MM: It wouldn't be as confusing except for the fact I'm talking about God's knowledge of things an eternity before FMAs were created, before tastes preference have been demonstrated. You have yet to address this question.


MM: Does it make logical sense to say God knows an eternity ahead of time the flavor preferences of FMAs? If He knows such mundane things, why He doesn't know every choice and preference ahead of time? Why didn't He know Lucifer and A&E were going to rebel?


TE: God knows the future exactly as it is.

MM: Do you mean as many possibilities? If so, why, then, do you also say He knows ahead of time exactly how some things will (not might) play out?

TE: Your view (from my perspective) would have God know the future in some way which does not correspond to reality.

MM: Whose reality? Ours or God's? I cannot know with certainty what my wife is going to say or not say. But you say God does know with certainty, and that He has known an eternity before FMAs were created. How can God know a person's character an eternity before he/she is born?


MM: Tom, three times you refer to what God knows. And yet cannot understand why I think it has something to do with God? Why wouldn't I think it has something to do with God?


MM: Okay, so you do believe God has known for an eternity certain choices certain FMAs will make (i.e. flavor preferences) but that He definitely did not know Lucifer would rebel or that he would deceive A&E into rebelling.


MM: The problem I see with your logic is that it assumes your quotes prove God did not know beforehand how these particular events would play out. You believe this in spite of also believing God knows ahead of time how certain mundane events will play out. How can God know how mundane things will play out but not know how important things will play out?


MM: How does this answer explain why God chose to create them in spite of knowing they might rebel?


TE: If God knew man would rebel, that would mean there was some reason why it should happen.

MM: Consider the case of Judas. Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him. Is this the reason why it happened? Based on your logic, we are forced to answer, Yes.


MM: Why, then, should we be convinced FMAs will not rebel in the future? Since it did not prevent Lucifer from rebelling, how can we be so sure it won't happen again? By the way, answering, "Because God said so", doesn't cut it. If that's all it takes, why didn't He just say so in the beginning and circumvent the GC?

MM: If He knew FMAs might rebel, why wouldn't He "hope" they wouldn't? How can He "not expect it" since He knew it was a possibility? How is "hope they wouldn't" and "not expect it" different in light of the fact God knew it might happen?


MM: According to you, possessing free will means sinning is possible, thus God cannot create a FMA He knows will not sin (although you do not apply this rule to post-GC FMAs, though I'm still not sure why). From my perspective, the way God did things was the right and best way. Other options were merely theoretical since God only doe that which is right and best.


MM: Possible alternatives! That's what I'm talking about. Why didn't God opt for one of those possible alternatives? Was it because they weren't viable options, that they were only theoretical options?

You say the reason you believe there was only "one" way to save man is because that's what Inspiration says. Well, with this answer in mind, why do you believe there are many possible ways the future can play out when Inspiration only tells us about one way?

For example, the Bible depicts Jesus succeeding on the cross. It doesn't tell us Jesus might fail. So, why do you believe God didn't know ahead of time if Jesus would fail or succeed on the cross? Why don't you believe only what Inspiration says in this case?


MM: Speaking specifically of whether or not to create Lucifer and A&E, God's options were only two, 1) to create them and deal with the GC, 2) not to create them and not deal with the GC, with the second option being only theoretical since it wasn't the right or best option as evidenced by the fact God didn't opt for it.

MM: I'm not sure which way you believe, Thomas.

1. God chose to create FMAs in spite of knowing they would rebel. Why didn't He simply opt not to create them in the first place?

2. God chose to create FMAs in spite of knowing they might rebel. Why didn't He simply opt not to create them in the first place?

What you mean by this is that the future is determined by God, which is not what I believe.

Regarding taste preferences, I just gave that as an example. It seems possible to me that this could be something determined by one's DNA. God would know the DNA of a possible creature that would exist, as well as its parents and environment, which would allow Him to infer a great many things, while other things would remain yet to be determined.



Some things are known, or settled, and some not. For example, God knows the sun will rise each morning.



Reality is what it is. It is ontological, not epistemological, which is to say, it is what it is, not what one perceives it to be. Or to say it yet another way, perceiving reality to be a certain way does not change the way it really is.

There is only one reality, not billions of different reality corresponding to each person.

God, being perfect, perceives reality as it actually is.



God knows a person's possible character.



Because the issue is ontological, not epistemological.



You missed the point of my explanation, it looks to me. You were asking me how God could know certain things with certainty, but not others. I gave the flavor example of an explanation as to how this could be the case, and you went off on a tangent about how God could know flavor preferences, which has nothing to do with the point I was making or the explanation. I'm not saying anything at all about God's ability to know our flavor preferences. I'm simply providing an example so you can understand how God could know some things without certainty but not others.

Regarding Lucifer, God knew he might rebel, and might deceive Adam and Eve.



I'm not assuming the quotes prove God did not know definitely how these things would play out. I'm either making inferences from the quotes, or simply presenting the quotes to speak for themselves.

An assumption is something which accepted as unproved, like an axiom.



You'd have to be more specific here. God knows with certainty how some things will play out, because there is enough information to make that determination. Other things do not have as much information. Another way of putting it is that some things are settled, and some not. The things which are settled may be so because of the laws of physics, because God will take action and foresees what He will do, because a person's character is fixed, or for any number of reasons. It has nothing to do with an event being mundane or not.



You mean why didn't God decide not to create them, rather than take the risk involved in creating them? God preferred to have the created beings around than not, notwithstanding the risk involved.



Both your question and your reasoning make no sense to me here. Please flesh this out.

Look at what I wrote and what you wrote. I wrote "If God knew man would rebel, that would mean there was some reason why it should happen." You wrote, "Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him. Is this the reason why it happened?"

There is no reason to conclude that because the fact that if God knows something will certainly happen, that means there is a reason that the thing certain to happen will implies God's knowing the reason the thing will happen is a cause for it to happen.

What are you thinking here?



God has told us sin will not arise again. Don't you believe Him? Why do you need to be convinced? Why isn't His word sufficient?



I don't know what you're talking about. Why didn't God just say what? That sin wouldn't arise again? How could the GC be circumvented when it is the very thing that made it possible for God to say that sin will not arise again?

Let's go back to the other point I've been making in response to this question. In regards to Lucifer, God foresaw that there were possible futures in which Lucifer would rebel. In regards to FMAs in the future, God does not foresee any possible future in which rebellion occurs again.

What is the difficulty in understanding this? I don't understand why you keep bringing this up. The situation after the Great Controversy has played out is obviously different than it was before it began. You see that, don't you?

Why would it be in the least surprising (given my perspective, of course) that God would foresee that sin will not arise again? That was the whole point of the Plan of Salvation!

Not at all. What I mean by that is that the future is (if it is of the kind that already exists perfectly) determined wether God exists or not.

God created, and God knew about the risk of rebellion. Despite of the risk for this unlikely event, God unilaterally choose to create for purposes which He has not revealed to us.

TV: God created, and God knew about the risk of rebellion. Despite of the risk for this unlikely event, God unilaterally choose to create for purposes which He has not revealed to us.

MM: Thomas, I also believe God has not clearly revealed to us why He created FMAs in spite of knowing they would rebel. Here's what I do know:

DA 22
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}

AG 129
The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. {AG 129.2}

MM: There are trillions of possible DNA combinations. Multiply this by trillions of FMAs and you arrive at astronomical varieties and possibilities.

Yet you believe God knows, with settled certainty, not only the genealogy of everyone but also things unique to each one, knowledge which is based on the trillions of different DNA combinations they could inherit and the trillions of different character traits they could develop, and that He has known these things an eternity before anyone existed.

In spite of all this you also believe God did not know Lucifer and A&E would rebel. This anomaly blows me away, Tom. I don't see how anyone can believe it.


MM: The sun is not a FMA. So, how can this insight help me understand how God can know some things with settled certainty and not the rest of it?


MM: Since the future, as we know it, is not yet a reality, how can anyone know anything about the future in terms of reality? Unless, of course, they exist outside of time. God existed before the advent of time, therefore, He is not bound by it.

Time began the moment God created FMAs. The future, a form of time, did not exist before the creation of FMAs. The advent of time, however, did not alter God, that is, it did not alter His omnipresence, His ability to be everywhere eternally.

Because of these things, God's reality is different than ours, that is, His knowledge of the future is different than ours. The truth, true knowledge, is the basis of reality. Since God knows everything about the future, even from your perspective, means God's reality is different than ours. His knowledge of the future and our knowledge of the future is worlds apart. Thus, His reality is different than ours. Right?


MM: If God can only know ahead of time a person's possible character, not their actual character, how He know anything about anyone with settled certainty an eternity before they exist?


MM: Why, then, do you keep referring to God's knowledge of the future?


MM: Oh, okay, please forgive me. So, you believe God knows with settled certainty specific choices FMAs will make (i.e. flavor preferences) an eternity before they exist, but that He did not know with settled certainty Lucifer would rebel or that he would deceive A&E into rebelling.


MM: The problem I see with your logic is that it infers your quotes prove God did not know beforehand how these particular events would play out.


MM: I still don't know how can know some things with settled certainty an eternity before it happens and not other things. Your suggestion that it has to do with knowing their DNA and character an eternity before they exist doesn't make sense to me (from your perspective).



TE: You mean why didn't God decide not to create them, rather than take the risk involved in creating them? God preferred to have the created beings around than not, notwithstanding the risk involved.[/quote]
MM: I mean, why didn't God leave uncreated the FMAs He knew might rebel?


MM: You wrote, "If God knew man would rebel, that would mean there was some reason why it should happen." From this statement I hear you saying, If God knew man would rebel, that would mean there was some reason why it happened, that God knows the reason why they sinned, and if God knew why they sinned it would cease to be sin.

So, again, since Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him, does it mean there was some reason why it happened, that Jesus knew the reason why, therefore, it ceases to be sin?


MM: If God saying so is all it takes to convince us "the wages of sin is death" why didn't He just say so in the beginning and circumvent the GC? Also, your words imply the GC was necessary to guarantee rebellion will not reoccur. Was there no other way?


MM: Your only legitimate basis for believing rebellion will not reoccur is God's saying so. Where you and I differ is how and why God knows it will not happen again.

To determine means "to establish or affect the nature, kind, or quality of; fix." This means that, for the future to be determined, someone has to determine it. The future cannot establish its own nature or kind, or fix itself. Someone has to do that, and this being could only be God. However I don't believe that the individual future is determined, that is, that God decides how the future will play out for each person.
If you mean predicted, OK, I believe the future can be predicted by God, but I don't believe this affects anyone's free will. Jesus predicted that Peter would deny Him, however Peter denied Jesus not because Jesus predicted it, but because he was overcome by Satan's temptation.
And of course I believe that God can really make me land softly on a birdfeather pillow, but miracles, also, don't affect free will. Jesus made dozens of miracles, but this didn't affect anyone's free will - some accepted Him, and some rejected Him.