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Re: II Cor 3 #8419
12/17/01 08:59 AM
12/17/01 08:59 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
The Old Covenant was the covenant of Law and Obedience and according to Paul it was a ministry of death (2 Corinthians 3:6,7), a ministry that made nothing perfect and was set aside because it was weak and useless (Hebrew 7:18). The obedience of the law keepers was only to the letter but failed to satisfy the spiritual demands of the law, they were judged and found guilty. The whole world become guilty before God and was under condemnation of the law with a death penalty; the wages of sin is death.

Christ came to supervise a new ministry under a new covenant that is the Covenant of Grace and the ministry of the Spirit that gives life.

What is the Covenant of Grace? “I will remember their sins and iniquities no more!”
What is the ministry of the Spirit? “I will put My laws in their hearts, and will write them on their minds!”

The Old Covenant was based on the obedience to the letter, but the new one on the Spirit. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life (2 Corinthians 3:6).

Now, if Christ believers that were marked with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) as a sign of faith, must they not continue their life with a life after the Spirit? Yes, they must! Because it is an order: “The Just shall live by faith”, and a life by faith is a life after the Spirit.

Keeping the letter of the law that was engraved on stone tablets is no longer needed and necessary, it was a sign of SIN. You don’t believe that? Here is the proof!

“The law is not based on faith” and “Everything that does not come from faith is sin” – Galatians 3:12 & Romans 14:23.

To keep the law doesn’t need faith, what the law requires is just PERFECT OBEDIENCE IN REWARD FOR LIFE (Leviticus 18:5; Galatians 3:12). This was the ministry of the Old Covenant. And since no one can fulfil the spiritual demands of the law (love that seeks no self) through their obedience that was based on SELF-LOVE which is the SIN in us, the whole world become guilty before God and need Christ redemption and atonement for their sins. And thus, this ministry was called the ministry of death, because the wages of SIN is death.

But Christ needs His believers to have faith in Him, so that He might marked them with the seal of the Holy Spirit, to lead their life and released them from SIN and death. To release them from SIN means, to put dead to SIN by changing their selfish love to agape, to impart the love of God in their heart.

Now, if Christ believers take the law as a standard for living and have the desire to keep it as an obligation of worship to God, they have taken the ministry of death that was abolished by Christ in His flesh. They reject the ministry of the Spirit that gives life and changes it with the ministry of the letter that kills. This act was and acts of unbelief, an act that shows that they have no faith in Christ. They believe Him (just as the demons who believe and trembles) but deny His authority.

Everything that does not come from faith is sin! Keeping the law requires no faith but perfect obedience, and so, THAT IS SIN. It was based on human desire, based on self-love, based on SIN. And remember that the wages of SIN is death. Thus, keeping the law that requires no faith, in the real sense, is sin!

God never commanded us in His New covenant ministry, to keep the letter of the law, because the letter kills. What He asked from us, Christ believers, is to keep the spirit of the law; that was His command. And since we can not change our nature (self-love) from our selves, we could never keep the spirit of the law (agape love) unless His Spirit is with us. And when the Spirit is in us, He will eliminate SIN (self-love) and impart the love of God in our heart. The fruit of the Spirit will be then: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Galatians 5:22). Against such thing there is no law and SIN (self-love) is no longer our master, this happened because we have taken the ministry of the Spirit and put aside the ministry of the letter that kills. We are not under the law (to keep and obey the law) but under the covenant of Grace.

In His love

James S.


Re: II Cor 3 #8420
12/17/01 09:01 AM
12/17/01 09:01 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
In the Old covenant, it was men that served God with their obedience to the law that was required from them in return for life. The result was a great failure, because they failed to fulfil the spiritual demand of the law, which is love that seeks no self. They failed because of their unbelief (Romans 11:20), and without faith there will be no love as fruit of the Spirit that fulfils the spiritual demands of the law.

Only a few that had shown faith by trusting God unquestionable, and for that, their faith is credited as righteousness. We have Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Samson, David and so on. “All these people were still living by faith when they died” – Hebrew 11:13.

In the New Covenant, it will be the Spirit that serves men (Christ believers) through faith in return for “love.”

John 14:26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the father will send in My name, will TEACH you all things and will REMIND you of every thing I have said to you.”
John 16:7,8 “But I tell you the truth; It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. When He comes, He will CONVICT the world of guilt, in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment.”

We knew the reason why the Old Covenant people failed to fulfil the demands of the law that was required from them, they obey it without faith, and without faith there is no Spirit of God in them to impart the love of God in their heart.

God would not that this failure might happen again after Christ had been offered for the atonement of sin. This failure happened because the Holy Spirit didn’t work in the law-keepers heart due to their unbelief. And so, He set up His New covenant, based on the ministry of the Holy Spirit that will live in those who belief and have faith in Christ. And in them, the Spirit will work “the willing and the doing of God” (Philippians 2:13), in them the Spirit “will write down the principle of the law of God (agape love) in their heart and in their mind” - (Hebrew 8:10). In them the Spirit will serve and work to recreate a whole new man after the likeness of God, love that seeks no self will rule their heart. This works include the eliminating of SIN (self-love).

If we understand this, why do we believe that God’s commandments that was given to the Old Covenant people still exist and valid in it authority for the New Covenant believers? Why do we think that obedience to the law is still needed? God revealed His gospel through Paul, so that Christ believers might know and believed that the service to the ministry of the law from the Old Covenant is over and ended in Christ. Not only the ceremonial law but also the moral law, because the ministry of the law include the whole law. It is no longer us that served the law, but it is now the Spirit that serve us.

What is not made perfect in the ministry of the law will be made perfect in the ministry of the Spirit. And when the ministry of the Spirit came in effect, the ministry of the law is over, nothing is left! (Hebrew 7:18,19).

The former ministry was based on human service (and of course it was based on SELF), but the new ministry was based on the service of the Spirit for those who have faith in Christ, and where the Spirit is, there is life. And where the Spirit ruled, there is love, because God is love.

Thus, it is a real sin, when we take the law again to observe and to obey, we offer again our service (that was based on SELF-love) rather then to receive the service of the Spirit that impart the love of God.

“The law is not of faith, and whatever is not of faith is sin.”

Now is the Covenant of grace, a ministry of the Spirit, what is required from us is “the just shall live by faith.”

Not by works was the remnant chosen, but by grace (Romans 11:5).

In His love

James S.


Re: II Cor 3 #8421
12/17/01 02:56 PM
12/17/01 02:56 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Are you then saying that it doesn't really matter for the born again Christian to willfully and continuously break His Holy Law and still consider himself a born again Christian ready and waiting for the second coming of Jesus Christ?
If so, then are you not in effect saying that a born again Christian will continue in sin?
Are you not also aware that sin is the transgression of God's law?

Daryl.

Brother Daryl, did I give any indication for that? Please check my post and you will find none of it.

In His love

James S.


Re: II Cor 3 #8422
12/18/01 04:09 AM
12/18/01 04:09 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,123
Nova Scotia, Canada
If you are not saying that, then are you saying that it really does matter for the born again Christian to willfully and continuously break His Holy Law, and still consider himself a born again Christian, ready and waiting for the second coming of Jesus Christ?

If so, then are you not in effect saying that a born again Christian will not continue in sin?

And again this question: Are you not also aware that sin is the transgression of God's law?

Therefore, if so, then how can you say that the law has been abolished?

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]


Re: II Cor 3 #8423
12/18/01 05:13 AM
12/18/01 05:13 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Please check again my postings and you will find:

1. Obedience to the law is the ministry of the Old Covenant, ministry to the letter that kills, a ministry of death.
2. Christ has ended this ministry “in Him.”
3. Since the cross, a new ministry came in effect, it is the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
4. What is needed from them that believe Christ as their Redeemer and Savior is their faith in Him. Firstly, they will be justified freely by their faith in Him, and secondly Christ will live in them. The first is justification by faith, the second is sanctification through the Spirit.
5. Christ believers had been released from the Law (obligation to keep and obey) in Christ, and thus were not under the law.
6. But without Law shall they live the way they wants, shall they continue living in sin? If so is the case, they are not Christ believers and have no faith in Him.
7. Christ believers have an obligation but not to the flesh to live according to it, but to the Spirit.
8. Their freedom “in Christ” is not a license to live in sin.
9. When Christ is in your heart, do you need anything else? This is the ministry of the Spirit, this is the service of the Spirit, to eliminate sin in you and to impart God’s love in you. What is needed from you is just faith. The just shall live by faith!
10. Being under grace, if this believer commits sins, God will remember his sins and iniquities no more. But if he continues with his live for the flesh, he will die.
11. Led by the Spirit doesn’t mean that this believer will live a sinless perfect life. The Spirit is in him to lead his life, but the Spirit does not become him and he becomes not the Spirit. The Spirit greatest task is to eliminate sin (self-love) and so He will be in a constant war with sin in you. And so, some time you might do the things you do not want to do, or you hate to do. But this sin and iniquities God will remember no more. And since you are under grace and not under the law, there is no law that you break that could condemn you.
12. But law keepers, having taken the ministry of the law again, they put them self back under the law and it condemnation. When they break the law, the law will judge them and condemn them.
13. Taking the ministry of the law is the same with rejecting the ministry of the Spirit. Ministry of the law is your service to God through obedience (and in the Old Covenant time it was a great failure), but ministry of the Spirit is God service to you, to make you righteous, to make you just, to make you have the “love of God” in your heart.
14. That’s why; the law is not of faith, and if you take it, you live in sin, because “whatever is not of faith is sin.” And also it is a sign of disbelieve, because you trust your self more rather then the Spirit. Unfortunately you forget that you are under dominion of sin, and so, your law obedience was based on sin as you live in sin. On the contrary if you give yourself to the Spirit, He will eliminate sin in you and impart the love of God that fulfils the righteous demands of the law.
15. Sin is transgression to the law, and the wages of sin is death. Those who are under the law (taking the ministry of the law) were under condemnation of the law “the wages of sin is death”, because their obedience was based on sin (self-love). Sin is self-love, it transgress the holy principle of God’s Kingdom “love that seeks no self.” Thus, sin is not only a transgression to the letter of the law but in the real sense it is a transgression to the nature of God as this act was performed by you that were under dominion of sin that is self-love.

In His love

James S.


Re: II Cor 3 #8424
12/18/01 02:21 PM
12/18/01 02:21 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,123
Nova Scotia, Canada
In the Judgment how will we all be judged?

What will our rewards or otherwise be based on?


Re: II Cor 3 #8425
12/18/01 06:33 PM
12/18/01 06:33 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
In Christ we have been redeemed from the wages of SIN (2nd death), and Christ in us will release us from the power of SIN.

The first is our salvation and the second is our sanctification.

To have both, all what is required from us is FAITH. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God (Hebrew 11:6).

Why is SIN such an important matter that Christ Himself must take care of it? Because SIN is our nature, it is our character, it is self-love. We can do nothing to change it, we must live with it, it is a part of us, it is us.

And since Sin or “self-love” is against God’s nature that is “love that seeks no self,” all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

The Old Covenant people (Israel) were all under the law because the Covenant was based on the ministry of the law that requires perfect obedience for return of life. But their service to the law were a great failure, because Israel didn’t base their service on faith but on works (Romans 9:32).

To avoid a repetition of this failure, God set up a New Covenant with His people, the Covenant of grace that was based on the ministry of the Spirit. It is no longer man that serve God with keeping the law (that will only breaks the law), but it is the Spirit that keep the (intent of the) law for men.

As the intent of the law was based on the principle of God’s nature “love that seeks no self”, then only the Holy Spirit that can carry it out for men in their heart, because the heart of men is selfish and stand opposite with God’s nature. As long obedience is based on the service of men, what is gained only legalistic righteousness, righteousness to the letter of the law.

Based on this concept, the New Covenant of God requires ONLY faith from Christ believers. By faith we are in Him, and in Him we have our life (1 John 5:11) because in Him we were redeemed from the wages of SIN (2nd death). And if we are in Him, He will be in us. And if Christ is in us, He will release us from the power of SIN. This He did by eliminating SIN through the imparted love of God that was shed abroad in our heart by the Spirit. What else is needed? The moral law? Nothing!

“Remain in Me and I will remain in you” – John 15:4.

“He that believeth the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him” – John 3:36.

“Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him” – Hebrew 10:38

“For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith” – Romans 1:17.

Keeping the law is taking the ministry of the law that was abolished by Christ in His flesh and was ended in Him. It is no longer our service to God by keeping the law, but it is the service of the Spirit for us. The first one was a ministry of death and made nothing perfect, the second is a ministry that gives life.

There is no combine works, works of man and works of the Spirit. Either you take the ministry of death or take the ministry of the Spirit. Taking both means you don’t understand the gospel of Christ and that is a proof that you have no faith in Christ, because you don’t believe that the Spirit in you will make you righteous and so you need the law as a mirror.

The law is not of faith, and whatever is not of faith is sin!

In His love

James S


Re: II Cor 3 #8426
12/18/01 07:06 PM
12/18/01 07:06 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,123
Nova Scotia, Canada
It is obvious to me that we are not either saved or lost by the law. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ. We definitely can't earn it.

We are saved or lost depending whether or not we abide or do not abide in Christ.


Re: II Cor 3 #8427
12/20/01 05:50 PM
12/20/01 05:50 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
It is obvious to me that we are not either saved or lost by the law. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ. We definitely can't earn it.
We are saved or lost depending whether or not we abide or do not abide in Christ

Daryl.

That is what the gospel of Christ told us.

We accept salvation by faith if we abide in Him and we lost our salvation by unbelief if we do not abide in Christ. WHY? Because “in Him” we have our redemption (from wages of SIN) and forgiveness of sins (by grace) – Colossianns 1:13. In im we have our eternal life (1 John 5:11; Colosians 3:3), in Him we seat with God in the heavenly realms (Ephesians 2:6).

What else is needed except faith to abide in Him. Where does the moral laws fits in, where does obedience fits in? Fruit of the Spirit fulfils all the demands of the law, and we have this fruit if we abide in Christ by faith. It is all God who did it for us, it is the ministry of the Spirit anyway.

In His love

James S.


Re: II Cor 3 #8428
12/21/01 07:34 PM
12/21/01 07:34 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
“But when the fullness of the time was come, God senth forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoptions of sons” – Galatians 4:4,5.

Who were under the law? Those that were under the ministry of the law, those that lived in the Old Covenant time.

Since the cross of Christ, no new born were under the law. Why? Because Christ has abolished the law in Him and nailed it to His cross (Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2; 14), the functions of the law ended in Christ (Romans 10:4) and a new ministry was established, the ministry of the Spirit that gives life.

The ministry of the law is until John (cross of Christ) – Luke 16:16, this ministry could only condemn men with death and made nothing perfect, it was set aside because it was weak and useless (Hebrew 7:18). Since the cross a new Covenant came in effect, and the Old Covenant was made obsolete and disappear (Hebrew 8:13).

With Christ death and resurrection all men has been redeemed from the wages of SIN (2nd death) and justified freely by the grace of God. Salvation had appeared to all men (Titus 2:11) because of “one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men” – Romans 5:18, “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive” – 2 Corinthians 15:22.

And when all men have been justified and made alive in Christ, there was no more need for the ministry of the law, it is finished and taken away. No men need to be justified by the law (because all has been made righteous and justified by Christ work of redemption), thus, no one will be condemn by the law (for breaking the law). Because Christ died only ONCE, thus, there must be no more law that could condemn men with death as there will be no more sacrifice for sins (if the law still exist, many will be condemned by the law and Christ could not come again to die for them).

What is left for men now is to believe and to have faith in Christ, the Redeemer and Savior of men. Those that believe and have faith in Him will live, but those who believe not will not see life (John 3:36).

Those that believe and have faith in Christ will be led by His Spirit to all righteousness and holy life that fulfils the spiritual demands of the law, which is “love that seeks no self.” Something that could not be attained through the ministry of the law in the Old Covenant time. That’s why this ministry was called the ministry of the Spirit, because it was the Spirit that work in Christ believers heart to change their sinful nature by condemning SIN and to impart the love of God.

And in Christ there is no condemnation, either from the law because there is no law, or from SIN and our sins. Because Christ has redeemed us from the wages of SIN and in Christ God remember our sins and iniquities no more.

There is no room for the law, it is over and finished. All has been done for men’s salvation, what is required from them now is just FAITH in Christ and to live by faith.

The just shall live by faith! If some one take the law (moral law) again to keep and obey it, he has shown his unbelief, he didn’t belief the gospel of Christ or he didn’t know what is the gospel of Christ. And since Christ die no more, there is no more sacrifice of sins for him, he remained under the wrath of God. But those who live by the ministry of the Spirit are all under the grace of God, for that His New Covenant was called the covenant of grace.

Note: I have a bit difficulty in expressing my thoughts in proper English but I hope that you might understand the point, which is: Christ has redeemed those who WERE (past tense) under the law, those who lived in the era of the Old Covenant, those who were under the ministry of the law, in order WE (those after the cross) might receive the adoption of sons through a free justification and righteousness that comes from God. All have been saved (through Christ redemption from the wages of SIN) and were or are under the grace of God that remember our sins and iniquities no more. What is left is our faith to believe the gospel and to live by faith, with this we accept all what God has done for us. The rest is the work of God to maintain our salvation for us through His Spirit or through the ministry of the Spirit. The ministry of the law (including the moral law) was over, because there will be no more those who were or is under the law that need redemption.

In His love

James S.


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