Hi Mike,

I want you to know that actually, I am as pleased as punch that there is actually an Adventist pastor out there who cares about and advocates perfection of character ..Most of the time I just seem to be encountered with those who are liberal-minded and who seem to advocate that we can pretty much do whatever we want to and still be saved, ... an idea that just makes me cringe.

It is great to have someone to discuss this with who is on the opposite end of the track. I still have to go through and read all of the stuff that was posted on this thread though.

I was going to go look up the words "new heart" on the search thing at the EG White estate website but I seem to get an error message today when I try to go there. I dont know if its just my computer connection or what, thats the problem.

But anyway, you asked if there are any moral sins that we could not realize we have yet and still be converted.

Mike, to answer you, I view this whole thing this way... (Now I might change my mind though, after reading your stuff and talking to you)...

I view Jesus and His character as so perfectly perfect that when I look at Him in how He lived, how He related to others, etc... that in contrast, my "righteousness" just seems as nothing to me. In every way, in every thought, every moment of His life... Jesus had perfect love, perfect unselfishness.

And so, I, in contrast to that, am just so unlike that. I can see all sorts of imperfections in me. Think for instance, of this fact... "Sin" consists of not only refraining from doing certain wrong acts but also in "doing" all sorts of things. When I look at the Spirit of Prophecy books and I read all of the many many things that I ought to be doing to help others, to win souls, to encourage others, and on and on... I wouldnt even dream for a moment of claiming to God that I am doing every one of those things. Think of Daniel and what he said ... in Daniel chapter 9:


2: In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
3: And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
4: And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
5: We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:
6: Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
7: O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
8: O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.
9: To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
10: Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

Even Daniel confessed the imperfections of his ways and the sinfulness of he and God's people. And I cant imagine that he and some of the others were not "born again" or converted, can you?

I view this issue as that the law is so broad, as said in the Spirit of Prophecy. (I will have to copy & paste that for you whenever I can get back onto that EG White estate)... anyway, the law is SO broad that it reaches down to every little thing we do. For instance, Jesus said something like this,


Matthew 5
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


and Jesus said other things about the fact that the law was so broad, extending even to our very thoughts.

So yes, I believe we are constantly going against these laws. I for sure am not doing all I ought to be doing to help my neighbors. If I lose one opportunity to help someone, I have sinned. If I have one thought that is wrong about someone, I have sinned. If I havent presented the gospel message to someone and allow them to die without hearing it because of my neglect, I have robbed them, stolen from them. And so on.

Maybe I dont understand what you mean by the word "moral" but yes, I do think we can be doing moral sins and not realize that.

I view perfection as in a way that I read in Testimony Treasures, a complilation book of the Spirit of Prophecy. It said something like, "When it is in the heart to help others and to live for the glory of God, then we are perfect". (sorry I cant get you exact quotation right now)

Also, the Spirit of Prophecy says that when it is in the heart to obey, Jesus puts His covering of righteousness over us.

However, I must admit though, this confuses me because in the Spirit of Prophecy it also says that we cannot be justified if we commit one known sin.

This issue of perfection is one that confused me, Mike. I would like to understand it. I wish that somehow I could have this collection of quotations that you have so I could study them

Well anyway, I will be back, and for now I am going to go start from the beginning of this thread and try to read all that has been said on it, -particularly what you have said so far. I usually am pretty well "locked-in" on my opinions when it comes to most things, but on this issue, I am not.

I freely admit, it confuses me. Do they have a "confused-look" icon in here? :/

Also, I really do believe that this whole subject, righteouness by faith, perfection, etc, is what really matters. Nothing is more important than this.


Claudia

Mike,

I am sorry to have started this conversation with you, because I am not going to be able to discuss anything on this forum anymore.


sorry again,
Claudia

Claudia raised a good point that hasn't been discussed on MSDAOL in awhile: Is character perfection so broad and all encompassing that God cannot fulfill His promises to, in and through us?

If we are not as consistently and comprehensively perfect as Jesus was does that mean we are not experiencing God's promises of perfection? Ellen White wrote:

Reflecting Christ, page 73, paragraph 4
He tells us to be perfect as He is, in the same manner. We are to be centers of light and blessing to our little circle, even as He is to the universe. We have nothing of ourselves, but the light of His love shines upon us, and we are to reflect its brightness. "In His borrowed goodness good," we may be perfect in our sphere, even as God is perfect in His.

In Heavenly Places, page 186, paragraph 4
Your perceptive faculties will increase in power and soundness if your whole being, body, soul, and spirit, is consecrated to the accomplishment of a holy work. Make every effort in and through the grace of Christ to attain to the high standard set before you. You can be perfect in your sphere as God is perfect in His sphere. Has not Christ declared, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"?

In Heavenly Places, page 186, paragraph 6
You are carefully to guard the powers of the mind. Your thoughts are to be kept under the control of the Holy Spirit. . . . It is your work to advance toward perfection, making constant improvement, until at last you are pronounced worthy to receive immortal life. And even then the work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.

Clearly and obviously we were never designed to be as perfect as God is in His sphere, rather the promises of God say He will empower us to be as perfect in our sphere as Jesus was in His sphere or circle of influence. The difference is not measured in terms of sin, no way; rather, the imparted righteousness of Christ is of the same source and substance whether it is channeled through Jesus or through us. The only difference is the extent and effect of it's influence. Jesus saves, whereas we can only point people to Jesus.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

According to the promises of God, 1) so long as our old man character habits of sin have been totally crucified, 2) so long as we have received the miraculously and divinely implanted sinless mind of the new man, and 3) so long as we are connected to Jesus and walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we are morally perfect, dead to known sin, free from known sin, and the Holy Spirit is empowering us from within, seated upon the undivided throne of our soul temple, to imitate the righteous example of Jesus, to daily grow in grace and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. And just as Jesus grew in grace and in knowledge and matured in the fruits of the Spirit as He developed from childhood to manhood, so too the promises of God prescribe the same course for born again believers. Like Jesus we are perfect at each advanced step toward greater perfection, that is, like the rising sun that shines brighter and brighter unto the perfect day. Prov 4:18.

And also like Jesus the growth we experience as we progress toward greater perfection does not involve becoming less and less morally defective, but rather like the seed that grows and unfolds and advances toward the full bloom of perfection we, like Jesus, are perfect at every stage of development. The changes we experience as we advance toward perfection have to do with maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, it has nothing to do with discovering unknown defective traits of character and crucifying them.

Jesus did not begin perfect and become perfect or mature by gradually discovering and eliminating defective traits of character. And neither does the growing plant, instead as it grows and develops into a mature plant it's natural and inherent perfection is revealed from perfection to perfection.

And so it is with the sinless mind of the new man, which "after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Eph 4:24. This mind comes complete with all the holy fruit and righteous attributes of God, and as we grow in grace and knowledge these natural and inherent traits unfold more and more perfectly, from "grace to gace", from "faith to faith" and from "glory to glory." The progression is upward, and imitates the development Jesus experienced as He grew and matured, and will continue throughout eternity.

In light of what Claudia wrote about falling short of Jesus' perfect and complete righteous example, we must be careful how we examine our selves in comparison to Jesus. Jesus Himself was not as mature in His perfection when He was a small child as compared to when He was an adult. Therefore, when we compare ourselves to Jesus we must not make the mistake of comparing ourselves to Jesus the mature, fully developed adult. Eternity isn't long enough for us to equal the example of Jesus the adult. We are but mere babes in Christ, but even as babes we are perfect in our sphere according to the promises of God.

I find it interesting that Mike is so engrossed in his doctrine that he hasn't seemed to notice or care that Claudia just said she can not return to the forum. I have the feeling that if Jesus were around He would be more interested in Claudia and her decision, than in making sure everyone understands the absolutely correct principles of perfection.

I have been downloading some documents that were written many years ago from this one website. Most are from Seventh-day Adventist pioneers. However, today I found an article on lectures on revival from someone I am not sure is Seventh-day Adventist. In this document was some pages on "grace". I ran across the following I thought was quite interesting and wanted to share with all of you.

quote:

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Taken from:
LECTURES ON REVIVALS OF RELIGION
Delivered by the Rev. CHARLES G. FINNEY
Year - 1835

II. WHAT TO "GROW IN GRACE" DOES NOT MEAN.

It does not enjoin the gradual giving up of sin. Strange to tell, it would seem that some have so understood it; but we are nowhere in the Bible commanded to give up sin gradually, we are everywhere commanded to give it up instantly and wholly

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[ January 26, 2003, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Avalee ]

Restin wrote:

"I find it interesting that Mike is so engrossed in his doctrine that he hasn't seemed to notice or care that Claudia just said she can not return to the forum. I have the feeling that if Jesus were around He would be more interested in Claudia and her decision, than in making sure everyone understands the absolutely correct principles of perfection."

Restin, I'm sorry I didn't mention it in my last post, but Claudia and I are currently doing a private email study because she doesn't feel comfortable studying it publicly. I did not ignore her concerns. But instead of addressing it publicly I contacted her privately.

The under tone inherent in your post indicates you are not impressed with me. Please forgive me for failing to come across more concerned with people than I am about my theology. I will try harder in future to pay more attention to the things that are most important. Thank you for calling me on this matter.

Avalee posted this quote from Charles Finney:

"It [referring to grace] does not enjoin the gradual giving up of sin. Strange to tell, it would seem that some have so understood it; but we are nowhere in the Bible commanded to give up sin gradually, we are everywhere commanded to give it up instantly and wholly."

Avalee, that's an interesting quote. In light of this thread, what do you think he's talking about?

In my post above I mentioned choice. The following quote from the Spirit of Prophecy has always been such a comfort to me. Everything boils down to choice. Eve in the Garden of Eden made that first choice to touch and eat the forbidden fruit, Adam also made a choice to take and eat of it too. The same is with us....once we know that a certain thing is sin and we go ahead and do it, that is our choice to do so. Not even Satan forced us to commit that sin. We had to make a choice in our minds to do it.

Steps To Christ
Page 47

quote:

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Many are inquiring, "How am I to make the surrender of myself to God?" You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that God cannot accept you; but you need not despair. What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him. {SC 47.1}

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