Paul wrote - I haven't attained perfection yet, but let those of us who are perfect press toward the mark of our high calling.

Philippians 3:12-16
3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

But then later on Paul wrote - I have finished my course, I have kept the faith, hereafter a crown of righteousness awaits me.

2 Timothy 4:6-8
4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Question: what is Paul talking about? Are we to assume that he was referring to unconquered known defects of character when he wrote - I haven't attained or apprehended perfection yet? but that between writing the Philippians and Timothy he had finally reached the mark? Or does he mean something entirely different?

Please, please when you quote the Bible or SOP include a personal note as to how you believe they support your convictions, no matter how obvious it may seem to you. Thank you.

I get the feeling from the way this passage in Philippians has been cited throughout the various threads in this forum that most of us are under the impression that Paul would have us understand that he was still struggling with certain unnamed defective traits of character.

Is that what you believe? If so, would you be willing to hazard saying which imperfections he was guilty of between writing Philippians and Second Timothy? Which moral sins did he finally overcome by the time he wrote his last epistle?

Or does this Scripture mean something entirely different?

I think that Paul felt as perfect as Daniel. He recognized that he was a sinner, saved by grace, and he recognized that there were things that he might like to do better. On the other hand I think that Paul was in tune with the mind of God and had experience having every thought brought into subjection to the mind of God. He was a perfect sinner in Christ.

I like how you phrased that, Greg. Since we're all sinners - THIS is the level of perfection I think He wants from us!

To love Jesus, to follow Him, and to do the things He asks of us. In that order.

I know a number of people that even though they have their noses buried in the Bible and can pull up just about any verse from memory, they bicker over minute aspects of theology. I'd say that loving Jesus is noticably absent in a lot of those cases...

Being a fairly new Christian, I'm making Jesus #1 before I get into huge (and not terribly productive) arguments over one tiny aspect of law.

If I serve Jesus as my master and do my best to follow His teachings, my failings won't be critical. Like you put it, we too, can be "perfect" sinners.

So, did we ever answer the question? Are we to assume that the growth Paul expected to experience had something to do with laying aside some known or unknown defect of character?

What about Jesus? He began perfect and then He became perfect. Heb 2:10 and 5:9. Obviously, since Jesus never sinned, "going on to perfection" has nothing to do with overcoming "dead works." Heb 6:1.

Doesn't it make sense then to conclude that Paul was talking about maturing as Christian when he wrote that he hadn't attained perfection yet? In fact, will we ever say throughout eternity that we have fully attained unto perfection? Or is eternity long enough to exhaust our ability to grow more and more like Jesus?

If we will continue to go on unto perfection throughtout the ceaseless ages of eternity, and it will have nothing to do with becoming less and less sinful, why then do we assume it has anything to do with sin now? If Jesus is our example of what it's like for born again believers to go on unto perfection, how then can we say it has to do with becoming less sinful?

If Jesus began perfect and then became perfect, why wouldn't it also be that way for people who have crucified self and been born again? Isn't that what Rom 6, Gal 5 and 1 John 3 is all about? I mean, being dead to sin and awake and alive to Christ and His righteousness! And then going on to perfection the same as Jesus did!

Word search “Paul attained” - 42 SOP hits

1. {AA 314.3} 22. {5T 223.3}
2. {AA 562.1} 23. {TSA 9.2}
3. {CT 66.3} 24. {TMK 130.2}
4.{AG 273.5} 25. {PUR, June 29, 1905 par. 9}
5. {GW92 307.1} 26. {RH, March 15, 1887 par. 11}
6. {GW 143.2-4} 27. {RH, October 31, 1899 par. 19}
7. {GC88 469.1} 28. {ST, January 11, 1883 par. 2}
8. {GC88 470.1-3} 29. {ST, July 7, 1887 par. 9}
9. & 10. {GC 469.1- 172.1} 30. {ST, May 26, 1890 par. 4}
11 {HP 143.1-5} 31. {ST, September 22, 1890 par. 5}
12. {LS 302.1 -304.1} 32. {ST, May 23, 1895 par. 7}
13.{LHU 149.1 - 6} 33. {ST, May 23, 1895 par. 8}
14. {LHU 200.1 - 8} 34. {ST, May 23, 1895 par. 9}
15. {Mar 54.1 - 5} 35. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 6}
16. {Mar 231.1 - 4} 36.{YI, November 8, 1894 par. 2}
17. {NL 13.2} (Ch 1. Conversions real or fake.) 37. {YI, March 3, 1908 par. 13}
18. {RC 48.1 - 7} 38. {PH001 7.3}
19. {6BC 1106.6 1107.6} 39. {4MR 273.2}
20. {7BC 903.1 - 2} 40. {7MR 100.4}
21. {SD 200.1 - 201.6} 41. {16MR 275.2}
42. {KC 76.2}
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Chap. 124 - Perfection Through Christ's Merits (hit # 24)

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48. {TMK 130.1}
Christ presents before us the highest perfection of Christian character, which throughout our lifetime we should aim to reach. . . . Concerning this perfection Paul writes: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after. . . . I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12-15). . . . {TMK 130.2}

How can we reach the perfection specified by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ--our Great Teacher? Can we meet His requirement and attain to so lofty a standard? We can, else Christ would not have enjoined us to do so. He is our righteousness. In His humanity He has gone before us and wrought out for us perfection of character. We are to have the faith in Him that works by love and purifies the soul. Perfection of character is based upon that which Christ is to us. If we have constant dependence on the merits of our Saviour, and walk in His footsteps, we shall be like Him, pure and undefiled. {TMK 130.3}

Our Saviour does not require impossibilities of any soul. He expects nothing of His disciples that He is not willing to give them grace and strength to perform. He would not call upon them to be perfect if He had not at His command every perfection of grace to bestow on the ones upon whom He would confer so high and holy a privilege. He has assured us that He is more willing to give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him than parents are to give good gifts to their children. {TMK 130.4}

Our work is to strive to attain in our sphere of action the perfection that Christ in His life on the earth attained in every phase of character. He is our example. In all things we are to strive to honor God in character. In falling day by day so far short of the divine requirements, we are endangering our soul's salvation. We need to understand and appreciate the privilege with which Christ invests us, and to show our determination to reach the highest standard. We are to be wholly dependent on the power that He has promised to give us. {TMK 130.5}

Chap. 125 - The Science of Holiness

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1 Thess. 3:13. {TMK 131.1}

The ethics inculcated by the gospel acknowledge no standard but the perfection of God's mind, God's will. God requires from His creatures conformity to His will. Imperfection of character is sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole. Every one who receives Christ as his personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. This is the science of holiness. . . . {TMK 131.2}

The glory of God is His character. . . . This character was revealed in the life of Christ. That He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. Constantly He beheld the character of God; constantly He revealed this character to the world. Christ desires His followers to reveal in their lives this same character. {TMK 131.3}

Before the world, God is developing us as living witnesses to what men and women may become through the grace of Christ. We are enjoined to strive for perfection of character. The divine Teacher says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48). Would Christ tantalize us by requiring of us an impossibility? Never, never! What an honor He confers upon us in urging us to be holy in our sphere, as the Father is holy in His sphere! He can enable us to do this, for He declares, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Matt. 28:18). This unlimited power it is our privilege to claim. . . . {TMK 131.4}

God works with those who properly represent His character. Through them His will is done on earth as it is done in heaven. . . . {TMK 131.5}

It is our lifework to be reaching forward to the perfection of Christian character, striving constantly for conformity to God's will. Day by day we are to press upward, ever upward, until of us it can be said, "Ye are complete in him" (Co. 2:10). {TMK 131.6}

*****************************
(hit # 35)
June 3, 1903 "Walk in the Light."

Mrs. E. G. White.

The Christian pilgrim is not left to walk in darkness. Jesus leads the way. Those who follow Him walk in the sunshine of His presence. The path that the pilgrim treads is clear and well defined. Christ's righteousness goes before him--the righteousness that makes possible the good works characterizing the life of every true Christian. God is his rearward. He walks in the light as Christ is in the light. As he travels onward in the Christian journey, he combines faith with earnest endeavor to win others to accompany him. Constantly receiving the light of Christ's presence, constantly he reflects this light to others in words of encouragement and deeds of self-denial. He bears the sign of obedience to God's law, which distinguishes him from those who are not following the pathway that leads to life eternal. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 1}

The Christian pilgrim can not be sour, gloomy, depressed. It is a misrepresentation of the Christian faith to be surly, unreasonable, or sour in spirit. He who walks in the light cherishes no such spirit, but, by conscientious, consistent behaviour, heeds the apostle's admonition to provoke his fellow pilgrims to love and good works. Those who have a careful regard for one another's needs, those who speak words of kindly sympathy, those who give thoughtful assistance to others, to help them in their work, encourage not only their fellow men, but themselves as well, because they thus become laborers together with God. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 2}

If it were not for the light that is given us from above, we could not follow step by step in the footprints of Jesus. Christ came to this world in order that we might have this light. He is "the true light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." He, the Majesty of heaven, the Son of the living God, the One equal with the Father, came to our world to stand by the side of fallen beings, through His sacrifice giving value to humanity. Lower and still lower He stepped in humiliation, until it was impossible for Him to descend any lower. For our sake He suffered and died. While hanging upon the cross, He exclaimed, "It is finished." He had accomplished His work for us; He had become the propitiation for our sins; He had made it possible for us to be accepted of God through faith in the atoning merits of the Crucified One. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 3}

If from the beginning of our Christian experience we had walked in the counsel of God, many more would have been converted to the Saviour. But often crooked paths have been made. Let us make straight paths, lest the lame be turned out of the way. Let no one follow a crooked path that some one else has made; for thus he would not only go astray himself, but would make this crooked path plainer for some one else to follow. Dear reader, determine that as for yourself, you will walk in the path of obedience. Know for a certainty that you are standing under the broad shield of Omnipotence. Realize that the characteristics of Jehovah must be revealed in your life, and that in you must be accomplished a work that will mould your character after the divine similitude. Yield yourself to the guidance of Him who is Head over all. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 4}

We are doing a work for the judgment. Let us be learners of Jesus. We need His guidance every moment. At every step we should inquire, "Is this the way of the Lord?" not, "Is this the way of the man who is over me?" We are to be concerned only as to whether we are walking in the way of the Lord. Unconsciously every true follower of the Master will say, "Are there not but twelve hours in the day? and am I not working at the close of the day? I must walk in the light as one of the children of light. I must lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset, and run with patience the race that is set before me. I am striving for a crown of glory that fadeth not away." {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 5}

To "walk in the light" means to resolve to exercise thought to exert will-power, in an earnest endeavor to represent Christ in sweetness of character. It means to put away all gloom. Let no one rest satisfied simply in saying, "I am a child of God." Are you beholding Jesus, and by beholding, becoming changed into His likeness? To "walk in the light" means advancement and progress in spiritual attainments. Paul declared, "Not as tho I had already attained, neither were already perfect: but . . . forgetting those things which are behind," constantly beholding the Pattern, I reach "forth unto those things which are before." {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 6}

To "walk in the light" means to "walk uprightly," to walk "in the way of the Lord," to walk by faith," to "walk in the Spirit." to "walk in the truth," to "walk in love," to "walk in newness of life." It is "perfecting holiness in the fear of God." {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 7}

What a terrible thing it is to darken the pathway of others by bringing shadow and gloom upon ourselves! Let each one take heed to himself. Charge not upon others your defects of character. Talk light; walk in the light. "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all." Study not how to please self. Lose sight of self, and behold the multitudes perishing in their sins. Gather to your souls the courage that can come only from the Light of the world. Forgetting self, help the many who are within reach around you. Talk faith, and your faith will increase. Cease lamenting. Work in Christ's lines. With loving endeavor strive to please Him. His excellence will help you to be Christlike. Ever stand ready to lift up the hands that hang down, and to strengthen the feeble knees. Shine as lights in the world, attracting others by the brightness of Christ's glory revealed through your good works. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 8}

God will honor and uphold every true-hearted, earnest soul who is seeking to walk before Him in the perfection of Christ's grace. He will never leave nor forsake one humble, trembling follower of His. He will work in the hearts of those who receive Him, making His children pure and holy, by His rich grace qualifying them to be laborers together with Him. With keen sanctified perception they will appreciate the strength of His promises, and appropriate them, not because of any worthiness of their own, but because by living faith they avail themselves of the benefits of Christ's sacrifice, and receive the robe of His righteousness. {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 9}

My fellow traveler in the Christian way, as you walk in the light, pray, simply trusting in Jesus your Redeemer. Walk so that your life will reflect rays of light to others. Confide in the love of Jesus, and you will have grace to save perishing souls. Your path will be as the path of the just,--a "shining light that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." {ST, June 3, 1903 par. 10}

Edward, praise God for those awesome and inspiring quotations. It is just so amazing what God can do for those who are completely surrendered and submitted to the Holy Spirit of promise.

Did you notice that she never once said that the gift of perfection is available only after years of failing and falling? It's ours now if we will have Jesus! True, we begin as perfect babes in Christ, just as Jesus began a perfect baby, but we do not begin perfectly mature in the fruits of the Spirit, just like Jesus did not begin perfectly mature. We have the rest of eternity to mature and to become more and more like sweet Jesus. Thank you Lord.

When Paul wrote - "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after... I press toward the mark" - what did he mean? Phil 3:12,14.

1. Did he mean he still has certain unknown moral imperfections yet to lay aside?
2. Or did he mean he still slips in and out of known sin?
3. Or did he mean he is still in the process of maturing in the fruits of the Spirit?
4. Or did he mean something else?

Also, in what way is Jesus an example of this statement by Paul? Or can we apply this quote to Jesus while He was here on earth?

How do these quotes help us answer the questions I've raised in this thread?

TMK 130.2
Christ presents before us the highest perfection of Christian character, which throughout our lifetime we should aim to reach. . . . Concerning this perfection Paul writes: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after. . . . I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12-15).

AA 551.1
"Let us not love in word," the apostle writes, "but in deed and in truth." The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within. It is the atmosphere of this love surrounding the soul of the believer that makes him a savor of life unto life and enables God to bless his work.

COL 384.2
Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within--when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart and is revealed in the countenance.

Question:
Is the "completeness of Christian character" available now? or must we spend most of our life in pursuit of it? while in the meantime we are not a savor of life unto life, and devoid of the sunshine of heaven?

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike wrote:

Question: what is Paul talking about? Are we to assume that he was referring to unconquered known defects of character when he wrote - I haven't attained or apprehended perfection yet? but that between writing the Philippians and Timothy he had finally reached the mark? Or does he mean something entirely different?
Unquote.

Paul is talking that he is justified by his faith even tough he is not perfect in character. He is justified by his faith because he lives for God, he gave himself to be lead by the Spirit, and he lived by faith.

But speaking of Character: “The Spirit is against the flesh and the flesh is against the Spirit, so, that you will keep doing the things that you do not want to do (evil). But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law” – Galatians 5:16-18.

That is saying, even though we are led by the Spirit, but that doesn’t make us the Spirit, because the Spirit is not us and we are not the Spirit. SIN of self-love is our character and the desire of the flesh is our nature, as long as we live in the flesh, we will follow it once upon a time. It is of course a “sin” to do what the flesh desire, but their “sin and transgression I will remember no more” because “you are under grace and not under the law.” The law cannot judge us because we are not under it jurisdiction and God will remember our sins no more.

This is a life by faith, a life without the law, a life led by the Spirit, trusting God completely that He will lead us to all righteousness and holy life by changing imparting His love in our heart as fruit of the Spirit that fulfils the demands of the law.

So is God’s justification, it is a justification by faith without the law (Romans 3:21,22).

Paul has reached the mark, in Jesus Christ, by his faith with an imperfect character because he still has the body of the flesh with it desires in it (that need to be abandon and change with a new body at Christ 2nd coming), but what important is, that he has the love of God that seeks no self as fruit of the Spirit in his heart, enabling him and welcome him to enter heaven and live with all other beings that have no love for self, because there is no place in heaven for a man with selfish love.

In His love

James S.

How can Spirit-powered obedience abolish the law?

Mike.

How can Spirit-powered obedience abolish the law?

Unquote.

Obedience to what?

The Spirit obeys nothing, He does as He pleases, but His deeds are perfect because it is by love, and love is His nature.

Men’s obedience needs a model or pattern to obey such as the 10 commandments. But their deeds of obedience is “dirty rag”, because it is his desire to obey and his desire is the desire of the flesh that is under the power of SIN (self-love). Thus, his deeds are just the deeds of the flesh, based on self-love that is his nature.

You are either lead by the Spirit or by your self, there is no cooperation work between both, as the Spirit desire is against the flesh desire (Galatians 5:17), so, the Spirit could never empowered you to live by the flesh, including in keeping the law.

“If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law” – Galatians 5:18.

That says, if you are lead by the Spirit, you are not under the obligation to keep the law, to be under it judgment and condemnation.

In His love

James S.

James,

Your thoughts completely confuse me. I don't understand how the Holy Spirit can empower us to live in harmony with the law while at the same time we are not obeying the law. What?

Mike.

You still don't get it.

A believer who are not under the law, have no obligation whatsoever to keep and obey the law, because there is no law for him.

But this believer lives by faith according to the Spirit, and he has the fruit of the Spirit that is in harmony with the principle of the law "love that seeks no self."

"Love does no harm to his fellowman, because love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13; 10)."

This believer has "deeds" of love as fruit of the Spirit, not because of obeying and keeping any law. Although there is no law (10 Commandments), he lives according to it principle.

That means, although there is no law, but he didn't live according to the flesh that is against the principle of the law and breaks the 10 Commandments engraved on stone tablets.

But a believer who keeps the law would only stand against the principle of the law that could not be gained through keeping the law. No wonder, the whole world become guilty and is under God's judgment as no one is right before God and His holy law, by his law obedience his SIN was revealed and become more sinful (Romans 3:19,20; 7:7,13). No one could perform what the law demands (love) as this could only happen when some one is led by the Spirit.

But the Spirit could only work and perform this “love” to change man’s nature of “self-love” ONLY when he trust God and surrender himself completely to what the Spirit desire, and not to live according to the flesh that includes obedience in keeping the 10 Commandments.

Logically, when the Spirit made us in harmony with the law, there is no need for us to keep and obey any law even the 10 Commandments, because keeping the law is OUR DESIRE (the desire of the flesh) not the Spirit desire. What the Spirit desires is leading you, making you in harmony with the principle of the law through a change of character, not through obedience to the law.

“It is God who works in you to will and to do” (Philippians 2:13).

When you want to do what you will or desire, you are living by the flesh! And that includes keeping and obeying the law.

The Spirit desire is against the flesh desire (Galatians 5:16), so it is impossible that the Spirit empower a believer to keep the law, which is the desire of the flesh. The truth is “The Spirit empower a believer to deny the flesh, self denial.”

In His love

James S.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

2 Thessalonians 1:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

All humans belivers or not are required by God to obey Him flawlessly. It is their duty.

The Christian has went through the change of heart, whereby they desire to obey that which is their duty to do. Now they are connected to Jesus Christ by His promises and hold to those promises by living faith that operates to put those promises to their implied & intended use.

The non Christian is obligated to obey God equally so, but is not willing and lives apart from partnership with Jesus Christ and partaking of His nature through His claimed promises.

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

James, I'm still not sure how being in harmony with the law does away with the law. But I realize you are not saying that born again believers violate the principles of the law.

Edward, thank you pointing out how the law requires of all mankind, whether saved or lost, perfection of character, and that this promise is possible only in Jesus. Amen!

But what about Paul's statements quoted at the beginning of this thread?

Question: what is Paul talking about? Are we to assume that he was referring to unconquered known defects of character when he wrote - I haven't attained or apprehended perfection yet? but that between writing the Philippians and Timothy he had finally reached the mark? Or does he mean something entirely different?

Mike.

James, I'm still not sure how being in harmony with the law does away with the law. But I realize you are not saying that born again believers violate the principles of the law.

Unquote.

Born again believers who live by the Spirit will live in harmony with the principle of the law, because love is fruit of the Spirit and love fulfils the demands of the law. So to say, their deeds will not violate the letter of the law.

Living in harmony with the law does away the keeping and obedience to the law, because this harmony is not “our own” deeds but “fruit of the Spirit” or the “willing and the doing of God” (Philippians 2:13), not our will.

If it is our will (to be in harmony with the law by keeping and obey it), it is the desire of the flesh and the deeds are deeds of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21). This happens because our will is under dominion of SIN, which is love for self. And whatever “good deeds” that was born from self is not good enough for God and His holy law as these deeds was based on self-love, because what is good before God and His law is “love that seeks no self.”

All men are under SIN (Romans 3:12) and all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), this makes all our “good deeds” including obedience to the law is evil before God and His holy law (Isaiah 64:6).

This SIN of self love in us (Romans 7:17,20) makes all our deeds is sin as it is against the principle of the law “love that seeks no self.” This SIN in us bore fruits of sins, or deeds of the flesh.

Only through living by faith and according to the Spirit, a believer might have this “love that seeks no self” as fruit of the Spirit that fulfils the righteous demands of the law (Romans 8:4). And if he lives by faith according to the Spirit, he must put away the law.

“The law is not of faith…” (Galatians 3:12); the law requires obedience and it doesn’t care you have faith or not. Before faith come the law functions as a school master, but when you have faith in Christ now, you don’t need the law to supervise you any longer; “25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law” (Galatians 3:23-24).

If a believer still needs the law to supervise him and teach him to behave and live according to the law, in a sense, he is not living by faith, because faith is trusting and believing to something unseen and doesn’t need proof (Hebrews 11:1). And by looking to the letter of the law, keeping and obeying it, makes some one an unbeliever.

In His love

James S.

“Whatsoever that is not of faith is SIN” (Romans 14:23); because the law is not of faith, then keeping it is a sin. As living by faith is in contrary with living by the flesh that is under dominion of SIN, so, without faith, our deeds comes from SIN or based on self-love. In other word, whatever is not fruit of the Spirit (through living by faith) are deeds of SIN.

“But if you lived by the Spirit, you are not under the law” (Galatians 5:18), that is the same as “but SIN will not be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace” (Romans 6:14).

Combining it gives a meaning; living by the Spirit, you are not under the jurisdiction of the law, which is to keep and obey the law. And if you are not under the law, SIN will not be your master, because without a will to do something of yourself (like keeping the law), SIN is powerless. “Without the law SIN is dead (Romans 7:8).

In other words; if “you” want to keep and obey the law, SIN has the chance to work in you all kinds of covetous desires, it will master you and dominate you. “For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.” and “But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead; For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death” (Romans 7:5,8,11).

God wants to change your character of self-love to His character that loves no self, and He did this through the work of His Spirit in a believer’s heart that live by the Spirit. He could not do this in a believer heart that wants to do his own will such as keeping the law, because by being under the law, SIN of self-love will ruled in his heart and gives no room to the Spirit.

Let’s Christ be our focus and He will lead us in faith and brings our faith to perfection.

In His love

James S.

James, thank you for further clarifying your point. You make a valid point, but it was hard for me at first to grasp it. It is true, any obedience rendered outside a saving relationship with Jesus is "filthy rags." Keeping the law apart from partaking of the divine nature comes short of the glory of God. What do you think about the following quote, especially the highlighted sentences?

Desires of Ages, page 466
Every soul that refuses to give himself to God is under the control of another power. He is not his own. He may talk of freedom, but he is in the most abject slavery. He is not allowed to see the beauty of truth, for his mind is under the control of Satan. While he flatters himself that he is following the dictates of his own judgment, he obeys the will of the prince of darkness. Christ came to break the shackles of sin-slavery from the soul. "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" sets us "free from the law of sin and death." Rom. 8:2. {DA 466.3}

In the work of redemption there is no compulsion. No external force is employed. Under the influence of the Spirit of God, man is left free to choose whom he will serve. In the change that takes place when the soul surrenders to Christ, there is the highest sense of freedom. The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. True, we have no power to free ourselves from Satan's control; but when we desire to be set free from sin, and in our great need cry out for a power out of and above ourselves, the powers of the soul are imbued with the divine energy of the Holy Spirit, and they obey the dictates of the will in fulfilling the will of God. {DA 466.4}

The only condition upon which the freedom of man is possible is that of becoming one with Christ. "The truth shall make you free;" and Christ is the truth. Sin can triumph only by enfeebling the mind, and destroying the liberty of the soul. Subjection to God is restoration to one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man. The divine law, to which we are brought into subjection, is "the law of liberty." James 2:12. {DA 466.5}

What about Paul's statements quoted at the beginning of this thread?

What is he talking about? 1) Are we to assume that he was referring to unconquered known defects of character when he wrote - I haven't attained or apprehended perfection yet? 2) And that between writing the Philippians and Timothy he had finally reached the mark? 3) Or does he mean something entirely different?

COL 384.2 - "Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within--when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart and is revealed in the countenance."

Is the "completeness of Christian character" available now?

[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Mike.

To commend on your post dated April 23, 2002 12:31 PM ;

I would say that I talk the same with EGW.

We are either under control of our own (under dominion of SIN) or under control of the Spirit if we have faith in Christ and surrender our self to Him by denying the flesh.

And if Christ sets us free from SIN, why would He instruct us to keep and obey His law that would only put us back again under dominion of SIN and through our law keeping our SIN is revealed? It doesn’t make sense!

In His love

James S.

James, please see my comments regarding this issue on the Bible Study thread entitled - "My Grace Is Sufficient For You."

While it's true that Christ sets us free from sin, and from being "under the law", the Bible still speaks in terms of faithful believers keeping the commandments, and the law, in many places. If it's good enough for the Bible writers to speak in such terms, it should certainly be good enough for us.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." -- 1 John 5:3.

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." -- Revelation 14:12.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." -- Revelation 22:14.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." -- Romans 3:31.

Even in Old Testament times, believers were saved by grace through faith; though they were expected to keep the Law (same as we are).

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." -- Galatians 3:7.

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed." -- Hebrews 11:8.

"Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." -- Genesis 26:5.

James is crystal clear on the obligation of New Testament believers to keep the Ten Commandments, and uses that phraseology:

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For He that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." -- James 2:10-12.

God's government is based upon His law, which in turn is based upon His character. Of course we must obey the law; to do otherwise is to sin. "Sin is the transgression of the law." -- 1 John 3:4.

And of course obeying God's law is impossible in our own strength:

"Without Me ye can do nothing." -- John 15:5.
"Without faith it is impossible to please Him." -- Hebrews 11:6.

John.
"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." -- 1 John 5:3.
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." -- Revelation 14:12.
"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." -- Revelation 22:14.
Unquote.

When you have the “love of God” in your heart as fruit of the Spirit, your “deeds” are in harmony with the law, although it is not ‘you” who keep and obey the law but Christ that imparts His ‘love” in your heart through the work of the Spirit, and this “love” fulfils the righteous demands of the law.

Justified by faith, judge by works. Faith without works is dead, but this works are “the willing and the doing of God.”

Quote.
"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." -- Romans 3:31.
Unquote.

Faith doesn’t nullify the law, because faith has nothing to do with keeping the law as “the law is not of faith.” Faith deals with Christ, focusing on Him, trusting in Him, surrender your will to Him and He will do the rest. He has saved us and He is the One that maintains our safety, if we allow Him.

But the law will exist forever as a symbol of men inability to keep and obey it as it is too holy, right and just for sinful men. It is God’s standard of His heavenly Kingdom where no one could cope, so that, righteousness might be given freely through faith in Christ apart from the law.

James 2:10-12 is not telling us to keep and obey the law as a standard for living that makes you become under the law, but he just gives a comparison for those who said they have love but shows favoritism, they break the law.

James 2:8-13.
8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[1] you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[2] also said, "Do not murder."[3] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Unquote.

Clearly James was saying that we must keep the royal law “love your neighbor as yourself.” And he understood that this kind of love is the fruit of faith, fruit of the Spirit, because he said that faith without works (absence of works), is a dead faith.

Speak and act as those who are going to be judge by the law that gives freedom, and that is not the 10 Commandments, because keeping it make you become a slave of SIN, SIN is your master. But “the love of God”, which is the principle of His holy law will sets you free from the SIN of self-love, now you may love your fellow man.

Quote.
God's government is based upon His law, which in turn is based upon His character. Of course we must obey the law; to do otherwise is to sin. "Sin is the transgression of the law." -- 1 John 3:4.
Unquote.

You may do your best in keeping and obeying the law, the result is only “deeds of the flesh”, the law reveals your SIN, judge you and condemn you. Breaking the law is sin, keeping the law is SIN.

In His love

James S.

James wrote:

"You may do your best in keeping and obeying the law, the result is only “deeds of the flesh”, the law reveals your SIN, judge you and condemn you. Breaking the law is sin, keeping the law is SIN."

The way you worded this paragraph is misleading - "Keeping the law is SIN." In order to avoid misunderstanding you may want to consider saying it this way - "Keeping the law apart from a saving relationship with Jesus is a sin."

What do you think?

What about Paul's statements quoted at the beginning of this thread? What is he talking about?

1) Are we to assume that he was referring to unconquered known defects of character when he wrote - I haven't attained or apprehended perfection yet?

2) And that between writing the Philippians and Timothy he had finally reached the mark?

3) Or does he mean something entirely different?

COL 384.2 - "Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within--when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart and is revealed in the countenance."

Is the "completeness of Christian character" available now? Or must we wait until after years of sinning and repenting?

Mike.

The way you worded this paragraph is misleading - "Keeping the law is SIN." In order to avoid misunderstanding you may want to consider saying it this way - "Keeping the law apart from a saving relationship with Jesus is a sin."
What do you think?
Unquote.

It is not my intention to mislead the forum readers, so allow me to clarify.

Breaking the law is sin (1 John 3:4), it is your own deeds that is against the law of God.

Keeping the law is SIN, when you keep the law the bible said; you are under the law! And whoever is under the law, SIN is his master (Romans 6:14). The opposite is “If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law” (Galatians 5:18).

Conclusion: keeping the law is SIN, it is deeds of the flesh, it is against a life led by the Spirit, it is a life without faith. But no wonder, because “the law is not of faith”. And our obedience to the law only exposed this SIN in us (Romans 3:20; 7:7).

Keeping the law is an expression of our desire that is under dominion of SIN, our self-love nature that is against God’s character “love that seeks no self”.

“Live by the Spirit and you will not follow the lust of the flesh” – Galatians 5:16.

“If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law” – Galatians 5:18.

“But SIN will not be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace” – Romans 6:14

Very clear, that living by the Spirit will sets us free from SIN of self love and the power of SIN that is the law. Keeping the law empowered SIN to work in us and makes us a slave of SIN, deeds of the flesh is the fruits.

Keeping the law is SIN, the law is not of faith and whatever is not of faith is SIN.

Whatever that is not fruit of the Spirit, comes from self that is under dominion of SIN (self-love). And to have fruit of the Spirit we must live by faith and that is not include an obligation for keeping the law.

In short, it is God that made our life in harmony with the law (Romans 8:4; Ezekiel 36:26,27; Galatians 5:22,23), we don’t need to keep the law and have no obligation whatsoever to the law.

Am I clarify my self, is my idea according to your phrase “Keeping the law apart from a saving relationship with Jesus is a sin"? What do you think?

In His love

James S.

"... we don’t need to keep the law and have no obligation whatsoever to the law."

This phrase is misleading. I believe it is better to say, "Legitimate law keeping is possible only in Jesus Christ."

Mike.

"... we don’t need to keep the law and have no obligation whatsoever to the law."
This phrase is misleading. I believe it is better to say, "Legitimate law keeping is possible only in Jesus Christ."
Unquote.

You phrase it well and correct.

But mine is not misleading if I add to that:” What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! (Romans 6:1,2). ‘You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love” (Galatians 5:13). “So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature” (Galatians 5:16).

The point is that a believer in Christ who is lead by the Spirit has a life or deeds in harmony with the law as fruits of the Spirit. In harmony with the law doesn’t mean that he keeps the law, but the Spirit that lives in him made him has a change of character, the love of God now ruled his heart and “love” is the fulfillment of the law.

What I want to stress is that a believer is not under the law, which means under the jurisdiction of the law to obey – to be judge and condemned for his guilt.

Am I right?

In His love

James S.

To say we are not under the jurisdiction of the law is also misleading. The law embraces the entire Universe. There's nowhere anybody can go to escape the law.

We can escape the condemnation of the law by being in Christ, but being in Christ does not mean that we are no longer obligated to keep the law. Keeping the law in Christ is the fruit of salvation.

Mike.

Faith is a private relationship with God, only between me and God.

I don’t need the law because I believe that if I live by the Spirit, God will make me have a character that is in harmony with the law by a change of heart. By living after the Spirit I will have the righteous demands of the law fulfilled in me (Romans 8:4), because love, which is fruit of the Spirit is now my nature, and this love is the fulfillment of the law.

But if I want to live by the law (keeping it), the bible said that SIN is my master, I am under dominion of SIN, that’s why no one would be justified by the law as the only thing the law can do is judging me and condemned me because of my SIN that was exposed through my obedience.

What Sin is it? Love for self! Sin of unbelief!

“The law is not of faith” and “whatever that is not of faith is SIN.”

Living by the law makes you under the law, under the obligation to keep and live by what the law requires. But the righteousness did not come from keeping the law, on the contrary it is a righteousness that was imparted by the Spirit. It is Christ imparted righteousness. And Christ imparted righteousness is fruit of the Spirit, a life by the Spirit. It doesn’t come from a life by the law.

Do you need the law when you live by the Spirit?

Have you enough faith in Christ to believe that he is the one leading you and made you have His righteousness without the law?

In His love

James S.