Most of us more than likely will not read all the EGW quotes I just posted above. But it is these quotes that have helped shape my understanding of conversion, rebirth and character perfection.

I have sometimes objected to Mike's posts as being idealistic and play on words. I do sense Mike is sincere. Just want to say these last several posts by him and several others sound realistic to me. I'm someone who has had a rough background and has had a long way to go, and I do feel encouraged by these explanations of what it means to be born again and be perfect in Christ.

Amen brother, that's what restin' in Jesus is all about - freedom from the bondage and burden of sin. God's promises are awesome, more than amazing. Thank you Jesus! Grace and mercy are more than a play on words. The word of God is our hope, our salvation, our victory, our everything in sweet Jesus.

I look forward to studying with you in the future. I am encouraged that people, like you and me, who have come out of rough circumstances can find peace and freedom in Jesus and His righteousness. The love of God is the best thing that has ever happened to me. Thank you Jesus!

Linda has had a prayer partner (Donna Small) the local SDA Chaplain's wife,
for several weeks now. Through intercessory prayer & fasting they have
assisted God in helping Him usher in revival & reformation in our respective
homes.

They got re-baptized this last Sabbath as a rededication to God. I hope to
be doing that also soon. They have been using the Bible and the books
"Escape to God" and "Empowered Living" and various SOP books in their
organized devotions and prayer times.

I gave a husbands testimony about the
changes in Linda & growing in me.

The whole premace is this.
1. You are not able to change the other person, or your own heart. It is your task to go to God, plead with Him for the heart changes & claim His promises, listen to His voice and follow Him.

2. Once converted, begin accelerating your intercessory prayers toward the assignments God gives you. (Usually it's your spouse then later your children). As the changes occur in each person the process replicates and grows into a wider sphere of influence.

3. You depend upon God to act as God, and you stop trying to do His work in someone else. You still set guidelines but control of the conscience is left to God.

4. You are now spiritually in position to interceed with God for yourself & some one else without actually requiring God to bless doublemindedness and sins you are holding on to. Which He will not do. So now you pray according to both, His written will and within the workings of the plan of salvation lawfully.

What God explained to others and also to Jim Honaberger (sp?) that he put in the books "Escape to God" and "Empowered Living"; are scattered throught Scripture & SOP. But there in the story of the Honaberger Family & other families they were in contact with, shows how they discovered it and lived it and how to practice it.

The "it" is giving all your choices & desires to God and learning to listen to His voice. It is one on one heart work with God. That is how Jesus did it, one on one heart work with His father. His Intercessory prayer & fasting for His disciples, His living out Scriptures teachings. Then His explanations of Scripture & PRN use of authority only as needed.

He surrendered His plans, desires, thoughts, choices, goals, whatever to God His Father, and took on the Father's words, works, offered power, adgenda, mission, goals, and so on. God the Father did not violate Jesus's human personality, or make Him a robot. They walked together Parent & Child - knit together ever closer - till Gethsemene, trial, Calvary. Which while seperating then for the first time in eternity - brought them closer than ever during the ressurection day activities in Heaven.

The lived out Gospel in miniature. Our model to follow in Humanity.

I hope this doesn't come across wrong, so please forgive me if I fail to convey my sentiments without sounding harsh, but I have noticed a difference in Linda too. In the past not all of her posts on MSDAOL have been as gracious and endearing as they now are. I praise God for her new and improved experience in Jesus. Cyberspace requires tons of tact and extra effort in order to treat others with the respect and kindness they deserve as children of God. Linda has been going the extra mile to ensure her posts are more filled with the love of God. Thank you Jesus. And congratulations Linda! God is good. Heaven bound, who-yah!

Oops! I guess it wasn't well received. I'm sorry!

Mike,

While it is refreshing to see a Pastor who actually believes in perfection of character... still, I don't know if I entirely agree with your ideas.

You said:

"Conversion is a process, and rebirth (being born again) is the product. The process begins the moment we respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit who impresses us to behold “Christ and him crucified.” 1 Corinthians 2:2. “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” John 1:29. During the process of conversion the Holy Spirit enables us to confess and forsake our moral imperfections, our defective traits of character. We are converted as soon as all our old man habits of sin are dead. We begin at conversion where Jesus began at conception.

During the process of conversion, as the Spirit of God is impressing us to crucify self, our old man habits of sin are confessed and forsaken. The Holy Spirit will not reveal to us our defects of character any faster than He is able to influence us to crucify them. This process of conversion may, depending on the person, take many months to many years and, unfortunately, there are some who never do complete the process.

We may not be able to pin point the exact moment we are born again, but in the eyes of God we complete the conversion process and are born again when our last moral imperfection or defect of character is dead and buried. We are born again a new man in Christ. We become “partakers of the divine nature,” which also empowers us to be “partakers of his holiness.” 2 Peter 1:4 and Hebrews 12:10."


---------
I dont know that we are not born again until this entire process takes place. I think we will have the seal of God when this entire process takes place, however. I read that here:

“He (Christ) gave Himself for our sins; but... He will not take our sins—although He bought them—without our permission. The choice is forever with me as to whether I would rather have my sins than to have Him, isn’t it? Then from this time henceforth can there be any hesitation about letting anything go that God shows us is sin? Will you let it go when it is pointed out? When sin is pointed out to you, say, ‘I would rather have Christ than that,’ and let it go. Just tell the Lord, ‘Lord, I make the choice now; I make the trade; I make thee my choice; it is gone, and I have something better.’... Where in the world is the opportunity for any of us to get discouraged over our sins?

“Now some of the brethren have done that very thing. They came here free; but the Spirit of God brought up something they never saw before; and then, instead of thanking the Lord that that was so, and letting the whole wicked business go, and thanking the Lord that they had ever so much of Him than they ever had before, they began to get discouraged. They said ‘Oh what am I going to do? My sins are so great.’...

“If the Lord has brought up sins to us that we never thought of before, that only shows that He is going down to the depths, and He will reach the bottom at last; and when He finds the last thing that is unclean or impure, and brings that up, and shows that to us, and we say, ‘I would rather have the Lord than that,’ then the work is complete, and the Seal of the living God can be fixed upon that character.” A.T Jones, 1893 General Conference Bulletin pages 404,405.

--
But as far as us being born again and not sinning, I think of this statement:

Steps to Christ, page 64, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: The Test of Discipleship
"There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance."


That to me is saying that our hearts can have already been renewed by the Holy Spirit (born again), yet we will have imperfections of character, doesn't it?

I might be misunderstanding you though. There were also other things I disagree with you on but this is all I had time for right now (I am a newcomer to this thread and so I didnt want to read all through the pages and if someone already pointed out that Steps to Christ quote, Im sorry)

Claudia, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this subject. Here's a quick reply, but I will respond in better detail later on today. And welcome aboard, I hope you will continue to study with us on MSDAOL.

Steps to Christ, page 24, paragraph 2
But when the heart yields to the influence of the Spirit of God, the conscience will be quickened, and the sinner will discern something of the depth and sacredness of God's holy law, the foundation of His government in heaven and on earth. The "Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world," illumines the secret chambers of the soul, and the hidden things of darkness are made manifest. John 1:9. Conviction takes hold upon the mind and heart. The sinner has a sense of the righteousness of Jehovah and feels the terror of appearing, in his own guilt and uncleanness, before the Searcher of hearts. He sees the love of God, the beauty of holiness, the joy of purity; he longs to be cleansed and to be restored to communion with Heaven.

NOTE: Convicted, but not yet converted.

Steps to Christ, page 27, paragraph 1
It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them. An influence of which they are unconscious works upon the soul, and the conscience is quickened, and the outward life is amended. And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?"

Again, convicted, but not yet converted.

Steps to Christ, page 49, paragraph 1
As your conscience has been quickened by the Holy Spirit, you have seen something of the evil of sin, of its power, its guilt, its woe; and you look upon it with abhorrence. You feel that sin has separated you from God, that you are in bondage to the power of evil. The more you struggle to escape, the more you realize your helplessness. Your motives are impure; your heart is unclean. You see that your life has been filled with selfishness and sin. You long to be forgiven, to be cleansed, to be set free. Harmony with God, likeness to Him--what can you do to obtain it?

Once again, convicted, but not yet converted.

Steps to Christ, page 49, paragraph 3
You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised.

Ah yes, not only convicted but now also converted. Rebirth and the new heart is a gift we receive after we have confessed and forsaken our defects and imperfections. But in order to make this study practical let's answer the following question:

If, as so many sincere people insist, we are born again with certain unknown moral defective traits of character, which God graciously and gradually reveals throughout the rest of our lifetime and no faster than we can handle it, if this is true can you name a specific moral imperfection a born again believer can commit without realizing it?I'm not talking about intellectual imperfections such as ignorantly keeping the wrong sabbath day, eating foods prohibited by the levitical laws, or misinterpreting the 2300 day prophecy, etc.

For a list of moral imperfections please read the following:

Galatians 5
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I'm back. Her are some more quotes by Sister White regarding conversion, rebirth and salvation. But please don't forget to answer, if you want to, the practical question posed in my last post. Thank you.

The following quotations do not leave the reader with the impression that Ellen White believed or taught that conversion and rebirth happens in such a manner that the Christian possesses or retains certain unknown moral imperfections which must yet be discovered, confessed and forsaken.

Maranatha, page 237, paragraph 2
A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. The religion of God is a firm fabric, composed of innumerable threads, and woven together with tact and skill. Only the wisdom which comes from God can make this fabric complete. There are a great many kinds of cloth which at first have a fine appearance, but they cannot endure the test. They wash out. The colors are not fast. Under the heat of summer they fade away and are lost. The cloth cannot endure rough handling.

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 4, page 1166, paragraph 2
Unless there is genuine conversion of the soul to God; unless the vital breath of God quickens the soul to spiritual life; unless the professors of truth are actuated by heaven-born principle, they are not born of the incorruptible seed which liveth and abideth forever. Unless they trust in the righteousness of Christ as their only security; unless they copy His character, labor in His spirit, they are naked, they have not on the robe of His righteousness. The dead are often made to pass for the living; for those who are working out what they term salvation after their own ideas, have not God working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure.

The Paulson Collection of Ellen G. White, page 359, paragraph 2
Genuine conversion is needed, not once in years, but daily. This conversion brings a man into new relation with God. Old things, his natural temper, natural passions, and hereditary traits of character pass away, and the man is renewed, converted, sanctified. But this work needs to be continued, or else the heart will become estranged from God; for just as long as Satan lives, he will make an effort to carry out his will. The human agent will constantly encounter a strong current undercurrent. His heart needs to be barricaded by faithful watchfulness and unceasing prayer, else the embankment will give way, and like a mill stream, the undercurrent of natural and cultivated tendencies will sweep away the safeguard. Then the old objectionable traits of character will assert their sway. No renewed heart can keep in a condition sweetness and grace without the application of the salt of the word. Divine grace must be applied daily, else no man will stay converted.

The Paulson Collection of Ellen G. White, page 418, paragraph 1
The only hope for these men of iron will and hearts of stone is to fall on the Rock and be broken. Contact with Christ brings currents of divine power into the soul, so that the old cherished, natural tendencies, habits, and practises, are changed by the Spirit of God. What they need is a genuine conversion . When they have this experience, these weak, tempted souls will look unto Jesus, and say, "I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me." They need to appreciate every ray of light that comes from the throne of God into their pathway. They need to catch the Spirit and principle of the holy law of God, and conform their life to the character of Christ. A new power takes possession of the new heart. Man can never work out this change for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing supernatural element into weak and wicked human nature. This power will cast out the devils that possessed the mind and will, and whose power has been revealed even in the words and works of those who claim to be the children of God.

Evangelism, page 286 and 287
"I have been shown that many have confused ideas in regard to conversion. They have often heard the words repeated from the pulpit, "Ye must be born again." "You must have a new heart." These expressions have perplexed them. They could not comprehend the plan of salvation.

"Many have stumbled to ruin because of the erroneous doctrines taught by some ministers concerning the change that takes place at conversion. Some have lived in sadness for years, waiting for some marked evidence that they were accepted by God. They have separated themselves in a large measure from the world, and find pleasure in associating with the people of God; yet they dare not profess Christ, because they fear it would be presumption to say that they are children of God. They are waiting for that peculiar change that they have been led to believe is connected with conversion.

"After a time some of these do receive evidence of their acceptance with God, and are then led to identify themselves with His people. And they date their conversion from this time. But I have been shown that they were adopted into the family of God before that time. God accepted them when they became weary of sin, and having lost their desire for worldly pleasures, resolved to seek God earnestly. But, failing to understand the simplicity of the plan of salvation, they lost many privileges and blessings which they might have claimed had they only believed, when they first turned to God, that He had accepted them.

"Others fall into a more dangerous error. They are governed by impulse. Their sympathies are stirred, and they regard this flight of feeling as an evidence that they are accepted by God and are converted. But the principles of their life are not changed. The evidences of a genuine work of grace on the heart are to be found not in feeling, but in the life. "By their fruits," Christ declared, "ye shall know them."

"Many precious souls, desiring earnestly to be Christians, are yet stumbling in darkness, waiting for their feelings to be powerfully exercised. They look for a special change to take place in their feelings. They expect some irresistible force, over which they have no control, to overpower them. They overlook the fact that the believer in Christ is to work out his salvation with fear and trembling.

"The convicted sinner has something to do besides repent; he must act his part in order to be accepted by God. He must believe that God accepts his repentance, according to His promise. "Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."

"The work of grace upon the heart is not an instantaneous work. It is effected by continuous, daily watching and believing the promises of God. The repentant, believing one, who cherishes faith and earnestly desires the renewing grace of Christ, God will not turn away empty. He will give him grace. And ministering angels will aid him as he perseveres in his efforts to advance.-- Manuscript 55, 1910.

Testimonies to Southern Africa, page 30, paragraph 2
Genuine conversion is transformation of character. New purposes, new moral tastes are created. Defects of character are overcome. Truth, with its sanctifying power, brings the entire man into obedience to Christ.

The Upward Look, page 86, paragraph 5
Let every step taken be a step of advancement toward genuine conversion, toward unreserved consecration of heart, mind, soul, and strength to the service of the Lord. Let all that is done tend to genuine reformation in thought, in word, in deed, in character building. Let the true be discerned from the false. Do not allow the enemy to lead you to weave wrong figures into the pattern. Keep the love of Christ prominent before the children and youth. Repeat to them often His simple lessons.

Bible Training School, October 1, 1910, paragraph 1
Just in proportion as we empty the soul temple of self-sufficiency, self-dependence, and self-exaltation, will we realize the work that needs to be done to purify the soul, body, and spirit before we can be filled with all the fulness of God. When this work is done the power of God will be revealed, and the truth will be a mighty power in enlightening the mind, sanctifying the soul and spirit. Then genuine conversions will be made to Bible truth.

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, February 4, 1890, paragraph 7
As long as we are content with our limited knowledge, we are disqualified to obtain rich views of truth. We cannot comprehend the facts connected with the atonement, and the high and holy character of God's law. The church to whom God has intrusted the treasures of truth needs to be converted. If we are blessed, we can bless others; but if we do not receive the Holy Spirit in our hearts, we cannot give forth light to others. There is a sad lack of genuine conversion among us. We do not put forth personal effort that souls may have a true knowledge of what constitutes repentance, faith and remission of sins. Our ministering brethren make a decided failure of doing their work in a manner directed by the Lord. They fail to present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. They have not gained an experience through personal communion with God, or a true knowledge of what constitutes Christian character; therefore many are baptized who have fitness for this sacred ordinance, but who are knit to self and the world. They have not seen Christ or received him by faith.

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, July 30, 1901, paragraph 11
No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within. Faith passes into knowledge, and the word of God is understood. The branch becomes a living part of the Vine.

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, July 7, 1904, paragraph 3
Conversion is a change of heart, a turning from unrighteousness to righteousness. Relying upon the merits of Christ, exercising true faith in him, the repentant sinner receives pardon for sin. As he ceases to do evil, and learns to do well, he grows in grace and in the knowledge of God. He sees that in order to follow Jesus he must separate from the world, and, after counting the cost, he looks upon all as loss if he may but win Christ. He enlists in his army, and bravely and cheerfully engages in the warfare, fighting against natural inclinations and selfish desires, and bringing the will into subjection to the will of Christ. Daily he seeks the Lord for grace, and he is strengthened and helped. Self once reigned in his heart, and worldly pleasure was his delight. Now self is dethroned, and God reigns supreme. His life reveals the fruit of righteousness. The sins he once loved he now hates. Firmly and resolutely he follows in the path of holiness. This is genuine conversion.

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, July 7, 1904, paragraph 11
A man sees his danger. He sees that he needs a change of character, a change of heart. He is stirred; his fears are aroused. The Spirit of God is working in him, and with fear and trembling he works for himself, seeking to find out his defects of character, and to see what he can do to bring about the needed change in his life. His heart is humbled. By confession and repentance he shows the sincerity of his desire to reform. He confesses his sins to God, and if he has injured any one, he confesses the wrong to the one he has injured. While God is working, the sinner, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, works out that which God is working in mind and heart. He acts in harmony with the Spirit's working, and his conversion is genuine.

[ January 26, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Claudia wrote:

"But as far as us being born again and not sinning, I think of this statement:"

In the study at the beginning of this thread I wrote:

"Walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man does not mean that we are suddenly incapable of falling back into sin. Satan will never stop tempting us, and we are always free to sin. However, we cannot commit a moral sin while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin.” 1 John 3:9. Sin can happen only in the mind of the old man. Consequently, we must resurrect, as it were, the mind of the old man before we are again capable of committing a known sin."