I am not saying that there are no places for dual applications or even triple applications. Regarding Zechariah's vision of Joshua and the Angel, Ellen White notes three applications.

That being said, I am concerned about many of the so-called dual applications that are out there.

Out of the popular ones, which ones can someone believe in and still leave Adventism's major doctrines intact? Which ones genuinely can have a past fulfillment and a future fulfillment, without us becoming "fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken"? Which ones can we believe in without concluding that the prophet got it wrong?

Have you considered the Restoration Promises recorded all throughout the Old Testament? Especially the ones listed in Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

All of them should have been fulfilled by ancient Israel. Do we toss them out because Israel failed as a nation? No. A careful reading of the GC will reveal how Ellen White reapplied them to the issues associated with end time events.

Similarly, our Church should have fulfilled the balance of unfulfilled prophecy shortly after the Great Disappointment. But we failed to fulfill the gospel commission. Now what? Are we supposed to toss out those prophecies? I hope not.

When do we as a Church say the 7th seal and the 7th trumpet was fulfilled? From what I've read, the Church believes we are only half way through the 6th seal, and there is no clear belief regarding the 7th seal. And the 7th trumpet is also only partially fulfilled. But we say the 7 thunders were completely fulfilled by 1844.

I would like to suggest that from a historical application point of view all seven seals and trumpets have already been fulfilled as of 1844, and that we are now waiting for the future final reapplication of them.

If we follow what our pioneers wrote about the first 6 seals and trumpets and take it to its logical conclusion we might say something like this:

The 6th Seal - following the signs named in Rev 6:12,13 (which were fulfilled in 1755, 1780 and 1833) came the Millerite Movement. The events leading up to the Great Disappointment might very well be symbolically described in verses 14-17.

Before you get to excited take at look how the pioneers interpreted the 4 horsemen of Rev 8:6-13. If they could apply those symbols to the rise and fall of Eastern nations then why can't we be just as consistent and do the same with Rev 6:14-17?

If so, here's what it might look like: the "scroll" (verse 14) could be the book of Daniel (compare with Rev 10). The "mountains" and "islands" could represent the obstacles the Millerites overcame preaching the return of Christ (compare Mat 21:21). And those who "hid" (verse 15) could symbolize those who rejected the message or who weren't ready for Jesus to come.

And the "silence" (Rev 8:1) of the 7th seal might have been that period of time the faithful were waiting until the Lord led them to discover the truth about the heavenly sanctuary and the investigative judgment.

If a person is willing to consider this expanded interpretation then it is also possible that the 7 seals have a future final reapplication. And this application would in no way destroy the truthfulness of the historical application, no more so than Jesus' dual application in Mat 24.

I'll say more later on if you can stomach what I've suggested so far. By the way, I have a 4 page study on this topic. If anyone is interested I can email it to you.

Mike,

It seems apparent to me that there are prophecies in the OT that are conditional as to the type and unconditional as to the antitype. Thus some will never be fulfilled for the nation of Israel and will definitely be for antitypical Israel. And thus it was always meant to be, one possible fulfillment for the type and one definite fulfillment for the antitype. See my paper http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/ezekiels-city-circumference-of-the-earth.htm for a good example of this kind of thing.

If we don't have a solid understanding of the 7th seal, it's because we have forgotten EGW's first vision and James White's scripture references in A Word to the Little Flock. The half hour of silence is the "time of awful silence" that occurs as we wait for Jesus to answer our question, "Who shall be able to stand?" GC pistures the same time of silence. Prophetic time ceased in 1844.

I take it you mean that if our pioneers used the trumpets to depict eastern nations, why can't we do that with the seals. Is that what you meant?

Well, we can't. While the Bible uses the symbols of the first 4 trumpets in the OT to depict military conquest of Babylon or Judah or Israel, it uses the symbol of a horse in three places to represent God's people. Also, Ps. 45 and Acts 2 mandate that the 1st seal refer to Pentecost. I already outlined these things elsewhere, but here are the Scriptures again: Is. 63:13; Ca. 1:9; Zec. 10:3; Rev. 19:11; Ps. 45:1-7; Acts 2:37.

When you say that the seals might have a future application, what would the dark day and the stars in the future represent?

I think your suggestions about the scroll departing away, etc., are akin to those made by the spiritualizers after Oct. 22.

Not that literal things might not have spiritual significance, as literal Israel and literal Canaan vs. the church and the new earth.

But the literal always comes first. The type always comes first. Thus the heavens would have to literally depart before we have any kind of antitypical meaning.

You mention Mt. 24. Could you please be specific about which verses in Mt. 24 denote a dual application. I don't think it's as many as people think. Which ones do you think definitely are dual?

Pickle wrote:

"And thus it was always meant to be, one possible fulfillment for the type and one definite fulfillment for the antitype."

I agree. Thank you. Seems to me that the principles remain unchanged whereas the particulars may vary a little or a lot depending on the prophecy. For example, Ezekiel's temple will look alot different in the new earth than it would have had Israel been faithful.

Pickle wrote:

"The half hour of silence is the "time of awful silence" that occurs as we wait for Jesus to answer our question, "Who shall be able to stand?"

Amen. I concur exactly. "The righteous cry with trembling: "Who shall be able to stand?" The angels' song is hushed, and there is a period of awful silence. Then the voice of Jesus is heard, saying: "My grace is sufficient for you." GC 641.

Pickle wrote:

"I take it you mean that if our pioneers used the trumpets to depict eastern nations, why can't we do that with the seals. Is that what you meant?"

Yes. And I guess we disagree on this point. I'm just suggesting that if we apply the same logic to the 6th seal that our pioneers used to interpret the first 4 trumpets then it might read the way I shared.

Pickle wrote:

"When you say that the seals might have a future application, what would the dark day and the stars in the future represent?"

The same thing. It would parallel the first 4 trumpets and plagues after the close of probation.

Pickle wrote:

"I think your suggestions about the scroll departing away, etc., are akin to those made by the spiritualizers after Oct. 22."

So, those aren't new thoughts? Pretty cool.

Pickle wrote:

"But the literal always comes first. The type always comes first. Thus the heavens would have to literally depart before we have any kind of antitypical meaning."

Are you sure the literal always precedes the symbolic? What about the trumpets?

Pickle wrote:

"You mention Mt. 24. Could you please be specific about which verses in Mt. 24 denote a dual application. I don't think it's as many as people think. Which ones do you think definitely are dual?"

Here's what Ellen wrote: "The prophecy which He uttered was twofold in its meaning; while foreshadowing the destruction of Jerusalem, it prefigured also the terrors of the last great day." GC 25.

Mike:

Ezekiel's Temple

Based on the findings in my paper, Ezekiel's temple will never be built, but that which it should have been a type of if it had been built will exist forever in the new earth.

Dark Day

The darkness at Christ's return cannot be a future fulfillment of the 6th seal. In the 6th seal you have an earthquake 1st, and then the darkness. At the 2nd coming, according to GC, you have darkness 1st and then the earthquake, the same order that's seen in the 5th and 7th plagues. Since the order at the 2nd coming is reversed, that which happens then cannot possibly be a future fulfillment of the 6th seal.

Literal First

In what way does the symbolic preced the literal in regard to the trumpets?

2-Fold Mat. 24

Please answer the question. I know what GC says, and I believe it. Which verses in mat. 24 do you see being fulfilled twice?

Will Christ be seen twice in the clouds by all the tribes of the earth? Was He seen that way before the destruction of Jerusalem, or is that one aspect of Mat. 24 that only has one fulfillment?

Pickle, may I say studying with you is a great pleasure. I very much appreciate the kind and curteous manner in which you address the questions and comments I pose. Thank you.

RE: Temple - I like that thought. But it creates another question: if Moses built his sanctuary after the pattern shown him, then which temple did Solomon and Ezekiel pattern their temples after? Could it be that perhaps the temple that will exist in the new earth is as yet not built? I realize that the New Jersalem will descend with Jesus and the saved after the millennium, but does the temple outside the city follow it?

RE: 6th Seal - the listed order of events found in the seals, trumpets and plagues are similar enough to encourage me to consider how they might over lap in future. My own studies have led me to observe that the first 5 seals might be fulfilled during the little time of trouble leading up to the final close of probation. And that the last 2 seals, the trumpets and the plagues will be fulfilled after the probation closes and continue until Jesus raptures the saints. It is also my personal conviction that the natural disasters associated with the seals, trumpets and plagues will be caused by an astroid impact.

RE: Literal Trumpets - I think I might be misunderstanding your question, but here goes. Our pioneers applied a symbolic interpretation to the trumpets rather than a literal one. In other words, they didn't think that the "burning mountain" or "star" were literally so.

RE: Mat 24 - specifying which particular details have a historical and future application may not be an easy matter, but it would seem safe to say that the false christs, wars, natural disasters and persecution go both ways. Admittedly, the prophecy of Jesus and the other prophecies are different in many ways. His was not couched in symbolism. With those found in the Revelation we are faced with the difficult task of discerning which aspects are literal and which ones are symbolic, especially considering sometimes it's a mixture of both.

Mike,

Thanks for your thanks. If anything ever sounds inappropriate, please let me know.

The Pattern

The pattern Moses was shown was not actually the heavenly temple.

quote:

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He presented before Moses a miniature model of the heavenly sanctuary, and commanded him to make all things according to the pattern showed him in the mount. (1SP 269)

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David could have been shown a model as well, only a larger one. Perhaps what Ezekiel saw was actually a model.

New Earth Temple Built Yet?

Probably is. Since there will be no temple in the New Jerusalem, and since there is one now, where does the present one go? My thought is that it probably gets moved over to Mt. Zion after the new earth is created, though I would be disappointed if this is wrong.

EGW's 1st vision is actually two put together. You can find where the break is from 1T 67. What appears to be at the end of the 1st part of the 1st vision rather than at the beginning of the 2nd part of the 1st vision is the following:

quote:

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And as we were gazing at the glories of the place our eyes were attracted upwards to something that had the appearance of silver. I asked Jesus to let me see what was within there. In a moment we were winging our way upward, and entering in; here we saw good old father Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel, and many like them.(WLF 16)

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Then follows a decription of the Most Holy.

Later when EGW was answering questions about this part of the vision, she said:

quote:

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In another passage from the book A Word to the Little Flock, I speak of scenes upon the new earth, and state that I there saw holy men of old, "Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel and many like them."

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So it would appear that when the New Jerusalem first comes down to earth, the temple is still in it. Therefore I feel that after the new earth is created, then this temple is moved outside the city.

Similarities Between Seals, Trumpets, and Plagues

Why these similarities exist, I do not know. But I do know this: Rev. 14:7 misquotes the 4th commandment. "Who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that in them is/fountains of waters." The last expression is found in the 3rd trumpet and plague. In the 1st four trumpets and plagues we have these four elements, though in different order: earth, sea, fountains of waters, and heaven.

Future Seals and Trumpets

My contention is that they cannot possibly be future. Two reasons: 1) Exegetically. 2) Putting them future affects the integrity of our message.

Exegetically involves several things: 1) Immediate context. 2) How the symbols are used elsewhere. 3) The interconnections between them and other prophecies.

6th Seal After Close of Probation

When? As pointed out, it can't be at the 2nd coming. When do you think it would happen again?

5th Seal

Regarding this happening again during the little time of trouble, please note 4MR 89 (1904) and 21MR 101 (1907). Thus the little time of trouble probably has been going on a for a century now, and includes Stalin's purges, Pol Pot, Hiroshima, Rwanda, and September 11.

It would appear that perhaps the little time of trouble is almost over, and thus if the first 5 seals are to be repeated then, we're almost out of time for that to happen.

Literal Trumpets

Now I understand your point.

Consider my paper on the trumpets: http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/seven-trumpets.htm . In it I demonstrate how all the trumpets utilize symbols associated with military conquest. Also, the 4th trumpet poses mountainous difficulties to a future fulfillment. Consider these things and tell me your thoughts.

Mat. 24

I think you hit the nail on the head. The "wars and rumours of wars" part applies to both before the fall of Jerusalem and before the 2nd coming.

But notice Mat. 24:11 and 24. Thus we have Jesus specifically putting false prophets back then and today. If we make both verses dual, then we have Christ predicting 4 times of false prophets, not just 2.

Also notice Lk. 21:11 and 25. Two times of signs in the heavens. One back then and one today. If they're both dual, then we have 4 times of heavenly signs, not just 2.

Jesus mingled the events together, and left it for His disciples to figure it out (DA 628). One question we should ask ourselves is if they had a bit of it figured out before they wrote it down. Luke was Paul's associate, and Paul knew that the pope had to reign for 1260 years before the second coming (2 Th. 2; GC 356). Thus it is likely that what Matthew and Luke wrote down is not as mingled as it was when Christ first gave the instruction.

One last point: We have a solid basis for saying that Mat. 24 has a dual application to the fall of Jerusalem and the end of time. Do we have any similar statements to say that Mat. 24 has a third application? 1) Fall of Jerusalem. 2) 1780 & 1833. 3) After Close of Probation.

What I am suggesting is that we are out of bounds when we use these statements of Ellen White to show that there could be a dual fulfillment of the Dark Day. If there were to be two fulfillments of the Dark Day, then the first would have to be at the fall of Jerusalem, for that is what her statements say. Two-fold meaning: 1) Fall of Jerusalem. 2) End of time. She doesn't allow for a third in her statements.

Mike wrote:

quote:

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Pickle, may I say studying with you is a great pleasure. I very much appreciate the kind and curteous manner in which you address the questions and comments I pose. Thank you.

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I also appreciate that.

May we all, likewise, be as kind and courteous as this makes for a family atmosphere in MSDAOL, even when we disagree over a topic.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl

Excellent study on the temple in the new earth. I really like the way you strung those passages together. Well done. We shall have to wait and see which temple God places atop the mount. But I would be surprised if there is an outer court compartment since it deals with blood sacrifices.

The other two apartments, as I see it, apply throughout eternity, that is, they could be employed in a way different than has been now. In other words, God might institute new services connected with them which do not involve the sin problem, services which would symbolize growth in righteousness and holiness.

Personally, I don't have a problem with entertaining the idea that the seals and trumpet might accommodate two dispensations; 1) 34-1844 AD, and 2) 1844-the 2nd Advent. I also don't have a problem with people who believe only in the historical view. In the bigger scheme of things it plays a small part either way. Not that it isn't important what we believe about the prophecies, because it is. I believe we are safe either way providing our views do not deviate drastically from the main frame of events as eloquently penned by Ellen White.

As they say, The devil is in the details, so maybe a person should be careful with trying to figure out every detail. However, it might be a good idea to try and reconcile some of the things Ellen White says about future events with the Bible, especially in those places where she isn't quoting or interpreting the Bible.

Here's a couple thoughts to consider:

1. The 7 churches - if these churches represent time periods ending with the remnant church, is it fair to reason that the first word in chapter 4 ("After this") indicates an ongoing narrative? If so, then it seems logical to suggest that the phrase, "I will show thee things which must be hereafter" (Rev 4:1), is referring to developments that would transpire during the Laodicea Era (1844-the return of Jesus).

2. If, from a dual application perspective, it is allowable to apply the seals to the last day remnant church (the SDA church) then I can very easily picture how they go along quite nicely with what we believe about end time events. I can elaborate later on if necessary.

3. Rev 4:2 pictures "one" divine being seated on the throne, but when Jesus returned to heaven in AD 31 He sat beside the Father on the sides of the north. Thus, there would have been two on the throne. But when Jesus followed the Father into the most holy place in 1844 He stood before Him. Which would mean only one sat on the throne. These observations may indicate that Rev 4 portrays Jesus in the MHP sometime afater 1844.

4. Rev 4:11 and 5:12 says Jesus is worthy to "receive" honor, power, authority, etc., which may be a reference to Dan 7:9-14 where Jesus enters the MHP to receive His everlasting dominion during the inv. judgment.

5. Rev 5 is all about opening the "book", which may be a reference to Dan 7:9-14 where Jesus began examining the books in 1844.

6. Perhaps all these similarities are mere coincidenses. But you can't blame a guy for wondering if they aren't.

RE: The 6th Seal - if it accurate to believe there will be a future final application of the 6th seal then I suspect it will happen the moment probation closes, and that it is associated with the asteroid impact.

RE: The 5th Seal - I am familiar with Ellen White's comments about the latter rain, the little time of trouble and 144,000 beginning to come together during her lifetime. However, my studies have led me to conclude that those things passed due to the church not being ready. Thus, I now believe that they are yet future as of today, and will begin to unfold again shortly after the USA begins enforcing the federal sunday laws, at which time I doubt there will be any stopping them until Jesus arrives in glory.

RE: The 7 Trumpets - thank you for those well developed thoughts on the trumpets. Please consider the following observations in light of what you wrote:

1. Rev 8:2-5 seems to describe the close of probation. The "golden censer" was used in the MHP on the day of atonement, and tossing it to the ground strongly suggests the end of Jesus' MHP ministry. The sounding of the trumpets gives the impression that Jesus has mounted His war horse and is earthbound to mete out the rewards of mankind.

2. The striking similarities between the natural disasters potrayed in the first 4 trumpets and what scientists say would happen if an asteroid a half mile long were to impact the Pacific ocean may be more than a coincidense.

3. The fact there are people who have the "seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev 9:4), during the 5th trumpet, speaks in favor of events that happen after probation closes.

Again, please understand that I am not on some hobby horse to convince people to believe one way or another concerning the things I've shared regarding how things might be in future. The only thing I can confidently believe without a doubt is what Sister White wrote in the GC and LDE. That's not to say I don't enjoy studying prophecy, or hearing what you have discovered.

Mike,

After This

Your point is something to consider, but I don't think it is valid. Consider Rev. 15:5 where the same Greek phrase occurs. If your point was true, then we would have to have the 7 last plagues poured out after we get to heaven.

Rather, John is merely saying that he's seeing another scene. The scenes are no necessarily chronological.

Seals Future?

No one has yet been willing to answer my points regarding the 5th seal. From what I can tell, the 5th seal cannot possibly be future. And if the 5th can't, then the first 5 can't.

We have a few passages like 5T 451 that say that the blood of the martyrs will cry out to God during the time of Jacob's trouble, and the 5th seal is quoted.

This is in contrast to the pioneer's position that the 5th seal had to do with after the inquisition and the sending of the Reformation. Yet what many have missed is GC 59, 60 which supports this very position.

And then there is RH 7/17/00 paragraph 5 which says that the martyrs cried before the 1st advent of Christ.

What it appears is that a number of times, starting with Abel, things have gotten so bad that God had to do something. "A crisis had arrived in the government of God." He spoke to Cain. The voices hushed. He sent Jesus the first time. The voices hushed. He sent the Reformation. The voices hushed. He will send Jesus the 2nd time. The voices will praise God throughout eternity.

So which time of crying was the fulfillment of the 5th seal? Abel? No. The 1st advent? No. How about the time of Jacob's trouble?

quote:

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. . . and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Rev. 6:11)

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If there will be no martyrs after the close of probation, then how can what happens during the time of Jacob's trouble be a fulfillment of this?

quote:

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Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

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If the earth will no longer cover her slain after the close of probation, how could these martyrs be told to rest yet? After God talked to Cain, his blood rested. After the 1st advent, they rested. After the Reformetion, they rested. But when they cry that last time, THEY WILL REST NO MORE!

Therefore I must conclude that it is an utter impossibility for the 5th seal to have either its 1st fulfillment or its 2nd fulfillment in the future.

Rev. 4 - Holy or Most Holy?

GC 414, 415 says that this is the 1st apartment. Since the Lord said it's the 1st, we really ought no to say it's the 2nd.

The fact of the matter is that the reason Christ isn't pictured in Rev. 4 is because He arrives in ch. 5.

EGW uses the praises of Rev. 5 in AA and 3SP when decribing the ascension of Christ. In the latter she makes it clear that the 24 elders are those that Christ took to heaven at that time. This is an additional reason why we really cannot put Rev. 5 after 1844.

A third reason is this: Why was not Christ worthy to loose the seals of the book in Rev. 5:3. Crucial point. In vs. 3 not even Jesus was worthy. It's not until vs. 5 that Christ is worthy. And why is He worthy? Because He had "prevailed," conquered, overcome sin, Satan, and the grave. In vs. 6 we see the Lamb as if He had been slain. Why? Because we are talking about the ascension. Thus we have solid support for EGW's interpretation of these things found in AA and 3SP.

Now if we want to ignore this, we have to contend with 5:13. GC quotes this one on its last page for a reason. It's future. And when it occurs, the seals will all be over. When the wicked are calling for the rocks to fall on them, when they're blaspheming God because of the plagues, every creature will not yet be praising God.

Two choices: Either the seals occur after the end of sin, an impossibility, or the ascension and the end of sin form the boundaries between which the seals take place. The latter is the right choice.

If the seals don't occur till after 1844, then why did AA 45 apply the first seal to Pentecost, in harmony with Ps. 45 and Acts 2:37?

Please notice that your points regarding one being on the throne in Rev. 4, etc., suggest not a dual fulfillment but a single fulfillment in the future. This is my concern: People start with dual and end up with one, tossing out the interpretations given in the SOP. If for the reasons you suggest, the seals are future to 1844, then GC is wrong when it puts the Dark Day in 1780. Thus confidence in our message diminishes.

Rev. 8 and Close of Probation

EW 279 associates the casting down of the censer with the close of probation.

But we are overlooking something: The Angel (Jesus our High Priest) doesn't use the censer at first. He burns incense on the golden altar, which is something Aaron was told to do every morning and evening. Thus we must be looking into the Holy Place, and thus we are saved from the embarassing conclusion that EGW was wrong in GC 414, 415 when she said John was looking into the Holy Place at this point.

When the Angel put fire into the censer, that is when we are looking at the yearly work, for the high priest did that on Yom Kippur.

If we place the trumpets after the close of probation because of the casting down of the censer, we err, for we are not being consistent. We are overlooking the voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. Compare Rev. 4:5; 8:5; 11:19; 16:18, 21. What we are looking at is the voice of God delivering His people. That causes the earthquake. Hail occurs at the same time.

Simply put, to be consistent, we must place the trumpets after the 7th plague, which is impossible.

So the proper way to look at it is that Christ's daily work and the second coming form the boundaries between which the seven trumpets take place.

The plagues are the same. Their intro is in ch. 15. The boundaries there are no man being allowed into the temple (the close of probation) and the redeemed standing on the sea of glass.

Asteroid?

I don't see how an asteroid can cause the 4th trumpet. How can an asteroid knock out 1/3 of the sun, and cause us to have 8 hours of daylight instead of 12? How can it do the same for the moon?

For that matter, I can't see how there can possibly be any future fulfillment of the 4th trumpet, or how it can be taken literally.

Pat Robertson wrote a novel about end time events. The US President commits suicide as he speaks to the nation about an asteroid soon hitting the Pacific. Then the VP becomes the President. He's a drunk, so his wife asks help from some immoral person, who hooks him up with a new VP. I think eventually the President is assassinated, and this new VP becomes the President. He ends up ruling the world from elsewhere. Some kook saying "death to the new world order" shoots him in the head, and the immoral guy (aka "false prophet") who got him into the government commands him (aka "the beast") to come back to life, which he does. Then he wants his statue put up everywhere, which the Jews don't want in their new temple, so he gets mad. And that's where I quit reading this garbage.

So the idea of an asteroid is part of the package that is getting Protestants away from their historicist roots. Whether right or wrong, that's what it is doing.

Back to This Thread's Topic

If we put any of the first 6 trumpets into the future, what do we do with Rev. 8:13; 9:12; 10:7; and 11:14? If the 6th trumpet hasn't commenced yet, then neither has Rev. 10, and neither has Rev. 11. Thus one of the foundational doctrines of Adventism is destroyed.

More than that, in Rev. 10 the book of Daniel is unsealed. Wheich part? The head of gold? That was never sealed. Dan. 8:17 and 26 make it clear that specifically the 2300 days were to be sealed until the time of the end. Dan. 11:33, 35 and 12:4:6, 7 make it clear that the time of the end began after the 1260 days.

Now if we say that Rev. 10 is future because it's part of the 6th trumpet, and if the trumpets are future it must be too, then we are in big trouble. What we are inevitably saying is that the 2300 days are still sealed, and the 1260 days have not yet ended.

The Angel of Rev. 10 announces the end of the 2300 days. So we are basically saying that the 2300 days have not ended yet.

And thus we are basically putting off the 2nd coming, because before He comes we must have 1) these prophecies unsealed, 2) a world-wide message based on them, 3) a revival ending with a bitter experience, 4) a second world-wide message, presumable connected with the 3rd angel's message.

So should we destroy Adventism because we can't seem to figure out why the seal of God is mentioned in the 5th trumpet? Or would it be better to conclude that there have always been some who kept the Sabbath? And that when Abu Bekr told his troops to leave such alone, that the reason it sounds like he was quoting Rev. 9 was because he was, whether he knew it or not?

[This message has been edited by Pickle (edited November 18, 2001).]