Is there any difference between what is and what God perceives things to be?



Then why did you ask, "What is not illogical about it? How can someone be everywhere at the same time?"



How can you say in one breath, "I don't think it is illogical" and in the next "it contradicts the laws of nature and logic as I know it"? Mind-boggling.



This is awful reasoning. Your "therefore" is based on your believing something which you say is both not illogical, and contradictory to logic. Then, on top of that, you conclude that, "therefore" there is logic that applies to God but not to you.

Logic is not something which applies to beings. Logic applies to propositions and reasonsing. The propositions can involve God or not, it doesn't matter. The rules of logic don't change.



I'm not seeing that this point has to do with anything.



No, it's not the fact that God is not bound by time and space that implies this, but the fact that He is timeless. You described God experiencing everything happening at the same time, all at once. You should be able to understand that a conclusion of this presupposition is that experiencing something sequentially is impossible. If it's all happening at the same time, it can't happen in sequence.



Sure, at the same time. But not at different times simultaneously.

Let's go back to knowledge changing, which may be an easier argument to understand. If God's knowledge is changeless, then He cannot make a decision, because making a decision changes your knowledge. Before you make a decision, your knowledge tells you you haven't made a decision yet and there is a decision that needs to be made. After you make a decision, your knowledge tells you you have made a decision. Also things changed based on your decision, which also changes your knowledge. Conversely, if your knowledge does not change , then you cannot make a decision, nor can you learn, or discover anything. You would just know. There is where the impassibility idea of the Greeks came from.

To summarize, if God's knowledge is changeless, then

a)God cannot learn anything.
b)God cannot discover anything.
c)God cannot think in any sense other than simply observing something, because to think in a way that involves a decision of some sort necessarily changes your knowledge.
d)God cannot make any decisions, because that would change His knowledge.

MM: For example, since God is everywhere at the same time it means I can be sitting on His lap in Phoenix while you are sitting on His lap in Topeka.

TE: Sure, at the same time. But not at different times simultaneously.

MM: True. God's interactions with us reflect reality whether we're talking about yesterday, today, or tomorrow, all of which are now and always for God (but not for us).

TE: If God's knowledge is changeless, then He cannot make a decision, because making a decision changes your knowledge.

MM: God knows the end from the beginning. His knowledge reflects not only His decisions but the decisions of zillions upon zillions of FMAs.

Is there any difference between what is and what God perceives things to be?

I'm really trying to get to a point, which I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that God perceives reality as it is to get to.

You're statement that reality has nothing to do with perception is not correct, in addition to not being a direct answer to my question. There is a correspondence between reality and perception. Reality is not necessarily identical to what it is perceived to be, but to say that they have nothing to do each other is just incorrect. We perceive there to be a chair in a room, which we can sit on, as well as see, because there really is a chair in the room.



He can't make any decisions if His knowledge is changeless. You in no way addressed this point. I explained in detail why what I am saying is the case.

TE: Is there any difference between what is and what God perceives things to be?

MM: If by perception you mean accurate knowledge of what is (the facts as they really are) then there is no difference. Do you have some other definition is mind?

TE: He can't make any decisions if His knowledge is changeless.

MM: God knows the end from the beginning. He is omniscient because He is omnipresent (in time and space). You seem to think God is only omnipresent in space. His ability to be omnipresent in time and space in no way means He cannot make decisions or experience sequential events in time and space. Unconditional prophecy is a point in case.

TE: Is there any difference between what is and what God perceives things to be?

MM: If by perception you mean accurate knowledge of what is (the facts as they really are) then there is no difference. Do you have some other definition is mind?

I wouldn't constitute reality as merely facts, but yes, that's the general idea. It's not a trick question. It just seems obvious to me that while our perception of reality may be off (and is off), God's is not. God perceives things as they are in truth. You would agree with this, wouldn't you?

TE: He can't make any decisions if His knowledge is changeless.

MM: God knows the end from the beginning. He is omniscient because He is omnipresent (in time and space). You seem to think God is only omnipresent in space.

]That's what "omnipresent" means. "being present everywhere at once."

His ability to be omnipresent in time and space in no way means He cannot make decisions or experience sequential events in time and space.

It does mean that, and I've explained why. Simply denying what I wrote is not an adequate response. I presented arguments. Please address the arguments.

Here's one argument: If God experiences everything happening as "now," then there can be nothing sequential. This is obvious. That everything is happening now means nothing is happening at some time other than now, which means there is no sequencing, because for something to be sequenced means there has to be things happening one after the other, which is to say at different times.

Unconditional prophecy is a point in case.

In prophecy, God states, "I will do this" "I will do that". If God experienced everything as "now," God could not say that. He would say, "I am doing this."

Also, if it is true that unconditional prophecy means that God can experience things sequentially (I have no idea why you made this assertion, since you didn't explain it, but let's assume it's true), this just goes to show that God does no experience everything as "now."

TE: God perceives things as they are in truth. You would agree with this, wouldn't you?

MM: I wouldn't include the word "perceive". God simply knows the truth as it really is. You are I disagree as to how and why.

TE: If God experiences everything happening as "now," then there can be nothing sequential.

MM: How do you know? You're not God. Are you assuming "now" means the same thing to God as it does to us? We are, after all, talking about God who can be everywhere at the same time. That means hundreds of planets involving zillions of FMAs; and you're having trouble believing He experiences sequential events yesterday, today, and tomorrow at the same time? I don't get it.

Ok, we'll use the word "know" instead of "perceive." You would agree that God knows reality as it is, correct?



Because I can use logic and reason.



I don't have to be. I just have to be able to think logically, because we're dealing with logical propositions and arguments involving cause and effect. To counteract the arguments, you need to show that either a presupposition I'm assuming is false, or that my reasoning is incorrect somewhere.



A timeless being cannot experience things sequentially. This is like saying that a circle cannot be a square. I explained why here:

TE: You would agree that God knows reality as it is, correct?

MM: God simply knows the truth as it really is. You are I disagree as to how and why.

TE: I just have to be able to think logically, because we're dealing with logical propositions and arguments involving cause and effect.

MM: You seem to think the same principles of logic that apply to us also apply to God. Which principles do you apply to explain how God can be everywhere at the same time? And, how do these principles apply to us?

TE: That everything is happening now means nothing is happening at some time other than now ....

MM: That's easy for you to say because you are not God. Do you apply this logic to the past and present, or just to the future? Please keep in mind, as you answer these questions, time and space relate to FMAs. Before God created FMAs, time and space did not exist, at least, not as we know it.

You would agree that God knows reality as it is, correct?



The principles of logic, as I've pointed out several times now, apply to propositions and reasoning from cause to effect. The propositions can apply to God or us, or other things.



You're confusing propositions with something else. If you can express yourself in terms of propositions and conclusions reasoning from cause to effect, we can discuss these using logic.



This doesn't involve being God in any way! It's like my saying, "2 + 2 = 4" and you respond, "That's easy for you to say because you are not God."



I'm apply the logic to your proposition. I'm demonstrating to you how what you are suggesting is impossible. As I stated:



Please note that "God" does not appear in this sentence. This is a question of logic. You are asserting something which is logically impossible.

Another logical problem with your position is that if God's knowledge is changeless, He cannot make decision, or think in any sense (other than as a passive observer) because is He did these things His knowledge would change.

Tom, your propositions, logic, and conclusions are not valid because they do not take into account God is omnipresent in time and space. Divorcing this from your proposition is fruitless and pointless.