Did not the prophet say that there would be nothing about the appearance of Gods Messiah that would draw us to Him? "For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,And like a root out of parched ground;He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him." Thus, should we draw the conclusion that God's appearance is either so bland that noone would notice it in a crowd or so ugly that people would shun it? For if it is attractive, Isaiah would have to be speaking about someone else, right?"And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming."
One could wonder why the appearance of His face would change in this event of glory?

So you say that Jesus is fallible but prophecy is infallible? And then you have breath left to accuse Bradford of confusing things? Ttt...

Jonah brought the prophetic message that Nineveh would fall after a certain period of time. The people repented and Nineveh did not fall. In Pauls words: "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away;". Prophetic messages will fall but God will be ever true, even God incarnate. Moses asked to see God's glory, and God replied by the declaration of His divine virtues. We learn, God's character is His glory.
You teach that our relationship with Jesus and God depends on correct knowledge. Jesus teached that our relationship with Him depends on us approaching Him as children. Your teaching does not match that of Jesus. Sorry pal, Jesus gets the first hearing, not you. Maybe you should spend some time getting to know Jesus personally instead of this speculation? After all, Jesus Himself prophecied that in the last day, some will hear Him say "I never knew you". And that, unlike lacking correct knowledge, is fatal..

We must settle this point first. Do you believe that what the apostles and prophets wrote are authoritative and definitive? Or is that included in the pile of questionable material from "fallible humans"?

The answer to this will determine whether we are doing objective study and research, or merely exchanging subjective ideas.

If the Bible is authoritative, then we go to the book to find answers. If not, then we are free to make any assertion without the burden substantiating it with anything more than "God told me so." How shall we proceed with our discussion?

Yes, and no.

Yes. I do believe that the word of God was written through these prophets and apostles.

No. I don't think it has all the answers or tells all the information God wants us to have. For if it were the only piece of information we needed, why would we need even one of Sister White's books? Or why would we need anybody else to read the bible and tell us what it means? I could just do it myself.
I think the bible is a great place to start, to draw our inspiration, to get to know God. But there's a lot more to life on this planet then just knowing God. We have to eat, sleep, have jobs, interact with other people, build transportation, fight disease. And there arent' always answers in the bible for these things. So, God has given us other ways to learn from Him, and of Him, one way being Sister White. I don't think that she's the only one God has spoken to or given valuable information to. There are other ways to learn, and grow closer to God, and still repent, and love thy Father.

So, yes, the bible is authoritative and definitive on the subjects of the time. They don't however, give answers to how to deal with MRSA, or global warming, or the mites that kill the honey bee's.

So let's get the right info from there, but then also pull our heads out of our bible's when it's time to look other places to see God's light as well. One great example is nature. Lion's are and always were, meat eaters; and zebra's and a whole host of other savannah animals developed camoflouge to hide and flee from those big cats. No, the bible doesn't say lions ate sheep, but it sure hint's at it when it say's, and in the new heaven the lion would lay down with the lamb, something so vastly different than what goes on currently. And then yes, you could infer that there will be no animal eating in heaven, but once again, it does not say that or not. So really, we don't know, just like a lot of things about God, and His plans.

Now I also feel that while the bible is the authority of biblical times, it can also be used in these modern times. There are still(and always will be) ton's of lesson's to be learned, as well as the best source for getting to know God. But I don't think we should find the answer to everything there. We should use it as a resource, or a measurement tool, or like in a clinical trial when you have a "control group." I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water, but I do want to clarify that bath water before throwing it out, so as to keep the baby and any other valuable resources floating around in that water that we might not have recognized at first.

So let's continue with the learning process, I'm moved by this site more everyday. Notice how often I'm here, and you all seem to be a lot more "chatty" at well, that's great. I think it's just what God want's, us learning more about Him.

And I want to be as objective as possible, believe me, that's what I'm all about. That's part of the beauty of so many great minds here, lots of people thinking about the same thing, looking at it from different angles. It's like "rounds" at a teaching hospital. You have not just one doctor looking after a patient, you have a whole group going aroud, talking about the patient, looking at the latest lab reports, talking about the various implications of said reports, thinking of diagnosis's, mulling over the treatments, and discussing the latest results of the clinical trials going on. Medicine is much like bible study, I think that's why the SDA's latched onto it so strongly. It's just like getting to know God; as we know ourselves, we know God, since he resides within so many of us.

So yeah, let's be objective, armed with real facts, and use critical thinking skills, and look at things from different viewpoints, mull over the treatments for our broken souls, and use each others help to stand up for the Lord when so many other's forsake Him.

I'm ready to compare Christ's character to ours. Shall we move on?

Before we can move on, we must agree on our sources of truth.

Since the Bible is "authoritative and definitive," if I say, "God created man in His own image" (Genesis 1:27), do we agree that the statement is incontrovertible truth? We might not understand it in its fullest sense, but it is true nonetheless. Agreed?

But your comments bring another point to light.



If the Bible does not have all the answers and information, what grounds do you have for questioning my belief that being created in God's image includes the physical, mental, and spiritual nature? It may very well be one of those pieces of info that God reveals through avenues other than the Bible. Therefore, since you believe that the Bible is not comprehensive in its pronouncements, you have no business questioning my belief just because the Bible "does not say that." In light of that, will you now accept my stated belief?

Going beyond that, what if I showed you that my belief is based on some EGW quotes? Will you then accept it as truth?

Ah, no; for Isaiah refers to the appearance of the Son of man on earth, and Hebrews refers to the Son of God before he came to earth, with - as Jesus said in Jn 17:5 - "the glory which I had with thee before the world was".

Such condescension!

By "Man Jesus" earlier I was emphasing his humanity, not dispensing with his divinity, and your references to his transfiguration are indeed dramatic.

As for prophecy's infallibility next to prophets themselves, Jesus' fallibility is testament to his human ability to sin - an ability abiding alongside his divinity in his body; while the prophetic gift is only necessary for the age of sin in this world, during which time prophetic messages of Biblical callibre are from God, are they not? - rendering all of the same authority...which Graeme appears to differ on, even in NT times.

Jonah's message didn't fall, did it? It was a conditional message: 40 days to repent or be destroyed, and God honoured their response to his warning: it's much the same warning in the 3rd angel's message of Rev 14:9-11, which calls for a choice - just as the Ninevites had a choice.

Yes, my brother, Jesus started with divine glory and moved next to revelation of divine virtues with us sinners on earth, so that - as Tom likes to emphasise from his p.o.v. - we can understand God's holy character revealed in his glory (and not be confused by alternative errors such as tyrant, etc), and relate to God's truth manifested in his personal approach to us: relate to God personally through Jesus.

Children understand love and compassion - truths about God: do not understanding God's truths and relating to God personally because of them go together, and guarding against false presentations & understandings of God, altogether as we serve Jesus our Elder Brother and God our Saviour?

I'm sorry for appearing generally to offend you with my earlier post's comments - which I hope I've helped to clarify as not departing from the gospel, and especially this quote from me about Adam which may have been too flippant: I was emphasising the pragmtic relationship between Adam and God's Son by way of noticeable visual similarity between them, as Adam would recognise a connection - Creator/creature - between them as he was a son of God was in God's own image. Retaining that attitude of subservience to Jesus is part of knowing him, not so, which those who indeed "never knew" Jesus shall be told to their face?

Again, I'm sorry for raising your ire: Has that helped assuage your anger?

The title of this thread indicates it is concerned with comparing our character to Jesus´character. One thing is for sure - Jesus is a human in heaven. He looks like us. But the more important question is - do we behave like Him? John 14:12 suggests that to believe in Jesus is to behave like Jesus. COL 69 says that when the body of Christ perfectly reproduces the character of Christ the end will come, Jesus will return to return us according to our words and works.

The questrion isn´t - Can our character be compared to Jesus´character. The ultimate question is - How long will we continue to come short of the glory God, how much longer will we delay the Second Advent? The honor of God is tied to us perfecting Christian character.

I disagree that the honor of God is tied to us perfecting Christian character. Where does God require those born under sin to live perfectly. If God is waiting for a perfect end time people before He can return then we all are in trouble. Why should God have to prove that someone born under sin can keep the law perfectly when that was never His claim nor His intention? I understand that His law is perfect and that His created beings should live in perfect harmony with it because it is the best way for us to live and only for our good. God would want to show that the law can be kept and that it is good, but not necessarily that those with sinful propensity could never sin. Anyone listen to the audio of Knights presentation from the QOD weekend?

Aaron, what is your take on the great controversy motif? What is at stake? What are the issues? What is God waiting for? Why didn't the GC end at the cross? Why hasn't Jesus returned yet and put an end to sin? Why are we still waiting for Jesus to restore Paradise Lost?

Oh I agree that charges have been made by Satan against the Godhead concerning whether He is loving and just. I just don’t think a fallen world being able to keep the law perfectly is one of the charges. What I think happens when a person is converted is they from then on wish to love others more then self. Wishing is a far step from actually accomplishing. Before becoming a Christian your more concerned with your own well being then with anyone else. Character perfection would be working towards always loving others more then self but not actually seeing that happen until He returns and changes us

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Here is a something posed to the panel during the QOD weekend. Which side can you agree with more?

“One side says Jesus came to prove that living a perfect obedient life is possible. He came in fallen human nature just like ours to remove our excuse and give us an example, to show that we can do it too if we are faithful and pray hard as Jesus did

The other side says Jesus came to save us sinners and that requires that He be the divine son of God who provided a sinless substitutionary sacrifice. The only thing we can do is trust in Him.

One says I need a small Christ because if you make him big how can I be like him. The other says I need a big Christ because if we make him too small how can he save me.”

I don’t know why Jesus hasn’t returned. I think one reason could be the gospel hasn’t reached the entire world.

Aaron

It depends on what you mean by "live perfectly." If you mean that the righteous requirements of the law will be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, that's found in Romans 8. If you mean that those of us who died to sin are no longer under its dominion, and we cannot live in it anymore, that's found in Romans 6. If you mean that whoever is born of God does not sin, and cannot sin, that's found in 1Jn 3.