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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#99679
05/27/08 01:47 PM
05/27/08 01:47 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Rosangela, are you suggesting the great multitude are the only ones in heaven who wear white robes washed in the blood of Jesus? What about all the other people who wear white robes in heaven - are they part of the great multitude, too? Is there just one group of saints in heaven? The angel asks John about a specific group of people clothed in white robes, and the group John describes as wearing white robes is the great multitude. There is no way around it. All the phrases which describe the great multitude in John’s vision, Ellen White applies to the 144,000 in GC. We have two possibilities here: 1) either both groups are one and the same, or 2) the 144,000 are a subgroup within the great multitude of all the saved of all eras, so that what applies to the great multitude applies automatically to them. Also, how can we conclude the following two groups are one and the same when the descriptions are nearly opposite? This wouldn’t be surprising in Revelation, would it? The correspondence in Revelation between what John hears the angel say that he will see, and what he actually sees, generally is something different from what the angel said. Revelation 5: v. 5: “And one of the elders said unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda...” v. 6: “And I beheld, and lo... a Lamb as it had been slain...” Revelation 17: v. 1: “And there came one of the 7 angels which had the 7 vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither: I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters.” v. 3: So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast,...” Revelation 21: v. 9: “And there came unto me one of the 7 angels which had the 7 vials... and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” v. 10: “And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city...”
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Rosangela]
#99689
05/27/08 06:21 PM
05/27/08 06:21 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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This wouldn’t be surprising in Revelation, would it? The correspondence in Revelation between what John hears the angel say that he will see, and what he actually sees, generally is something different from what the angel said. This is a good point. Is there any reason to suppose this is unique to John?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: vastergotland]
#99696
05/27/08 08:14 PM
05/27/08 08:14 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Rosangela, are you suggesting the great multitude are the only ones in heaven who wear white robes washed in the blood of Jesus? What about all the other people who wear white robes in heaven - are they part of the great multitude, too? Is there just one group of saints in heaven?
Would it be a terrible blow to your beliefs Mike, if it turns out there is just one group? Could you live with that? Could you live in post-sin for eternity in such conditions? Thomas, I'm sorry, after all these years, you don't know me well enough that you have to ask me these questions. I had hoped that you would know my answers without having to ask. It wouldn't bother me in the least if we are all toads in heaven, so long as I am there with Jesus and family and friends. I will croak until my heart is content, and croak some more.
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Rosangela]
#99697
05/27/08 08:20 PM
05/27/08 08:20 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Rosangela, are you suggesting the great multitude are the only ones in heaven who wear white robes washed in the blood of Jesus? What about all the other people who wear white robes in heaven - are they part of the great multitude, too? Is there just one group of saints in heaven? The angel asks John about a specific group of people clothed in white robes, and the group John describes as wearing white robes is the great multitude. There is no way around it. All the phrases which describe the great multitude in John’s vision, Ellen White applies to the 144,000 in GC. We have two possibilities here: 1) either both groups are one and the same, or 2) the 144,000 are a subgroup within the great multitude of all the saved of all eras, so that what applies to the great multitude applies automatically to them. Also, how can we conclude the following two groups are one and the same when the descriptions are nearly opposite? This wouldn’t be surprising in Revelation, would it? The correspondence in Revelation between what John hears the angel say that he will see, and what he actually sees, generally is something different from what the angel said. Revelation 5: v. 5: “And one of the elders said unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda...” v. 6: “And I beheld, and lo... a Lamb as it had been slain...” Revelation 17: v. 1: “And there came one of the 7 angels which had the 7 vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither: I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters.” v. 3: So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast,...” Revelation 21: v. 9: “And there came unto me one of the 7 angels which had the 7 vials... and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” v. 10: “And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city...” Rosangela, what do you make of the differences you cited above? What does it mean to you? PS - What do you make the GC quote I posted above, the one describing 3 concentric circles consisting of 3 different people groups gathered around the throne of God? The "great multitude" makes up the outer most circle of people; whereas, the 144,000 are part of the middle circle. What does this mean to you in light of our current discussion?
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#99710
05/28/08 05:57 PM
05/28/08 05:57 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Rosangela, are you suggesting the great multitude are the only ones in heaven who wear white robes washed in the blood of Jesus? What about all the other people who wear white robes in heaven - are they part of the great multitude, too? Is there just one group of saints in heaven?
Would it be a terrible blow to your beliefs Mike, if it turns out there is just one group? Could you live with that? Could you live in post-sin for eternity in such conditions? Thomas, I'm sorry, after all these years, you don't know me well enough that you have to ask me these questions. I had hoped that you would know my answers without having to ask. It wouldn't bother me in the least if we are all toads in heaven, so long as I am there with Jesus and family and friends. I will croak until my heart is content, and croak some more. And yet you persist in denying in the face of as conclusive evidence as we shall find in a book such as revelation.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: vastergotland]
#99730
05/29/08 03:36 PM
05/29/08 03:36 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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You're right, Thomas, I cannot deny I believe the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are two distinct and separate groups. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the Rosangela's second option turns out to be right - 2) the 144,000 are a subgroup within the great multitude of all the saved of all eras, so that what applies to the great multitude applies automatically to them.
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#99756
05/31/08 04:58 PM
05/31/08 04:58 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Rosangela, what do you make of the differences you cited above? What does it mean to you? Mike, they seem to be, in each case, two different symbols for the same thing. PS - What do you make the GC quote I posted above, the one describing 3 concentric circles consisting of 3 different people groups gathered around the throne of God? The "great multitude" makes up the outer most circle of people; whereas, the 144,000 are part of the middle circle. What does this mean to you in light of our current discussion? There seems to be two subgroups singularized and the third group is the rest of the great multitude.
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Re: The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....
[Re: Tom]
#99757
05/31/08 05:04 PM
05/31/08 05:04 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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This wouldn’t be surprising in Revelation, would it? The correspondence in Revelation between what John hears the angel say that he will see, and what he actually sees, generally is something different from what the angel said. This is a good point. Is there any reason to suppose this is unique to John? This really impressed me in Revelation, and I don't remember seeing this in any other book of the Bible.
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