably to the others in the language of the people where this speaker was speaking, which is why he ceased translating. When the speaker asked why he wasn't translating, he answered by saying that he was hearing him speaking in their own language, therefore, it was no longer necessary for him to translate.
By the way, everytime I watched these translation messages on TV, I, as a believer in Christ, found it distracting to the reception of the message itself. If I found it distracting, how much more would the unbeliever find it distracting! Could this be why the Holy Spirit became the translator in a miraculous manner, for the purpose of proclaiming the message without the distraction of a translator?
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Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett
[Re: Daryl]
#83928
01/13/07 12:05 AM
01/13/07 12:05 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The Holy Spirit became the translator in a miraculous manner so that some listening in the audience would not be distracted?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett
[Re: Tom]
#83929
01/13/07 12:23 AM
01/13/07 12:23 AM
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Tom, You asked the following question in your post and then removed it: I'm just curious. How many following this thread think this is plausible?
Why did you delete this? I was actually curious myself!
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Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett
[Re: Daryl]
#83932
01/13/07 12:49 AM
01/13/07 12:49 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I thought it might be taken in a negative way. I wasn't wishing to be disrespectful.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett
[Re: Tom]
#83934
01/13/07 01:42 AM
01/13/07 01:42 AM
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It is possible that the speaker was speaking in another language and didn't know or understand it, therefore, he may have misunderstood the response of the translator to his question, or after the passing of time, I didn't remember it correctly, even though that's the way I seem to remember it.
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Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett
[Re: Daryl]
#83935
01/13/07 01:43 AM
01/13/07 01:43 AM
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Unless I hear back from the person who experienced this, we may need to leave it there.
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Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett
[Re: Daryl]
#83940
01/13/07 02:07 AM
01/13/07 02:07 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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We can talk about the possibility of a think happening, or its ramifications, regardless of whether the thing happened or not. That is, is it feasible that a preacher would speak in church, with a translator present, and the Holy Spirit would interrupt the translation so that members of the audience would not be distracted?
Should we even study foreign languages? Why not just rely on the gift of tongues? There seems to be all sorts of advantages to this gift, and no down side, so why go through all that effort?
(sort of reminds me of another thread, where one could ask, why bother to learn Greek or Hebrew when we can just read what Ellen White said)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett
[Re: Tom]
#83941
01/13/07 02:09 AM
01/13/07 02:09 AM
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Well, I personally found this discussion most interesting and thought provoking. I think this is the longest thread resulting from an online message that I saw yet here at MSDAOL.
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Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett
[Re: Daryl]
#83943
01/13/07 02:15 AM
01/13/07 02:15 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Wouldn't some of the threads about 3ABN crush this one in terms of length? Don't some of them involve online messages? (I don't know , as I haven't been following them, but it seems that way to me)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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