The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy....

So what is the testimony of Jesus Christ, as this is a characteristic of the true remnant of the Bible. Not only will the true remnant keep all the Ten Commandments, but the true remnant will have the testimony of Jesus.


Revelation 19:10
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."



Here is a explanation I found that is very enlightening:

"..........In both the Old and the New Testaments, God represents His people by a woman. As the bridegroom, He is married to the church. Paul writes, “I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:2).

This is throughout the Bible that this symbolism is used. God says in Jeremiah 6:2, “I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman”. And in Isaiah 51:16, “Say unto Zion, Thou art my people”. The church is called Zion and God compares it with a beautiful woman. In the Old Testament, Israel was the chosen people so often portrayed as being married to God. In the New Testament, the true Israel of God is no longer a nation but a church composed of Jews and Gentiles who receive Christ as their Savior. Therefore, the woman of Revelation 12 shows us the picture-story of the church at the time of Christ. In vs.1, The clothing of sunlight typifies the glorious New Covenant of grace, and the twelve stars represent the twelve apostles. The moon under her feet indicates the fading glory of the Old Covenant in the presence of the true Lamb of God.

In Rev 12:2-5 you find a woman ready to give birth to a baby (which was Jesus) and a dragon ready to devour it. Ordinarily, the dragon is used as a symbol of Satan, but in this case, the devil was working so closely with the Roman power to kill Jesus that the dragon also symbolizes Rome.

How did Jesus escape the diabolical decree of Herod? Joseph and Mary were warned of the danger in a dream and fled to Egypt with the infant. Later, after the death of Herod, they returned and settled in the town of Nazareth.

Even though the devil was foiled in his initial plot to kill Jesus, he did not abandon his purpose. Repeatedly, he sought to take the life of Jesus, and finally, he managed to bring Him to that mockery of a trial where He was tortured, crucified, and buried. But the grave could not contain the Son of God, and on the third day He resurrected. And later, He ascended to His Father in heaven.

With no direct access to Jesus, the dragon (through Rome) now turned his anger against the followers of Christ, the church: “And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child” (Revelation 12:13). Some (Catholics) ‘experts’ ....may tell you this woman is Mary – but it is the church. Was only Mary persecuted? Or were millions of Christians martyred?

Soon pagan Rome yielded to papal Rome, and the persecutions continued with even greater force. Millions died under the terrible inquisitions which sought to eradicate all opposition to the papal system. Historians estimate that during the Dark Ages more that fifty million people laid down their lives rather than yield up their Protestant faith. Revelation 12:14 tells us what the true church did as the pressures of persecution built up to a climax: “And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.” In order to escape extinction, the faithful Protestant refugees fled back into the Alpine mountains and valleys holding onto the true doctrine delivered by Jesus. Groups like the Waldenses, Huguenots, and Albigenses refused to surrender their faith during those centuries of fierce oppression. And then in Rev. 12:6 it says: “And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.”

But the main text is Rev. 12:17 “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”

Let’s break it down:
The dragon is Satan (Rev 12:9) Satan is wroth which means angry, furious
The woman is God’s people, His church (Jer 6:2, Is 51:16 says Zion is God’s people also look at II Corin. 11:2 the church is likened to a bride in marriage)

Satan is going to make war WITH THE REMNANT OF HER SEED
I ask you what is a remnant? A remnant is something usually at the end of something and is usually small, and is exactly in characteristics like the first.
>>>
So Satan is going to direct his attention and anger on the woman (church/God’s people) that is existing at the end of time. I hope you understand and see this.
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Now it goes on to describe this woman (church/God’s people/remnant)
It says they will do two things:
1) keep the commandments of God
2) have the testimony of Jesus Christ (it says they have it – or possess it)
I’m not going to dwell on point #1 – The commandments spoken of here are the Ten Commandments. I still just don’t get how people on this board claim the commandments were done away with. But yet they will turn around and quote 9 of them (all but the Sabbath) which seems to me they have such hatred for it.
I will dwell on point #2 – the testimony of Jesus Christ.

What is THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST. Remember this is a characteristic of the true remnant of the Bible. No only will it keep all the Ten Commandments, but it will have the testimony of Jesus.

The Bible specifically defines this expression for us. The definition is provided by the word of an angel sent all the way from heaven to explain it to John. “I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy” (Revelation 19:10).

The Bible says that the testimony of Jesus is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY. Obviously this is where we get the term Spirit of Prophecy. In this verse, please notice who is described as having the testimony of Jesus, or the spirit of prophecy. Only John’s “brethren” are identified as having it.

There’s more - In Revelation 22:8, 9 John repeats the story of the angel and adds a little more detail. “And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets…worship God.”

John’s brethren were the prophets, and they alone are said to have the spirit of prophecy.

The only ones who had the spirit of prophecy were the prophets themselves. If just knowing prophecy and preaching it could be called the “spirit of prophecy,” then many modern teachers and evangelists might qualify. But the Bible makes it exceedingly clear that it is the actual ability to prophesy. In other words, it is the GIFT of prophecy. Only the prophets had it.

This fact is supported by the Bible, in I Corintians1:5-7. “That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the TESTIMONY OF CHRIST (spirit of prophecy) was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no GIFT; WAITING FOR THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST”.

Here the testimony of Jesus is called a “gift” instead of the “spirit” of prophecy. And the implication is very strong that the gift will be in operation at the return of our Savior.

There are many references to all the gifts of the Spirit, including the gift of prophecy. Paul told the church at Ephesus just how and when the gifts were bestowed: “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men” (Ephesians 4:8). When Jesus returned to heaven He left certain special “gifts” or abilities with His people on earth. They are named: “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers” (Ephesians 4:11).

For what reason did Jesus give these gifts to certain people in the church? “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” (Ephesians 4:12). He did it to build up the believers and strengthen the church. These gifts were to mature and perfect the leaders of the body of Christ as they sought to edify the members.

The next verse tells exactly how long those gifts would be needed in the church. “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the nature of the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:13).

If language has any meaning at all, these words convey one idea very clearly. All the gifts which Christ placed with His church were to continue operating until the very end of time. They would be needed to bring the church to perfection and to the fullness of Christ’s stature.

Are these gifts (mentioned in Ephesians 4:11) in the church today? They should be because they were intended by our Lord to do their sanctifying work right down to the end of time. They should all be seen operating in the churches around us.
Let’s look at the list.

Do we find teachers in most churches today? The answer is yes.
What about pastors and evangelists? Practically all denominations have them.

What about apostles? This word literally means “missionaries,” again we can say that most modern churches qualify on this particular gift.

So far, so good, right? Now, what about prophets? Practically all the churches are silent.
There is hardly not a church that even claims that such a thing has ever been a part of its ministry.

But why? If all the other gifts are necessary, why should prophets not be necessary as well?

It was active in the early church. All the spiritual gifts were very active, according to the book of Acts. “Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon…” (Acts 13:1). Here we have evidence that two of the gifts, teachers and prophets, were a part of the church at Antioch. Then in Acts 21:9 we read that a “man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.” Notice that these four women from one family were appointed by the Spirit to be prophetesses. They had the spirit of prophecy. And they didn’t write a book that was included in the Bible either.

So why is there an absence of this gift – the Spirit of Prophecy – in the churches today?

All the gifts were operating equally in the apostolic age and immediately afterward. But this particular gift seemed to drop out of sight after two or three hundred years into the Christian era. Why? We do not have the same record of it through the ages as we do the other gifts.

The Bible provides the answer. And it is easy to see why most churches try to ignore the absence of this gift in their midst, especially when we discover the reason for its absence.

That post-apostolic period is not the first time that the spirit of prophecy had been removed from among God’s people. The truth is that God was dealing with the church then in the same way He had always dealt with His people. All through the Old Testament God led and instructed them by two divine agencies—the law and the prophets. In Jeremiah 26:4-6: “If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you, To hearken to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you…Then will I make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth”.

THE LAW AND PROPHETS! The two go together. Not only do they refer to the writings of Scripture, but they also refer to the two means of divine guidance. “Keep my law and hear my prophets” was the requirement of God. And the Bible says that if they rejected one of those divine agencies, God would remove the other also, because they were actually rejecting His leadership. On numerous occasions the children of Israel turned away from the law of God, only to find the prophetic voice silenced as well.

Lamentations 2:9, “The law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD”.

Ezekiel 7:26 says: “Then shall they seek a vision of the prophet; but the law shall perish from the priest, and counsel from the ancients”.

And in Proverbs 29:18 it has the very same principle: “Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he”.

In times of open disobedience of His law, God used the prophets only to rebuke and to call back, not for counsel or guidance. When they turned from the law, they understood that they were also forfeiting the only other avenue by which they could receive divine direction.

In his apostasy Saul cried out, “God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams” (1 Samuel 28:15).

A classic example of this is found in Ezekiel 20:3, this is when the people came to inquire after God’s counsel. “Son of man, speak unto the elders of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the LORD God; Are ye come to enquire of me? As I live, saith the LORD God, I will not be enquired of by you.” Why wouldn’t God answer them in this case? Verses 11-13 give the answer: “And I gave them my statutes, and showed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; AND MY SABBATHS THEY GREATLY POLLUTED: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.”

In this case the reason God gave no divine direction was because they had forsaken His law and had broken His Sabbath. It was the violation of the fourth commandment which especially provoked the displeasure of God.

Now, why did the gift of prophecy disappear after two or three centuries into the Christian church. Better yet, what happened to God’s law at the very same time the gift of prophecy disappeared from the church? The truth is that the history of that early period shows that the Sabbath was set aside in favor of the pagan day of the sun. A compromise with heathen sun-worship led to an open rejection of the true seventh-day Sabbath. And when this happened, God did exactly what He had always done before when His people turned from His holy law; He withdrew the guidance of the spirit of prophecy. Prophets disappeared from the church.

A BIGGER QUESTION – Is there reason to believe that when the church restores the law and begins to observe the Sabbath again, and is not in violation of blatant disregard of any of the commandments, that God will also restore the gift of prophecy to the church? The answer is YES. This takes us right back to the main verse I used…Revelation 12:17 “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

Can you see it in the verse? The law, so long neglected, is right back where it belongs—in the church. And hand-in-hand with the law is the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy. Think of it! THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS GET BACK TOGETHER AGAIN IN THE LAST REMNANT PIECE OF GOD’S LAST DAY REMNANT CHURCH! All the gifts are again operating as they did in the days before the apostasy.

Remember that a remnant has to be exactly like the original except that it is on the very end, and it is a small piece. This fantastic prophecy reveals that there will be an end- time restoration of the faith of the apostles. The same Sabbath will be restored. The same gifts of the spirit will be manifested, and all the great apostolic doctrines will be stripped of the effects of 1,260 years of The Dark Ages and the Roman Papacy’s distortion of the Bible.

This church is identified again by John in these words: “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:12). Do not overlook the fact that these commandment-keeping saints are empowered to do what they do only by trusting Jesus. Don’t believe that obedience to the law is works, obedience motivated by love is true righteousness by faith. John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments”.

This gift of prophecy or Spirit of Prophecy, that the SDA church believes to be manifested in the writings of Ellen G. White. Her writings DO NOT supercede the Bible – they are a ‘lesser light”. Her writings point people back to the Bible, not to her or her writings. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20). Though her writings are inspired by the same Spirit, they do not add to nor take away from the Bible, but they are like a magnifying glass which bring out the beauty and truth of the Word.

It’s called the ‘testimony of Jesus’ because it comes from Jesus and he gives it to an angel and the angel gives it to John (a prophet). Rev. 1:1 “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John”......the Bible says this “gift” of prophecy, or Spirit of Prophecy will be active in the church in the end-time. If SDA’s out there have their doubts, for whatever reason, of the validity of Ellen White – they need to consider this and study this subject....

One of the BIG problems that we’re having in Adventism today is that no one wants to listen to the Spirit of Prophecy. We don’t want to read the Spirit of Prophecy because it “steps all over our toes”. The SDA church is Laodicean as we possibly can be. In Revelation 3:17 one of the problems with the church of Laodicea is that it is “blind”. And it says we don’t even realize it. But we’re “blind”. The church is the body of Christ. What part of the body would a prophet be. The eyes, because the prophet “sees”. In I Samuel 9:9 it says: “(Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.) Prophets were called Seers.

Is it possible that one of the problems with Laodicea is that it is IGNORING or paying no attention to the Seer, the prophet among them......

And the other Sabbath keeping churches only fit the criteria of the commandments – they do not have the Spirit of Prophecy, a gift of the church, among them. The “testimony of Jesus” is not just explaining prophecy, etc…....."excerpted from piece by David R.

Regarding the testimony of Jesus, that would seem to mean that which Jesus said, which is to say, His testimony. That is, one has the testimony of Jesus if one's testimony is the same as Jesus'.

What was Jesus' testimony?



NIV translates this as:



There's a nice SOP article, of which this is a portion:



This whole article is beautiful. It's called "God made Manifest in Christ."

It brings out that the mission, or testimony, of Jesus was the revelation of God's character. So if we reveal God's character, as Jesus did, then we have the testimony of Jesus.

Regarding the testimony of Jesus being the spirit of prophecy, the spirit of something is its essence. "Prophecy" is often understood as having to do with predicting the future, but in Scripture it's meaning is simple to declare truth. The testimony of Jesus is the essence of truth.



The work of the SDA church is to prepare the world for the coming of Christ. This is done by making known the truth about God.

The phrases "testimony of Jesus" and the "spirit of prophecy" come from the Revelation. To understand what they mean, therefore, we must study them in their immediate context. Here is how certain brothers explained it in 1914:


The following insights are also helpful:

But God by the spirit of prophecy elevated the mind of Jacob above his natural feelings. {3SG 172.2}

It is the voice of Christ that speaks to us through the Old Testament. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10. {PP 366.3}

We have the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is the spirit of prophecy. {TM 114.1}

Silas, Paul's companion in labor, was a tried worker, gifted with the spirit of prophecy .... {AA 203.1}

The spirit of prophecy was upon this man of God [Simeon], and while Joseph and Mary stood by, wondering at his words .... {DA 55.3}

Enoch faithfully rehearsed to the people all that God had revealed to him by the spirit of prophecy. {3SG 56.1}

Concerning the gift as manifested through herself, Sister White writes:

The Holy Ghost is the author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy. {3SM 30.3}

But dreams from the Lord are classed in the word of God with visions and are as truly the fruits of the spirit of prophecy as visions. {1T 569.2}

But the spirit of prophecy speaks only the truth. {4T 13.1}

In his teaching Elder _____ showed that the Spirit of prophecy has an important part to act in the establishment of the truth. When binding off his work, he called for me . . . to speak to the people.--Letter 400, 1906. {Ev 257.4}

We must follow the directions given through the Spirit of prophecy. {GW 308.1}

As the Lord has manifested Himself through the spirit of prophecy, past, present, and future have passed before me. {5T 671.3}

1) That no other churches claim the gift of prophesy is a statement made in ignorance IMO.

2) That keeping the sabbath is a requirement for the gift of prophesy to be in function does not even agree with adventist history. Ellens first prophesies are much before there were any seventh day adventists.

3) What you are doing here is merely to place adventism as a group as holier than the rest of the churches. Maybe it will help some adventists self esteem but beyond that, I do not think it will be helpfull at all.

4) Tying the gift of prophesy to the keeping of the sabbath should mean that Israel around Jesus days should have been swamped with prophets, you won't find such meticulious sabbathkeepers as the pious pharisees anywhere. Yet the many prophets seem to have come only after pentecost.

5) Refering to Ellen as proof that adventism has the gift of prophesy manifested is rather a sign of failiure. Not on Ellens part but on ours. What law have we abandoned so that God again withdrew the gift of prophesy at the death of Ellen? For the adventist church has been deprived of a prophets for the last 100 years, right? Or is there an adventist prophet alive that I have not heard of?

6) Despite what you said earlier, here you did manage to define the Spirit of Prophecy as Ellen or her work. Yet you earlier defined it as the gift of prophecy. How do you want it. Is the Spirit of Prophecy Ellen/Ellens writings or is it the gift of prophecy?

7) One gets the impression that the sabbath commandment is the greatest of them all in this statement of yours. And yet...

Consider this also:

Richard

What would your suggestion be to fix this problem you see with our church today?

Simply put, we must be clear in teaching them that the it is the voice of Christ that speaks to us through the Old Testament and New Testament and continues today in the writings of EGW and is the spirit of prophecy. Those who hear it are believers, apostles, prophets, but are not of themselves the voice of Christ as they are only passing the message they receive through the spirit of prophecy.

Amen! to the first sentence. However, in regards to the second, if received in faith, as we pass on the message received from Christ, we are the voice of Christ to those who are, epistles, as Scripture puts is, also "lively stones," built on the foundation, which is Christ.

Also I would add that the messages the Lord has sent this church are not limited to the Spirit of Prophecy.

TE: Also I would add that the messages the Lord has sent this church are not limited to the Spirit of Prophecy.

MM: I suppose you are referring to authors like Jones and Waggoner. If so, do you place them in the same category as Moses, David, Paul, John, and Ellen? Can the following be said of J&W?

The Holy Ghost is the author of the Scriptures and of the Spirit of Prophecy. {3SM 30.3}

But the spirit of prophecy speaks only the truth. {4T 13.1}

We must follow the directions given through the Spirit of prophecy. {GW 308.1}

I don't think catergorizing those whom God uses is the important thing. The important thing is to lay hold of the truth that messengers of God bring.



I hasten to add that the messengers whom God has sent to this church, and the messages sent, should by no means be limited to Jones and Waggoner.

TE: I don't think catergorizing those whom God uses is the important thing.

MM: Apparently it is important to God. Authority is needful. God appoints and ordains certain people to serve as His authoritative voice on earth. Yes, He employs other people to speak for Him, but not in the same authoritative way.

Again, do you think J&W fall under the same authoritative category as Moses, David, Paul, John, and Ellen?

The question for you Mike is, why would you think there was a difference between J&W compared with the others? The same argument you use to join Ellen to the others on the list, on what foundations would you not use that argument on J&W aswell?

Personally, I wonder if J&W would not be better compared with Balaam, son of Beor.

Thomas, J&W never claimed to have the gift of prophecy. Ellen white did. Also, I'm not sure I understand your last statement. J&W and Balaam?

Truth is it's own authority. God doesn't want us to serve Him on the basis of His authority, but because we are convinced He is right. This is why Jesus, on the road to Emaus, taught the disciples accompanying Him from the Scriptures, rather than simply reveal who He was.





This sounds like Catholicism.




Ellen White, writing of J&W wrote:



Here a prophet of the Lord declares their message to be the "word of God." Is it possible for something to be more authoritative than the "word of God"?

Have you read J&W? There's not much of Balaam to read, so it would be difficult to make a comparison.

I think the Bible is pretty clear that the Remnant will have the spirit of prophecy to the same degree that they keep the commandments of God. All who keep the commandments of God should also have the spirit of prophecy.

Neither did David claim prophethood as far as I know. Yet he is on your list of comparison.

Balaam, a prophet who got something right as an exception to the rule rather than the other way around.

Thomas, good point. But David certainly manifested the authoritative gift of prophecy. Is there any evidence J&W did? Tom seems to think so. I see what you mean about Balaam and J&W. Another good point. In the end, J&W apostatized. Too bad, because they really did have some good things to say; it's just that some sifting is necessary, which I find tedious.

TE: This sounds like Catholicism.

MM: In what way? Didn't Jesus invest the Church with authority? Isn't it the voice of God on earth when in general conference?

God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of committing is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has invested in His church in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work.--9T 260, 261 (1909). {LDE 56.1}

God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for he who does this despises the voice of God.--AA 164 (1911). {LDE 56.2}

As a prophet, EGW recognized J&W's message as the "word of God," as the beginning of the loud cry, and the latter rain. By the way, she referred to them as "prophets" by quoting a Scripture reference using the word "prophets."

But, once again, the title or category that one holds is not the important thing. The important thing is if one has a message from the Lord. That's all the authority one needs.

During the time that EGW was endorsing them, I am aware of only one theological point that she corrected either Jones or Waggoner on. Waggoner was teaching that because Christ had perfect faith, He could not sin.

That's it. One correction out of thousands of pages that they have written.

For a couple of years, EGW, Jones and Waggoner preached together. She would have had ample opportunity to correct their theology there, if there was anything to correct.

I think "understanding" would be better than "sifting."

Are you familiar with the "kingly power" statements of EGW, and the problems that she addressed in the early 1900's? This speaks to the issue.

Yes, it does. But when the church in GC is abiding in Jesus it is the voice of God. Do you agree?

Sure. Of course, this isn't limited to the GC.

I agree that there is an organized church which has a special mission. IOW, the Seventh-day Adventist church is special. And the leadership plays a special role in this regard, which is why the reception of J&W by leadership is such a big thing (EGW wrote more on this subject than virtually any other subject, including, for example, the Sabbath). However, we are not dependent upon authority in order to receive truth.

The truth must be authoritative, right? It is not wise or safe to "receive truth" which does not bear the stamp of divine approval or authority. We can only trust the writings of J&W so far as they are endorsed by the SOP or the Church in GC. Everything that they wrote which was not specifically endorsed is suspect at best, and heresy at worst. And, of course, everything that they wrote which was specifically condemned is heresy.

I assume that you never read any books on theology lacking the GC imprematur, nor ever use any bible commentaries except for the adventist bible commentary.
I think truth is truth no matter who happened to write or publish or endorse it. How do we know the true from the false? Without the Spirits gift of discernment, we dont. Without the Spirits assistance, you can walk away with herecy from the bible or Ellens writings or any other source which may have the approval of some people you trust to tell the truth about divine approval.
Then, it is always wise to excersise caution when (if) reading the writings of identified apostates. Error just doesnt one day knock on the door and walk in, it sneaks in and infiltrates a little at a time. Who can tell when J&W passed the line between christian faith and panentheism, who can tell when it had infiltrated enough to trap the unwary who follows in their books. Precaution seems at its place.

That is why these thing must be spiritually discerned my brother, and you must pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth...

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If we believed this, we would never read anything except books written by Ellen White, or specifically endorsed by her.

Ellen White told us that God had more truth to communicate to us. How can we know it's true, since she's dead? If we followed your advice, we wouldn't accept any new truth, since she's not around to endorse it.

We can know truth because of the Holy Spirit.



God is not stingy with truth. He gives truth to anyone who is willing and able to receive it, according to their ability to understand what He has to give. God does not only give truth to Adventists.

How can we discern what is truth? By the Holy Spirit.

When I first read The Desire of Ages, I knew nothing of Ellen White. I read the book, and knew the book was written by someone who was inspired.

Dear saints of the living God I`d like to say unto you happy sabbath God Bless you and plz lets not 4get Proverbs 3 v 1-6 lets trust in him for he will direct our paths

My neighbor said the same thing about Steps to Christ, and she knew nothing about Adventist.....

Tom and Thomas, we should be able to agree that the truths necessary to be like Jesus are available to us now and forever, and that they are contained within the Bible. We should also be able to agree that whatever truths this or that person did not have the chance to reveal to us are not necessary for our salvation. Additionally, we should be able to agree that we are not waiting for God to share new light that is essential to our salvation. Everything we need to know to be like Jesus has already been revealed to us in the Bible.

There's such a thing as present truth. If present truth is rejected, that can have a negative impact on one's salvation.

But hasn't "present truth" been available to the church, to us, for over 100 hundreds now? Or, has God been withholding certain truths to be revealed later on, truths He has not yet entrusted the church with?

Yes, there's more truth to come. The SOP made this clear. 1888, for example, she termed as such, calling it the "beginning of the latter rain." That was just the beginning.

Tom, these truths you are referring to, will they be necessary for salvation? Will people at the end of time be judged by them? Will they be necessary for developing character? Will they be necessary to stand before God without a Mediator after probation closes?

The point about present truth is that if present truth is rejected, that is a sign that one is resisting the Spirit of God. It's not that one must believe this particular thing to be saved; one must have a relationship with Jesus Christ to be saved, and if He is saying a certain thing at a certain time (present truth; e.g. "get on the ark") then those who are saved will heed the present truth message.

Indeed, it is true that the truth necessary to be like Jesus is available to us now in the bible. Also, due to another conversation I had this weekend, I happen to know that Ellen endorces it in COL chapter 3 for those of you for whom the bible is not clear enough. Simply stated, to be like Jesus, to be like the Father, we must live the sermon on the mount. We must love our enemy and pray for those who persecute us. This is the perfection Jesus seeks in us.

There are those who will be saved who have not had access to Scripture at all.

Does this apply to the final generation?

Does what? That people will be saved who had not access to Scripture? If so, why are you asking this?

Just curious if you think people will be translated alive who never heard of Jesus or the Bible. If not, why not?

No, I don't think this is possible. As to why not, the message which prepares one for being ready for Christ's coming, of necessity, involves Jesus Christ in a specific way.

The Holy Spirit is the voice of Jesus, so every soul has a chance to hear Him and be saved....who do you think told them what to write in the scriptures and what to prophecise.....?

Tom, what is the difference between the message now and the message just before probation closes? Isn't it the same message? Since 1844 there have been people who were ready for translation, right? The fact Jesus did not return before they died makes no difference so far as the message is concerned.

The only difference between them and the 144,000 is the fact the latter group will have their sins blotted out while they are alive, and the fact they go through the great time of trouble. But the others were just as qualified to do it, too. In fact, the thief on the cross was just as qualified. Do you agree?

Since that message hasn't come yet, I can't give a definitive answer, but the 1888 message was its beginning.



No. If it were the same message, Jesus would have come long ago. Daniells commented:





No. Translation is a corporate event.



I'm not sure what you're wanting to say here.



No, this isn't the only difference. The status of the world is much difference, for one thing. For another, the content of the message being preached is far, far different. The message to be preached is a message which will "fill the earth with its glory." The beginning of this message began to shine in 1888, but it was quashed, and did not develop.



No. To be qualified includes hearing the message which qualifies, which the thief on the cross did not have the opportunity to do.

I heard it explained that the concept of people being without sin in this side of Jesus return is akin to the catholic concept of purgatory come to us through the Wesley brothers and originating from the Platonic view that the body is evil while the soul is pure. It was quite an interesting idea, though not one that all adventist take kindly towards.

Thomas, I'm not following you. Please explain what you mean. Thank you.

The greek philosophers of old thought that the human soul was pure but unfortunately locked in a corrupt and evil body. Thus death was a release of the soul from its prison. This was in the medieval times incorporated into the churches teaching with the thought that the pure soul had been more or less fouled by the corruption of the body. Therefore purgatory was invented, where the soul stay to be cleansed until it is pure enough to encounter God's throne. How much cleansing the soul needs of course depends on how much the body has had occation to defile it. Comes reformation and later the Wesley brothers. They ponder like this, if a man asks for forgiveness he is clean and pure until he sins again. But if he is killed right after asking for Gods forgiveness, then he will die a pure man. But what if the man is not killed but through Gods power manages to continue living without sin for a while before dying a pure man? More water flows through the creek and adventism comes around. The concept is evolving further with the addition that not only is the soul of the forgiven man pure and holy, the holiness like some mystical essence cant be contained in the soul but flows out and impregnates the body of the believer aswell. This teaching has been known to us as the holy flesh movement. But wait, holy flesh teaching was forcefully resisted in adventism by at least one of its founders. Im sure you can guess who. Not only holy flesh teaching but its forebears aswell. But not all in high position in adventism wished to root out the holy flesh teaching by its roots, so when the fruits and branches of the tree were disposed and the purging of the stem started (Wesleys teaching as given above), this lonesome messenger of truth had to be obivated. Now, they must thread carefully about this since this person after all was said and done wasn't just anybody. But they reaconed that Australia might be a safe place of quaranteen. Therefore, because of the unwillingness to go to the root of the matter, the soil where holy flesh teaching could grow is still fertile and plenty of weeds grow in it, to the detriment of our church.

This is about how I was told. And I recon forum members will not enjoy reading it.

Tom, the message has been the same since Enoch walked into heaven without dying. The fact not everybody walks into heaven has nothing to do with the message. The problem is with people, not with the message. There is nothing mysterious about it.

The idea that God is withholding certain elements of the message that are necessary for the corporate church to be translated alive is unfounded. The thief on the cross was just as ready to be translated alive as anyone of the 144,000. Besides, the 144,000 are not all spiritual giants. Some of them barely make it. Here's how she describes it:

GC 618, 619, 622
As Satan accuses the people of God on account of their sins, the Lord permits him to try them to the uttermost. Their confidence in God, their faith and firmness, will be severely tested. As they review the past, their hopes sink; for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. {GC 618.3}

If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached. {GC 619.1}

They feel that had they always employed all their ability in the service of Christ, going forward from strength to strength, Satan's forces would have less power to prevail against them. {GC 619.2}

God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected. {GC 621.1}

Those who exercise but little faith now, are in the greatest danger of falling under the power of satanic delusions and the decree to compel the conscience. And even if they endure the test they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement. {GC 622.1}

TV: Therefore, because of the unwillingness to go to the root of the matter, the soil where holy flesh teaching could grow is still fertile and plenty of weeds grow in it, to the detriment of our church.

MM: Are you talking about the book Steps to Christ? In it she describes the sanctified life. Is this the remnants of holy flesh you're referring to?

No, nothing I heard gives me reason to believe that Ellen would support it in any of the books she wrote herself, although I am sure there are compilations that do. But Steps to Christ is no compilation, right?

Right. But which compilations make it sound like she believed in a form of holy flesh?

Im sure we could find one if we look long enough among those sda who are today closest to it. Anyhow, it appears either I or my source would have been wrong about this scenario.

What did you hear about it? In what way did it imply Sister White believed in a modified form of holy flesh? Are you referring to Rosangela's idea that our flesh nature gradually stops tempting us from within to be unlike Jesus?

Look, I did not write or imply that Ellen would have beleived in any form of holy flesh but rather that she resisted it. But that is entierly irrelevant for wether people can and do compile her writings in such a way as to make it appear as if she did. People mangle her writings is whatever way best help whatever agenda they happen to have and I have to date not found a single case free from this when context has been consulted. Just to make an example I recently had, when some people claimed that Ellen supports the idea that Jesus second return is on hold until a people (sda's/faithfull sda's/the 144000) perfectly follow the law, taken way out of context in COL chapter 3. Even a surface reading of the chapter shows that Ellen had no such thing in mind. Fact is, Ellen is so missused among adventists, the majority of whom are in good standing, that nothing nobody claims about her can be safely taken by the claimers word.

So to conclude, if there is any minorly deviating teaching, any questionable concept or even devilish lie straight from hell found among adventists, you will find it supported with cleverly quoted Ellen sentences or words.

The message is not the same. If the problem were one only of people, there would be no hope of Christ's ever coming, but people are no better now than they were 150 years ago.

But if there is a message with power, and that message has not been heeded, then there is hope. All that needs to happen is for the message to be published.



Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people the message, but that will not always be the case, because at some point the message will "light the whole earth with its glory." It's been kept away from the world, but that will change some day, and when it does, Jesus' coming will be very near.



Not at all. EGW stated the importance of the message in relation to Jesus' coming on a number of occasions. I cited one instance above.



Not at all. If this were the case, Jesus Christ could have come long ago.



I'm not seeing how you get what you stated from what she wrote, but no matter, I agree that they need not be "spiritual giants," as their distinguishing feature is that they have believed a message. The power is in the gospel (which means "message"); the gospel is "the power of God ... for all who believe."

Thomas, it is true that Sister White confirmed the biblical idea that God will perfect 144,000 Sabbath-keepers during the little time of trouble.

Tom, I totally disagree with the idea that God is withholding a message necessary to be translated alive or to perfect a corporate group ready for translation. For the sake of discussion, though, what is the message? You say it started to be sounded and ended with corporate rejection of it.

Exactly 144000 of them? Not 144001 or 143999? Where might she have made such a confirmation?

Yes, Jesus will number and seal exactly 144,000 saints, exactly 12,000 each from 12 tribes. That's what it says in the Bible and the SOP. The numbers used in Daniel and the Revelation are always literal. Yes, the thing associated with the number is symbolic, but not the number itself. In this case, the 12 "tribes" are symbolic.

CET 58
Soon we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spoke the time, He poured upon us the Holy Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God, as Moses' did when he came down from Mount Sinai. {CET 58.1}

You think the 144,000 will only be Jews?

Mike,

So you classify my view as a modified form of holy flesh? Yet neither you nor anybody else has shown that the only way to be tempted from within is to be tempted by sinful tendencies.

Here's the context of my statement:

"Yes, Jesus will number and seal exactly 144,000 saints, exactly 12,000 each from 12 tribes. That's what it says in the Bible and the SOP. The numbers used in Daniel and the Revelation are always literal. Yes, the thing associated with the number is symbolic, but not the number itself. In this case, the 12 "tribes" are symbolic."

Do you disagree that the number is literal and that the tribes are symbolic? Do you disagree with the precedence?

Sorry about the implication. No, I do not classify your view of transformed human nature as a modified form of holy flesh. You've made it clear it is not.

Exactly 24 elders on exactly 24 thrones with the area light up by exactly 7 torches (Wonder why there would be need for torch light before the throne of God who is Himself light?) and with them exactly four creatures with exactly six wings und so weiter... We will have to disagree regarding this Mike.

Thanx, Thomas. But do you disagree with the premise - that every number used in D&R is a literal number, and that the thing associated with it is symbolic?

It is my view, and not mine alone, that the number 144000 is equally symbolical with the tribes list that follows it. It has been noted that the thousands of Israel is a phrase refering to the tribes at arms. One thousand being a military unit. 12 thousand times 12 thus would identify the full strength of Israel. Israel being the people of God and today consisting not primarily of ethnic jews but of all of those who follow the Lamb whereever he goes. It then follows that the 144000 is symbolising christian soldiers marching as to war. Although this cannot be drawn to strictly considering that our Commander does not do war the same way humans do war. Here we can also see how the countless multitude fit in, namely, they are the very same people but seen after final victory has been proclaimed.

It says there are:
a)12,000 from 12 tribes
comprise of
b)males
c)virgins

You think a), b) and c) are symbolic, but the 144,000 is literal? No, I see no sense in this. It seems your only basis for asserting this is because that's what the text says. But the text says these are all males every bit as much as it says there are 144,000.

There's another reason the idea there are exactly 144,000 doesn't make sense. The 144,000 are comprised of those who respond to the last message God gives regarding His character. (reference following) Suppose there are more than 144,000 who respond? What will God do with the extras?



I long for this message!

Discerner: This appears to be basically in agreement with Prof Stefanovic's book, "Revelation of Jesus Christ", with his explanation of Revelation 7. It is hard to comprehend the possibility of gathering 12,000 Jews from each of the 12 tribes of Israel for two reasons; 1) Two of the tribes have not existed in over 2000 years; and 2) the Jews from all of the tribes have been scattered all over the world for almost the last 2000 years. Another consideration is the inclusion of the Gentiles...the 'spiritual Jews'.

Chapter 7:1-7 appears to follow immediately the outpouring of the sixth seal in Chapter 6, but prior to the destruction imposed by the seven angels with the seven trumpets of Chapter 8. It appears that the 144,000 are sealed against the destruction of the seven angels. Then in verse 9 of Chapter 7, it refers to a 'throng no man could number' as being before the throne of the 'Lamb of God', which is most likely an inference to the redeemed in heaven after the resurrection. Since those in the grave will not precede those still alive when Jesus comes, it stands to reason that the 144,000 are part of the 'throng no man can number'. As such, possibly the 144,000 is symbolic in that it represents the composition of the military combined units of the Israelite army that fought for Israel against their enemies as a type, and the anti-type would be the army of God that spiritually fights against our enemies...the prince of darkness and those who follow him.

God bless!
Discerner

Yes, I found Mr Stefanovic book to be quite interesting.

This thread is discussing the SOP, and the 144,000 are the ultimate beneficiaries of the SOP. It seems evident to me that the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are two separate and distinct groups. Note the following passage:

[1]Nearest the throne are those who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, but who, plucked as brands from the burning, have followed their Saviour with deep, intense devotion. [2]Next are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith. [3]And beyond is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, . . . before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." Revelation 7:9. Their warfare is ended, their victory won. They have run the race and reached the prize. The palm branch in their hands is a symbol of their triumph, the white robe an emblem of the spotless righteousness of Christ which now is theirs. {GC 665.2}

She describes three groups forming three concentric circles around the throne of God. The first group is closest to the throne, then the second, and finally the third group is the furthest from the throne of God. The 144,000 are included in the second group; whereas, the third group is the Great Multitude. Thus, they cannot be one and the same group.

The second group is composed of two groups. "Next are [1] those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and [2] the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith." The first one is referring to the 144,000.

Based on this text and interpretation as provided by you Mike, God is a respector of persons on the very day when all sin is finally defeated. I do not think Ellen would agree with you about this.

Based on the thread title, it could at most be said that this thread is discussing among else Ellens writings. Neither the testimony of Jesus nor the spirit of prophecy equals nor has ever been equal to neither Ellen as a person or her writings. But you already knew that of course.

Thomas, how do you feel about the fact Peter, James, and John were part of Jesus' inner circle? Was He a respecter of persons because the other disciples were not a part of His inner circle? Also, what about the temple and the 144,000 in the following passage?

EW 18
Mount Zion was just before us, and on the mount was a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies. And I saw the little ones climb, or, if they chose, use their little wings and fly, to the top of the mountains and pluck the never-fading flowers. There were all kinds of trees around the temple to beautify the place: the box, the pine, the fir, the oil, the myrtle, the pomegranate, and the fig tree bowed down with the weight of its timely figs--these made the place all over glorious. And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised His lovely voice and said, "Only the 144,000 enter this place," and we shouted, "Alleluia." {EW 18.2}

Revelation
3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.
21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Jesus was and is a human, and while walking the dusty roads of Israel sertainly had human limitations. Presumably also regarding how many closest friends he could have at a time. The Father, and perhaps Jesus in his glorification, suffer no such limitations.

As for your quotes, I fail to see why they would be a problem. The identification I gave above is not in conflict with them.

TV: Based on this text and interpretation as provided by you Mike, God is a respector of persons on the very day when all sin is finally defeated. I do not think Ellen would agree with you about this.

MM: Arranging the saints around His throne in the order described in the quote I posted does not mean God is a respecter of persons. Nor does giving the 144,000 exclusive access to the temple in the New Earth mean He is a respecter of persons. Sister White agrees.

Considering that the 144000 are not some exclusive group separated from other believers, there is no trouble.

But in the temple they are separated from other saints. Is that a problem?

PS - Did you happen to notice in the quote I posted that the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are not one and the same group?

The saints ARE the temple as we read in the quote from revelation you also supplied. Saints no less than any other humans can be outside of themselves. A saint being outside of the temple is a contradiction in terms.

I noticed and I disagree.

MM, you have separated the 144,000 from the 'group without number', which is readily understood. My point was that they did not precede those who were part of the first resurrection, if the interpretation of the 144,000 is literal as opposed to symbolic. Therein lies a conundrum. A case can be made that possibly the 144,000 are both...symbolic as to application and literal as to disposition.

In regard to the term 'saints', how would you apply it to the writings of Paul where he addresses the members of the churches as 'saints', i.e., Eph. 1:1 says, "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" This is repeated to the church in Rome, Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi and Colosse. It appears that the followers of Christ are considered 'saints'.

God bless!
Bert

Thomas, you lost me. I'm not sure what you're talking about. What do you agree with and what do you disagree with? Here are the points I have made, with some additional elaboration:

1. The 144,000 is a literal number of Christians who will be numbered and sealed during the investigative judgment of the living.

2. The 12 different tribes or names symbolize 12 different character traits. Christians will be numbered and sealed according to their predominate traits of character. There will be 12,000 in each tribe or trait of character.

3. They will experience Jacob's Time of Trouble during the outpouring of the seven last plagues, and will be translated alive when Jesus arrives.

4. They have exclusive access to the temple in the New Earth. This temple is a literal building located on the summit of Mount Zion, which is somewhere outside the walls of New Jerusalem.

5. The Great Multitude is a different group of people. They will be part of the general first resurrection when Jesus arrives.

And a new point I haven't made yet,

6. A special resurrection will occur after probation closes and before Jesus arrives. It consists of two groups of people. It is described in the following passage.

LDE 271
Graves are opened, and "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth . . . awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2). All who have died in the faith of the third angel's message come forth from the tomb glorified to hear God's covenant of peace with those who have kept His law. "They also which pierced Him" (Rev. 1:7), those that mocked and derided Christ's dying agonies, and the most violent opposers of His truth and His people, are raised to behold Him in His glory, and to see the honor placed upon the loyal and obedient.--GC 636, 637 (1911). {LDE 271.2}

Bert,

Do you agree with what I posted above, in my previous post #99430?

Also, yes, the title "saints" is simply a term that denotes born again believers.

I in turn am not sure what you are unsure about. I thought I was clear enough. No. Clear disagree.Never heard of such an idea.Is this where you lost track? The quote from revelation aswell as many other passages from the epistles make clear that the temple in the new earth is the saints and not a literal building.
Ephesians 2:20-22
2 Corinthians 6:15-17
1 Corinthians 6:18-20
Revelation 21:22I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.Disagree, as explained in previous posts.Eh...

Thomas, thank you for making it clear what you believe. Regarding the temple in the New Earth, I take it you also disagree with Sister White.

PS - Actually, I don't understand the "Eh..." at the end of your last post.

[quote=Mountain Man]Thomas, you lost me. I'm not sure what you're talking about. What do you agree with and what do you disagree with? Here are the points I have made, with some additional elaboration:

1. The 144,000 is a literal number of Christians who will be numbered and sealed during the investigative judgment of the living.

Bert: I believe that the 144,000 is a symbolic number, and the reason I believe it is symbolic is because the 12 different tribes that constitute the 144,000 are symbolic. I feel that a symbolic make-up of the 12 tribes cannot then constitute a literal group of 144,000. Either they are both literal, or they are both symbolic. Based on research of scripture and reference material, it seems to be more important to recognize that the 'number of 144,000' refers more to what they are, and what they represent, than their numbers or who they are. In other words, their character, which is the basis for them to be sealed in the first place. John's reference to 'being sealed' seems to be a reiteration of what happened to Israel in Ezekiel's time (Ez. 9).

2. The 12 different tribes or names symbolize 12 different character traits. Christians will be numbered and sealed according to their predominate traits of character. There will be 12,000 in each tribe or trait of character.

Bert: I differ in my understanding of the 12 tribes. The reason for the sealing is to identify those who belong to God. Sealing endows ownership, and by sealing in the end time, God is sealing His own against the 'time of tribulation' and other events that will occur just prior to Christ's coming. Obviously, the sealing involves character traits, but I don't believe that there are any assignations by traits of character, only that they possess those traits necessary for salvation.

3. They will experience Jacob's Time of Trouble during the outpouring of the seven last plagues, and will be translated alive when Jesus arrives.

Bert: I generally agree. They will experience the 'time of tribulation' that will come upon the earth in the very last days, as well as the seven last plagues. They will also experience the coming of Jesus Christ in all His glory, and will be changed 'in the twinkling of an eye'.

4. They have exclusive access to the temple in the New Earth. This temple is a literal building located on the summit of Mount Zion, which is somewhere outside the walls of New Jerusalem.

Bert: I have no knowledge of this thought. Could you furnish a scriptural reference? That seems to be an interesting premise to explore.

5. The Great Multitude is a different group of people. They will be part of the general first resurrection when Jesus arrives.

Bert: I disagree with this assessment. According to 1 Thess. 4:15-17, the 'dead in Christ' will rise, and together with those 'still alive' will be 'caught up in the air' to meet Jesus. Those who will be still alive will include the 144,000. They will all go to heaven together. This is the first resurrection.

And a new point I haven't made yet,

6. A special resurrection will occur after probation closes and before Jesus arrives. It consists of two groups of people. It is described in the following passage.

LDE 271
Graves are opened, and "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth . . . awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2). All who have died in the faith of the third angel's message come forth from the tomb glorified to hear God's covenant of peace with those who have kept His law. "They also which pierced Him" (Rev. 1:7), those that mocked and derided Christ's dying agonies, and the most violent opposers of His truth and His people, are raised to behold Him in His glory, and to see the honor placed upon the loyal and obedient.--GC 636, 637 (1911). {LDE 271.2}

Bert: I agree with these statements. The ones who 'pierced Him' are the very few who might experience three deaths.

Bert

I guess you could translate it in this context to something like a sceptical "Okeey", or a "yea, right..."

Thomas, I take it then you disagree with Sister White's view on these two matters (the temple and the special resurrection). No problem. Thanx for sharing.

Bert, thank you for sharing your views. We'll know the truth about it soon enough, at least I hope so, that is, I hope Jesus will return within my lifetime. Regarding the temple in the New Earth, the clearest information on it is the SOP. That's why it came up on this thread. See quotes posted above.

Also, where in the prophecies of D&R are the numbers used anything but literal?

MM, I agree with you that the closeness of Christ's coming again can be almost discerned. There was an article in the newspaper this morning lamenting the weak responses to pleas for donations to various charities that serve areas in which a disaster has occurred. The consensus of opinion of the cause of the weak response is that there is one major disaster after another, and people are de-sensitized and numb from the overwhelming impact of these terrible disasters. Of course, as Christians, we have been warned that these things must come about right before Christ returns.

Your reference to numbers being literal. The 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel is not literal per se, but rather is changed to years. the same for the 2300 days, the 42 months prophecy, etc.

God bless!
Bert

BERT: Your reference to numbers being literal. The 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel is not literal per se, but rather is changed to years. the same for the 2300 days, the 42 months prophecy, etc.

MM: Are you saying the 70 weeks, 2300 days and 42 months are not literal numbers? I agree the things associated with the numbers are symbolic, but what about the number itself?

Bert: The 70 weeks is changed to 490 years, the 2300 days are 2300 years and the 42 months is the same as the 1,260 days, which translates to 1,260 years, and is the same as the 'time, times and half a time'.

Bert, so you agree that the numbers are literal, right? And, you agree that the things associated with the numbers are symbolic, right?

For example, the 70 weeks symbolize 70 weeks of literal years or 490 literal years beginning in 457 BC and ending in 34 AD. The 42 months and 1260 days symbolize 1260 literal years beginning in 538 AD and ending in 1798 AD.

In other words, do not believe the numbers are symbolic of undefined periods of time or undefined eras, with no definitive starting or ending dates, right?

“Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,--so resplendent is it with the glory of God,--are gathered the company that have ‘gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name.’ With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, ‘having the harps of God,’ they stand, the hundred and forty and four thousand that were redeemed from among men; and there is heard, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of a great thunder, ‘the voice of harpers harping with their harps.’ And they sing ‘a new song’ before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. ‘These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth.’ These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as ‘the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.’ Revelation 15:2, 3; 14:1-5. ‘These are they which came out of great tribulation;’ they have passed through the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation; they have endured the anguish of the time of Jacob's trouble; they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments. But they have been delivered, for they have ‘washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’ ‘In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault’ before God. 'Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.’ They have seen the earth wasted with famine and pestilence, the sun having power to scorch men with great heat, and they themselves have endured suffering, hunger, and thirst. But ‘they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.’ Revelation 7:14-17. {GC 648.3-649.0}

Ellen White speaks interchangeably of the 144,000 and of the great multitude. Therefore, both expressions must refer to the same group.

Well here is from the Appendix: E. G. White and the 144,000 from Adventist Biblical Research site http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/144,000greatmultitude.htm

This appendix contains different Ellen G. White quotations on the 144,000 found in her writings. Most of them occur in more than one book and/or articles, however, only one source will be indicated in the following compilation. We will first list these quotations and then comment on them briefly.

1. Statements Reflecting Biblical Passages

"The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake." "The 144,000 were all sealed, and perfectly united." EW 15
"Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted 'Alleluia!'as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air." EW 16
"Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square." EW 16
"And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised His lovely voice and said, 'Only the 144,000 enter this place,' and we shouted, 'Alleluia.'" 1T 68
"A decree went forth to slay the saints, which caused them to cry day and night for deliverance. This was the time of Jacob's trouble. Then all the saints cried out with anguish of spirit, and were delivered by the voice of God. The 144,000 triumphed. Their faces were lighted up with the glory of God." EW 36-37
"The 144,000. They sing 'a new song' before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb—a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty‑four thousand can learn that song, for it is the song of their experience—an experience such as no other company have ever had. 'These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth.' These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as 'the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb' (Rev. 15:2, 3; 14:1‑5.) 'These are they which came out of great tribulation'; they have passed through the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation; they have endured the anguish of the time of Jacob's trouble; they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments." GC 648-649 (1911).
"The 144,000 Without Guile.—One of the marked features in the representation of the 144,000 is that in their mouth there was found no guile. The Lord has said, 'Blessed is the man . . . in whose spirit there is no guile.' They profess to be children of God, and are represented as following the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. They are prefigured before us as standing on Mount Zion, girt for holy service, clothed in white linen, which is the righteousness of the saints. But all who follow the Lamb in heaven will first have followed Him on earth, in trustful, loving, willing obedience, followed Him not fretfully and capriciously, but confidently, truthfully, as the flock follows the shepherd. . . ." 3SM 424
"Strive to Be Among the 144,000. —[Rev. 7:9‑17 quoted.] Those whom the Lamb will lead by the fountains of living waters, and from whose eyes He will wipe away all tears, will be those now receiving the knowledge and understanding revealed in the Bible, the Word of God. . . . Let us strive with all the power that God has given us to be among the hundred and forty‑four thousand (RH March 9, 1905)." 7BC 970
"The Signet of Heaven.—John saw a Lamb on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 having His Father's name written in their foreheads. They bore the signet of heaven. They reflected the image of God. They were full of the light and the glory of the Holy One. If we would have the image and superscription of God upon us, we must separate ourselves from all iniquity. We must forsake every evil way, and then we must trust our cases in the hands of Christ. While we are working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, God will work in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure (RH March 19, 1889)." 7BC 978
Ellen White affirms that the 144,000 are those that are alive at Jesus' Second Coming. They have been sealed and went through the great tribulation. Thus, Ellen White seems to confirm that the 144,000 and the great multitude are the same group. She also calls them "saints" which remind us of Rev 13 and 14. According to her the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb mentioned in Rev 15:3-4 are the song of the 144,000. This is the new song of Rev 14:3, which, however, is not recorded in that chapter. The characteristics of the 144,000 found in Rev are also attributed to them by Ellen White.

2. Statements Opposing False Ideas about the 144,000

"Bro. Arnold held that the 1000 years of Rev. xx were in the past; and that the 144,000 were those raised at Christ's resurrection." 2SG 98
Ellen G. White wrote a letter to a certain brother, who held: ". . . that the 144,000 will be Jews who will acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah." She responded saying among others things: "We must beware lest, under cover of searching for new truth, Satan shall divert our minds from Christ and the special truths for this time. I have been shown that it is the device of the enemy to lead minds to dwell upon some obscure or unimportant point, something that is not fully revealed or is not essential to our salvation. This is made the absorbing theme, the 'present truth,' when all their investigations and suppositions only serve to make matters more obscure than before, and to confuse the minds of some who ought to be seeking for oneness through sanctification of the truth. Your ideas of the two subjects you mention do not harmonize with the light which God has given me." 14MR
Not only did Ellen White support the biblical teaching of the 144,000. She also opposed erroneous views. As we have seen the 144,000 are those who are alive when Jesus returns. By challenging a kind of literal understanding of the 144,000 she supported the symbolical interpretation pointing out that we should not transform side-issues into essential doctrines.

3. Statements concerning Those Who Belong or Do Not Belong to the 144,000

"Then the angel said, 'You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God." EW 40
"I saw that she [referring to Mrs. Hastings, a wife and mother, who had passed away] was sealed and would come up at the voice of God and stand upon the earth, and would be with the 144,000." 2SM 263
"It is not His will that they shall get into controversy over questions which will not help them spiritually, such as, Who is to compose the hundred and forty‑four thousand? This those who are the elect of God will in a short time know without question." 1SM 174 (1901).
"When There Was No Light: I have no light on the subject [as to just who would constitute the 144,000]. . . ." 3SM 51
The first two quotations do not claim that Ellen White or Mrs. Hastings belong to the 144,000. Both of them are seen with the 144.000. This does, however, not imply that they are part of them. Again we are admonished to be content with what we can know about the 144,000 and not to press the issue.

4. Other Statements on the 144,000

"I saw there tables of stone in which the names of the 144,000 were engraved in letters of gold." 1T 68
"Why were they [the 144,000] so specially singled out? Because they had to stand with a wonderful truth right before the whole world, and receive their opposition and while receiving this opposition they were to remember that they were sons and daughters of God that they must have Christ formed within them the hope of glory. They were ever keeping in view the great and blessed hope that is before them." 1SAT 72-73
It seems that with the second statement Ellen White associates the 144,000 with the three angels messages. They have accepted that Awonderful truth@ and present it.

Summary

Obviously, E. G. White did not make many definite statements about the 144,000. Therefore, we should be careful not to read into her statements, what she did not say. Apparently, she opted for a symbolic understanding of the 144,000, who would be living at the Second Coming of Christ and seems to have described the great tribulation as the experience of the 144,000. Most important may be her warnings not to become preoccupied with details that are not important and not to try to interpret what cannot be determined, but rather live one=s life in such a way that one may be counted among them.

Good post. I agree with the conclusions drawn.

Richard and Rosangela, nothing you quoted even remotely proved Sister White believed the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are one and the same group. Nothing she wrote comes close to this conclusion. So, how can you so confidently say so?

In the quote I posted earlier she listed 3 groups of believers in concentric circles around the throne. The 144,000 occupied the middle circle, whereas the great multitude occupied the outer most circle. From this picture it should be obvious she did not view them as one and the same group.

Mike,

All the underlined phrases in the quote I posted refer to the great multitude in the Bible, and Ellen White applies them to the 144,000. How do you explain that?

Rosangela, are you assuming these verses are referring to the Great Multitude and not the 144,000?

Of course I am! The text reads:

9 After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes and with palms in their hands.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb!"
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four living beings, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying, "Amen. Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving, and honor and power and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen!"
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "Who are these that are arrayed in white robes, and from whence have they come?"
14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they that came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore, "they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple; and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters, and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

And Ellen White confirms it:

He [John] describes the great multitude who shall stand before God as overcomers, and says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." The palms signify that they have gained the victory, and the white robes that they have been clothed with the righteousness of Christ. Thank God that a fountain has been opened to wash our robes of character, and make them as white as snow. And they "cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God, which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God, saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God forever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said unto me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters; and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." {ST, May 2, 1895 par. 6}

Rosangela, are you suggesting the great multitude are the only ones in heaven who wear white robes washed in the blood of Jesus? What about all the other people who wear white robes in heaven - are they part of the great multitude, too? Is there just one group of saints in heaven?

Revelation
6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

Also, how can we conclude the following two groups are one and the same when the descriptions are nearly opposite?

Revelation
7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

1. The 144,000 are from 12 specific tribes; whereas the Great Multitude are from all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.

2. The 144,000 is a set number of people; whereas the Great Multitude is an innumerable number of people.

This thread is discussing the SOP, and the 144,000 are the ultimate beneficiaries of the SOP. It seems evident to me that the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are two separate and distinct groups. Note the following passage:

[1] Nearest the throne are those who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, but who, plucked as brands from the burning, have followed their Saviour with deep, intense devotion. [2] Next are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith. [3] And beyond is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, . . . before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." Revelation 7:9. Their warfare is ended, their victory won. They have run the race and reached the prize. The palm branch in their hands is a symbol of their triumph, the white robe an emblem of the spotless righteousness of Christ which now is theirs. {GC 665.2}

She describes three groups forming three concentric circles around the throne of God. The first group is closest to the throne, then the second, and finally the third group is the furthest from the throne of God. The 144,000 are included in the second group; whereas, the third group is the Great Multitude. Thus, they cannot be one and the same group.

The second group is composed of two groups. "Next are [1] those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and [2] the millions, of all ages, who were martyred for their faith." The first one is referring to the 144,000.

Would it be a terrible blow to your beliefs Mike, if it turns out there is just one group? Could you live with that? Could you live in post-sin for eternity in such conditions?

The angel asks John about a specific group of people clothed in white robes, and the group John describes as wearing white robes is the great multitude. There is no way around it.
All the phrases which describe the great multitude in John’s vision, Ellen White applies to the 144,000 in GC. We have two possibilities here: 1) either both groups are one and the same, or 2) the 144,000 are a subgroup within the great multitude of all the saved of all eras, so that what applies to the great multitude applies automatically to them.


This wouldn’t be surprising in Revelation, would it? The correspondence in Revelation between what John hears the angel say that he will see, and what he actually sees, generally is something different from what the angel said.

Revelation 5:
v. 5: “And one of the elders said unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda...”
v. 6: “And I beheld, and lo... a Lamb as it had been slain...”

Revelation 17:
v. 1: “And there came one of the 7 angels which had the 7 vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither: I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters.”
v. 3: So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast,...”

Revelation 21:
v. 9: “And there came unto me one of the 7 angels which had the 7 vials... and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”
v. 10: “And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city...”

This is a good point. Is there any reason to suppose this is unique to John?

Thomas, I'm sorry, after all these years, you don't know me well enough that you have to ask me these questions. I had hoped that you would know my answers without having to ask. It wouldn't bother me in the least if we are all toads in heaven, so long as I am there with Jesus and family and friends. I will croak until my heart is content, and croak some more.

Rosangela, what do you make of the differences you cited above? What does it mean to you?

PS - What do you make the GC quote I posted above, the one describing 3 concentric circles consisting of 3 different people groups gathered around the throne of God? The "great multitude" makes up the outer most circle of people; whereas, the 144,000 are part of the middle circle. What does this mean to you in light of our current discussion?

And yet you persist in denying in the face of as conclusive evidence as we shall find in a book such as revelation.

You're right, Thomas, I cannot deny I believe the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are two distinct and separate groups. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the Rosangela's second option turns out to be right -

Mike, they seem to be, in each case, two different symbols for the same thing.


There seems to be two subgroups singularized and the third group is the rest of the great multitude.

This really impressed me in Revelation, and I don't remember seeing this in any other book of the Bible.