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Re: No temptation too difficult to resist -- Is it true?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#92399
10/26/07 07:32 PM
10/26/07 07:32 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM: The temptations common to mankind and the sins commonly committed by mankind are one and the same. This isn't correct. Temptation is not sin. The logical link is there is no excuse for committing sins common to mankind because there is no temptation common to mankind that God cannot empower people to recognize and resist. Sins common to mankind is not under discussion. Temptations are. All Paul said was that there was no excuse for not overcoming any temptation. You are claiming that means there is not excuse for sinning. This may or may not be true, but it doesn't follow from what Paul said. Your argument is incomplete. I gave you a couple of examples of arguments that would be complete.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: No temptation too difficult to resist -- Is it true?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#92400
10/26/07 07:36 PM
10/26/07 07:36 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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So, to be effective in eradicating sin, we need to eradicate the desire to sin. This won't happen by merely showing people that power is available to overcome, or that they'll get in trouble for sinning. What they need to see is Christ lifted up in all His glory. When they see His matchless charms, the things of earth will grow strangely dim. Look and live! A hearty Amen! to everything here, except the very first sentence. As long as we are in this flesh, the desire for sin will be there. But there can be a motiving factor which is stronger than sin. Where sin abounds (or temptation), grace does much more abound. The "things of earth" still exist; they aren't eradicated. But they grow "strangely dim."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: No temptation too difficult to resist -- Is it true?
[Re: Tom]
#92420
10/28/07 03:17 PM
10/28/07 03:17 PM
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OP
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Posts: 22,256
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TE: All Paul said was that there was no excuse for not overcoming any temptation. You are claiming that means there is not excuse for sinning. This may or may not be true, but it doesn't follow from what Paul said.
MM: Again, Paul said we can recognize and resist the temptations common to mankind because God will regulate them so that they do not exceed our ability to bear and escape. True, he does not specifically say there is no excuse for sinning, but it is clearly implied.
In light of the promise in 1 Corinthians 10:13 can you think of an excuse for sinning? I realize there are reasons why we sin (knowingly or unknowingly), but do they count as excuses?
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Re: No temptation too difficult to resist -- Is it true?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#92421
10/28/07 03:24 PM
10/28/07 03:24 PM
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TE: As long as we are in this flesh, the desire for sin will be there.
MM: The "desire for sin" refers to the desires of our flesh, right? The desires of the new man is to be like Jesus. I agree with you that the fallen flesh aspect of our nature will continue to clamor for sinful expression until the day Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless body and flesh.
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Re: No temptation too difficult to resist -- Is it true?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#92431
10/29/07 12:42 AM
10/29/07 12:42 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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True, he does not specifically say there is no excuse for sinning, but it is clearly implied. To simply assert "it's clearly implied," is avoiding the issue. Everyone agrees Paul said that there is no excuse for being overcome by temptation. In order for this to mean that there is no excuse for sinning, you have to either show that one cannot sin without being tempted, or that there is no excuse for sins which do not involve temptation. This point should be easy to grasp. TE: As long as we are in this flesh, the desire for sin will be there.
MM: The "desire for sin" refers to the desires of our flesh, right? The desires of the new man is to be like Jesus. I agree with you that the fallen flesh aspect of our nature will continue to clamor for sinful expression until the day Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless body and flesh. Yes, desire for sin refers to the flesh.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: No temptation too difficult to resist -- Is it true?
[Re: Tom]
#92439
10/29/07 04:02 PM
10/29/07 04:02 PM
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TE: Everyone agrees Paul said that there is no excuse for being overcome by temptation.
MM: In light of the promise in 1 Corinthians 10:13 can you think of an excuse for sinning? I realize there are reasons why we sin (knowingly or unknowingly), but do they count as excuses?
TE: In order for this to mean that there is no excuse for sinning, you have to either show that one cannot sin without being tempted, or that there is no excuse for sins which do not involve temptation.
MM: Is there an "excuse for sins which do not involve temptation"?
TE: Yes, desire for sin refers to the flesh.
MM: Thank you. On this we agree.
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Re: No temptation too difficult to resist -- Is it true?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#92446
10/29/07 07:24 PM
10/29/07 07:24 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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TE: Everyone agrees Paul said that there is no excuse for being overcome by temptation.
MM: In light of the promise in 1 Corinthians 10:13 can you think of an excuse for sinning? I realize there are reasons why we sin (knowingly or unknowingly), but do they count as excuses?
TE: In order for this to mean that there is no excuse for sinning, you have to either show that one cannot sin without being tempted, or that there is no excuse for sins which do not involve temptation.
MM: Is there an "excuse for sins which do not involve temptation"? MM, I've pointed out why the conclusion you came to was lacking, in the sense of being a complete or valid argument. I provided examples of complete arguments for you. Arthur has made the same points. It seems your are either unable or unwilling to recognize how your argument is lacking. I've tried to point out the outcome in several different ways now. I don't know what else to say. Perhaps you could take a look at the posts where I provided examples of complete arguments and see why they are complete. If you can see why the example arguments I provided are complete, you should be able to see what's missing in yours.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: No temptation too difficult to resist -- Is it true?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#92454
10/30/07 03:03 AM
10/30/07 03:03 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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A: He might arrange circumstances differently for me than for someone who does not have the same weakness.
MM: Do you mean to say God choreographs circumstances? Yes. A: Once you're separated from Him, where will you get the discernment and power? These people are not born of God and have no claim to the promises of God.
MM: Does that mean God cannot temper the temptations that come to people if they aren't more careful? No. Again, we have to avoid hearing more than what's being said. What I'm saying is pretty simple: - If you separate from God, you have no divine discernment.
- If you separate from God, you have to divine power.
- If you are not born of God, you have no right to His inheritance.
God can temper everything such that there is no temptation whatsoever in the entire universe. But that might require killing every created being. It will eventually happen to the ultimately impenitent, but not right now. A: Are we talking willful disobedience only? Are we including everything that is not congruent with God's character? IOW, are we talking objective or subjective standards?
MM: Which sin/temptation common to mankind is excluded in the promise? For example, there is the temptation to be self-centered, which all babies manifest. That is a characteristic that is incongruent with God's holy character. Does 1Cor 10:13 cover that? A: There has never been an excuse to sin. And the sinner does not need one.
MM: Why not? Is it because God choreographs the circumstances? Is it because He will not allow people to be tempted above their ability to resist it? No. It is because God did not create a universe where sin can be excused. But the rebel needs no excuse, because he is rebellious. A: What they need to see is Christ lifted up in all His glory.
MM: Is this necessary for God to temper the temptations that come to people? Or, does God temper them regardless? First, God does not temper all temptations. Second, if one must see Christ's glory before he can reflect that glory, then it is also a prerequisite for overcoming temptations.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: No temptation too difficult to resist -- Is it true?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#92462
10/30/07 04:20 PM
10/30/07 04:20 PM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, in the following post I have switched gears. 1. In light of the promise in 1 Corinthians 10:13 can you think of an excuse for sinning? 2. I realize there are reasons why we sin (knowingly or unknowingly), but do they count as excuses? 3. Is there an "excuse for sins which do not involve temptation"? TE: Everyone agrees Paul said that there is no excuse for being overcome by temptation.
MM: In light of the promise in 1 Corinthians 10:13 can you think of an excuse for sinning? I realize there are reasons why we sin (knowingly or unknowingly), but do they count as excuses?
TE: In order for this to mean that there is no excuse for sinning, you have to either show that one cannot sin without being tempted, or that there is no excuse for sins which do not involve temptation.
MM: Is there an "excuse for sins which do not involve temptation"?
TE: Yes, desire for sin refers to the flesh.
MM: Thank you. On this we agree.
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Re: No temptation too difficult to resist -- Is it true?
[Re: asygo]
#92464
10/30/07 04:37 PM
10/30/07 04:37 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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A: He might arrange circumstances differently for me than for someone who does not have the same weakness.
MM: Do you mean to say God choreographs circumstances? Yes. A: Once you're separated from Him, where will you get the discernment and power? These people are not born of God and have no claim to the promises of God.
MM: Does that mean God cannot temper the temptations that come to people if they aren't more careful? No. Again, we have to avoid hearing more than what's being said. What I'm saying is pretty simple: - If you separate from God, you have no divine discernment.
- If you separate from God, you have to divine power.
- If you are not born of God, you have no right to His inheritance.
God can temper everything such that there is no temptation whatsoever in the entire universe. But that might require killing every created being. It will eventually happen to the ultimately impenitent, but not right now. A: Are we talking willful disobedience only? Are we including everything that is not congruent with God's character? IOW, are we talking objective or subjective standards?
MM: Which sin/temptation common to mankind is excluded in the promise? For example, there is the temptation to be self-centered, which all babies manifest. That is a characteristic that is incongruent with God's holy character. Does 1Cor 10:13 cover that? A: There has never been an excuse to sin. And the sinner does not need one.
MM: Why not? Is it because God choreographs the circumstances? Is it because He will not allow people to be tempted above their ability to resist it? No. It is because God did not create a universe where sin can be excused. But the rebel needs no excuse, because he is rebellious. A: What they need to see is Christ lifted up in all His glory.
MM: Is this necessary for God to temper the temptations that come to people? Or, does God temper them regardless? First, God does not temper all temptations. Second, if one must see Christ's glory before he can reflect that glory, then it is also a prerequisite for overcoming temptations. A: "Do you mean to say God choreographs circumstances?" Yes. MM: I agree. A: "Does that mean God cannot temper the temptations that come to people if they aren't more careful?" No. MM: I agree. God tempers, makes sure, that temptations do not exceed a certain level. And, He does this even for people who reject His counsel and guidance. A: "Which sin/temptation common to mankind is excluded in the promise?" For example, there is the temptation to be self-centered, which all babies manifest. That is a characteristic that is incongruent with God's holy character. Does 1Cor 10:13 cover that? MM: Yes. 1 Cor 10:13 refers to all the temptations common to mankind. Self-centeredness is the root of all temptations. A: "There has never been an excuse to sin. And the sinner does not need one." "Why not? Is it because God choreographs the circumstances? Is it because He will not allow people to be tempted above their ability to resist it?" No. It is because God did not create a universe where sin can be excused. But the rebel needs no excuse, because he is rebellious. MM: Why can't sinning be excused? A: First, God does not temper all temptations. MM: Which temptations does God not temper (regulate)? A: Second, if one must see Christ's glory before he can reflect that glory, then it is also a prerequisite for overcoming temptations. MM: "... it is also a prerequisite for overcoming temptations." Why?
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