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Re: American Flag in the Sanctuary? [Re: asygo] #90756
07/26/07 03:48 AM
07/26/07 03:48 AM
Redfog  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 733
Michigan, USA
I just don't see it being a big deal either way, but I rather enjoy seeing flags where ever they are, and not just the US flag. If someone can show from the Bible or EGW that it is wrong to have one in the church then that would be the way to go but I don't think that is possible.

A cross in or on a church? Why is it wrong? The biggest objection I've ever heard is that it's a Catholic thing, like that is a reason to discard something.

Redfog


If at first you don't succeed.....destroy all evidence you ever tried.
Re: American Flag in the Sanctuary? [Re: Redfog] #90758
07/26/07 07:09 AM
07/26/07 07:09 AM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
When this question was posed to me last week, I didn't exactly know what to think because I had never considered it. But as I thought about it for a few minutes, I concluded that the flag should not be in the sanctuary.

My conclusion is far from being set in stone, but I have not seen a compelling reason to change my mind yet. Let me elaborate on my reasoning.

The sanctuary was set up by God to teach us His plan of salvation. Note these words from inspiration:
 Quote:
Yet important truths concerning the heavenly sanctuary and the great work there carried forward for man's redemption were to be taught by the earthly sanctuary and its services. {PP 357.2}

Thus in the work of Christ for our redemption, symbolized by the sanctuary service, "mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." Psalm 85:10. {PP 349.2}

The great truths set forth by the types in the service of the sanctuary were brought to view, and faith grasped the central object of all that system--the Lamb of God, that was to take away the sin of the world. {Ed 47.2}


It is clear that the purpose of the sanctuary transcends national ties; God's salvation is for all of humanity. Everything in the sanctuary pointed to Christ and His work. Hence, there were no nationalistic aspects in the sanctuary that God designed.

Were there flags in the way God set up the Israelites when He took them out of Egypt? Yes, there were. Each tribe had its own flag. But we should note that those flags were never used in the sanctuary or its services. The closest thing to a flag in the sanctuary would be the veils, representing Christ (Hebrews 10:20).

When we go into the sanctuary, our main goal should be to worship God in spirit and in truth. There should be nothing that draws our attention away from God and His work.

True, Old Glory stands for the great sacrifices that have been made to keep us free. But in light of the supreme sacrifice made by God to set us free, its glory fades into insignificance.

Yes, we should honor the flag and the principles for which it stands, and the people who sacrificed to establish and protect those principles. But not in the sanctuary, where we honor the Infinite.

WDYT?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: American Flag in the Sanctuary? [Re: asygo] #90762
07/26/07 01:46 PM
07/26/07 01:46 PM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
Growing up there was an American flag in the church and I just accepted it being there and never thought to question it. I suppose I have thought it was there to show that the church members were loyal citizens of the U. S. A.

Pathfinder clubs usually have an honor guard that leads the group into the sanctuary for Pathfinder Day programs.

As an adult I have gave the flag in the sanctuary, a passing question in my mind.

I have found it interesting that other churches are questioning this same thing and have read with some interest what they have to say.

I don't know if it should even be an isssue. It could become a distraction, like many other distractions to prevent us from getting into the word.

Having said that, I find that I have come up with a few questions for us SDA's.

How does displaying a national flag in the church sanctuary effect "present truth"?

Should it just be an issue for each local church to decide for themselves?

Just a thought; obviously, it is most likely that our churches wouldn't display the flag of the first beast, but what about the second beast of Rev 13?

Re: American Flag in the Sanctuary? [Re: Redfog] #90808
07/27/07 04:01 PM
07/27/07 04:01 PM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
 Originally Posted By: Redfog
I just don't see it being a big deal either way, but I rather enjoy seeing flags where ever they are, and not just the US flag. If someone can show from the Bible or EGW that it is wrong to have one in the church then that would be the way to go but I don't think that is possible.

A cross in or on a church? Why is it wrong? The biggest objection I've ever heard is that it's a Catholic thing, like that is a reason to discard something.

Redfog
Or is a cross a pre-catholic thing?

I am not on any crusade to remove crosses but, I do find it interesting to know the origins of something.

In the reality of it's origin symbolism, could "the cross", be the Tau of Tamuz, inherited from the Babylonian cult?

Last edited by crater; 07/27/07 09:16 PM. Reason: spelling
Re: American Flag in the Sanctuary? [Re: crater] #90810
07/27/07 06:20 PM
07/27/07 06:20 PM
Redfog  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 733
Michigan, USA
The origin of something has no bearing on somethings present usage. The cross is a symbol of Christianity, along with fish and doves. Are symbols wrong?

Redfog


If at first you don't succeed.....destroy all evidence you ever tried.
Re: American Flag in the Sanctuary? [Re: Redfog] #90811
07/27/07 07:19 PM
07/27/07 07:19 PM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
 Originally Posted By: Redfog
The origin of something has no bearing on somethings present usage. The cross is a symbol of Christianity, along with fish and doves. Are symbols wrong?

Redfog

I don't know, are they? Do man made symbols border on images?

I do know that; God used symbols to teach. We see it through the sanctuary system and elsewhere.

I find that in the study of the Lord's symbols, there is so much depth and meaning.

There was the brass serpent on a pole, I have to say I had some trouble with this symbol as, I associate serpent with the adversary. That is until Ellen cleared it up for me.

 Quote:
Nicodemus was being drawn to Christ. As the Saviour explained to him concerning the new birth, he longed to have this change wrought in himself. By what means could it be accomplished? Jesus answered the unspoken question: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." {DA 174.3}

Here was ground with which Nicodemus was familiar. The symbol of the uplifted serpent made plain to him the Saviour's mission. When the people of Israel were dying from the sting of the fiery serpents, God directed Moses to make a serpent of brass, and place it on high in the midst of the congregation. Then the word was sounded throughout the encampment that all who would look upon the serpent should live. The people well knew that in itself the serpent had no power to help them. It was a symbol of Christ. As the image made in the likeness of the
175
destroying serpents was lifted up for their healing, so One made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" was to be their Redeemer. Rom. 8:3. Many of the Israelites regarded the sacrificial service as having in itself virtue to set them free from sin. God desired to teach them that it had no more value than that serpent of brass. It was to lead their minds to the Saviour. Whether for the healing of their wounds or the pardon of their sins, they could do nothing for themselves but show their faith in the Gift of God. They were to look and live. {DA 174.4}

Those who had been bitten by the serpents might have delayed to look. They might have questioned how there could be efficacy in that brazen symbol. They might have demanded a scientific explanation. But no explanation was given. They must accept the word of God to them through Moses. To refuse to look was to perish. {DA 175.1}

Not through controversy and discussion is the soul enlightened. We must look and live. Nicodemus received the lesson, and carried it with him. He searched the Scriptures in a new way, not for the discussion of a theory, but in order to receive life for the soul. He began to see the kingdom of heaven as he submitted himself to the leading of the Holy Spirit. {DA 175.2}

There are thousands today who need to learn the same truth that was taught to Nicodemus by the uplifted serpent. They depend on their obedience to the law of God to commend them to His favor. When they are bidden to look to Jesus, and believe that He saves them solely through His grace, they exclaim, "How can these things be?" {DA 175.3}



The rock is another symbol used for Chirst through out scripture.

 Quote:
It was Christ, by the power of His word, that caused the refreshing stream to flow for Israel. "They drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4. He was the source of all temporal as well as spiritual blessings. Christ, the true Rock, was with them in all their wanderings. "They thirsted not when He led them through the deserts: He caused the waters to flow out of the rock for them; He clave the rock also, and the waters gushed out." "They ran in the dry places like a river." Isaiah 48:21; Psalm 105:41. {PP 411.2}

The smitten rock was a figure of Christ, and through this symbol the most precious spiritual truths are taught. As the life-giving waters flowed from the smitten rock, so from Christ, "smitten of God," "wounded for our transgressions," "bruised for our iniquities" (Isaiah 53:4, 5), the stream of salvation flows for a lost race. As the rock had been once smitten, so Christ was to be "once offered to bear the sins of many." Hebrews 9:28. Our Saviour was not to be sacrificed a second time; and it is only necessary for those who seek the blessings of His grace to ask in the name of Jesus, pouring forth the heart's desire in penitential prayer. Such prayer will bring before the Lord of hosts the wounds of Jesus, and then will flow forth afresh the life-giving blood, symbolized by the flowing of the living water for Israel.
412
{PP 411.3}


Re: American Flag in the Sanctuary? [Re: crater] #90816
07/28/07 12:28 AM
07/28/07 12:28 AM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: crater
There was the brass serpent on a pole, I have to say I had some trouble with this symbol as, I associate serpent with the adversary.


The serpent as adversary has some validity. Remember, Christ was made sin for us.

But when we take things farther than what God intends, we fall into idolatry of the symbols. Remember what Hezekiah called it: Nehushtan.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: American Flag in the Sanctuary? [Re: asygo] #90818
07/28/07 05:02 AM
07/28/07 05:02 AM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
 Originally Posted By: asygo
 Originally Posted By: crater
There was the brass serpent on a pole, I have to say I had some trouble with this symbol as, I associate serpent with the adversary.


The serpent as adversary has some validity. Remember, Christ was made sin for us.

But when we take things farther than what God intends, we fall into idolatry of the symbols. Remember what Hezekiah called it: Nehushtan.


Are you relating the serpent as adversary in this particular setting or just in general?

I don't recall Nehushtan, incident. Thanks for pointing it out. Interesting that they had the relic still. The real significance must have been lost during that period.

Apparently, Nicodemus understood the significance of this symbol.

Re: American Flag in the Sanctuary? [Re: crater] #90820
07/28/07 05:13 AM
07/28/07 05:13 AM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: crater
Are you relating the serpent as adversary in this particular setting or just in general?


I'm talking about the brazen serpent on the pole representing Christ.

 Quote:
As the image made in the likeness of the destroying serpents was lifted up for their healing, so One made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" was to be their Redeemer. Rom. 8:3.


Note that the symbol for healing was in the likeness of that which caused the death in the first place. So also, Christ was made in the likeness of sinful flesh.

There's something here that relates to Christ's nature (a favorite topic). The object on the pole was the LIKENESS of a serpent, not an actual serpent. So also, Christ came in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, not actual sinful flesh. Paul chose his words wisely.

 Originally Posted By: crater
I don't recall Nehushtan, incident. Thanks for pointing it out. Interesting that they had the relic still. The real significance must have been lost during that period.

Apparently, Nicodemus understood the significance of this symbol.


The significance was indeed lost. They were worshiping it! And so, when it was a stumbling block rather than an aid, Hezekiah destroyed it.

Yes, Nicodemus understood its true meaning. Just as today, though some symbols are misused, there are those who understand their true meaning.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: American Flag in the Sanctuary? [Re: asygo] #90832
07/28/07 09:33 PM
07/28/07 09:33 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec

Hello Crater,

 Originally Posted By: crater

Just a thought; obviously, it is most likely that our churches wouldn't display the flag of the first beast, but what about the second beast of Rev 13?


Thank you for this remark. It should receive careful attention from Sabbathkeepers.
(BTW - It is reported that the Papal flag was flown at a recent GC session.)

SDAs have long understood:

• the Papacy to be the beast of Revelation 13.
• the United States to be the image of the beast.

"In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the state will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends."

"Then to learn what the image is like and how it is to be formed we must study the characteristics of the beast itself - the papacy" Both from Great Controversy 443.

Ellen White imples that the abomination of desolation stood in the holy place when the Roman standards were set up outside Jerusalem. GC 26 & 30. This was the time appointed to flee the holy city.

Likewise, the flag of the United States appears to be the most recognizable standard of the beast's image. This flag is a symbol of imperial domination and tyranny to many regions of the world. Canada's flag is sadly earning the same reputation.

Can a church or follower of the meek and lovely Lamb of God display this standard of the beast's image? What message is this sending to the multitudes who have been brutalized by the U.S. regime?

Christ said "my kingdom is not of this world" John 18:36. Thus, He would not fly a Roman flag. Does 'allegiance to the flag' help prepare one to accept the mark of the beast? What are your thoughts Crater?

Gordon

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