I took this quote from another topic and wish to pursue this quote and thought here:

quote:

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God was ready for the 'if man should sin', but he did not foresee that the 'if' will happen.

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To me the above quote limits God, and I don't believe nothing is impossible for God which includes His foreknowledge or knowing what will happen in the future, otherwise, prophecy (fulfilled and not yet fulfilled couldn't exist.

What do you think?

How about this as an example of the foreknowledge of God, or in this case, Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

quote:

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Mark 11:1 And when they came nigh to Jerusalem, unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth forth two of his disciples,
2 And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him.
3 And if any man say unto you, Why do ye this? say ye that the Lord hath need of him; and straightway he will send him hither.
4 And they went their way, and found the colt tied by the door without in a place where two ways met; and they loose him.
5 And certain of them that stood there said unto them, What do ye, loosing the colt?
6 And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they let them go.

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It is obvious to me that the Lord knew that the colt would be tied up there before it happened.

I am sure we can find others like this that shows the foreknowledge of God.

Isn't that what prophecy is also all about?

How could God know about the rise and fall of nations as he did relating to the dream of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2 unless it had to do with His foreknowledge of these things happening well before they ever happened from Babylon to Rome and beyond, even to our day and beyond that?

[ November 26, 2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

I agree with your observations, Daryl. I believe eternity is like watching a rerun for God. Knowing everything single detail in advance makes life very fun for God. He gets to enjoy it twice.

If you are up to some heavy thinking, read THE OPENESS OF GOD, and I beleive that Richard Rice wrote it.

NOTE: My mention is not to be deemed agreement.

That book presents an altelrnate view.

Greetings

The concepts that have been presented here form an abstract knowledge of one form or another

Prophesy is not intended to tell us that God knows the future of the choices and actions of his creation as some skit or story read, that will be played out; nor that such type of foreknowledge is what ascertains that sin will rise no more. The scripture tells us:

Daniel 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Prophesy is based and intended to reveal that God has mastery (rules) in the kingdom of men

Abstract Foreknowledge
One way people think (usually the more scholarly ones) that God knows everything is that since God created everything including something called 'time', that therefore he is outside of the realm of 'time', another dimension. This sounds reasonable. Being outside the realm of time, he therefore is not subject to it, and hence yesterday, tomorrow, and today is all the same and he can see it all as in a panorama. In a real sense however that would mean that for God everything is always happening and nothing ever happened, because he is outside time. Hence for God there never was a time when there was no sin, and there never will be a time when there is no sin for it is all always there. Further comments should not be necessary

Another deviation of that is the view that time is the travel of the speed of light. Theoretically if you travel faster than the speed of light you go back in time. This however breaks down because light can only reflect that which has transpired and therefore can never show that which has not happened.

Others still simply do not think about it or try to understand it, so they just simply accept that he knows, and because they do not understand it, it is abstract for them. To them it is perhaps something like a crystal ball or book read or movie seen or some other means whereby God knows.

Observation
One observation that I would like to put forth is this: The very argument used at any time to defend the ability of God to foreknow in an abstract sense destroys his ability to be able to do anything about it. For the very fact that God has 'seen what will happen' in one of these abstract senses, means that He cannot do anything about it. If he were to do something about it to change it, than his sense would have been wrong.

The question then:

• Is God able to know the future and also at the same time be able to alter it according to his will, to accomplish his purpose and end? If so then God's foreknowledge is not abstract but based on understanding.

Second question is:

• What abilities and powers has he given to his creation and how this interplays with his purposes? This also establishes our responsibility and accountability.

Knowledge based on understanding
God's foreknowledge is not abstract but it is based on understanding. It ought to be needless to say that his knowledge is complete in all science and physics, as he is the creator of it. His knowledge is result of complete understanding of his creation, the abilities he has given them and the responsibilities he requires of them, and the means of accomplishing them.

He also knows what he purposes and is able to bring it to pass.


Shalom

[ April 26, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Daryl,

Why does it bother you that there may be limits to God's abilities? It seems that attributing to Him abilities which He does not possess, or at least does not claim, would be a far more troublesome concept.

He does not claim to be omniscient, for instance, nor omnipotent. These are attributes which humans have placed on Him. And omnipresence is clearly a fable. God has been seen walking in a garden and in an oven, sitting in a chair, flying an airplane and a helicopter, wrestling with a man, and eating food (flesh food at that!). As for foreknowledge, virtually all prophecy consists of declarations of that which He is going to do. The rest is clearly conditional. As for the colt in the above story, we sometimes forget that Jesus was in constant contact with the angels who could easily inform Him where to find the colt (or even tie up a colt where Jesus said it would be).

On the other hand, there is the question of who originated sin. It seems obvious that if God knew in advance which being would rebel against Him or which planet would be trapped in sin but God created that being or that planet anyhow, then God must be charged with originating sin. I find it impossible in my soul to accept that charge.

Also, I find no physical or philosophical reason to believe that God is outside of time. I am aware that modern physics has postulated some strange ideas about the nature of time, but so far, none of it has been proven. Physical objects may age more rapidly in some conditions than others, but that does not necessarily mean time itself can be modified.

When considering the attributes of God, there is one point which should be made. We have three sources of information. One, that which God claims about Himself. Two, things which people have observed God doing. And three, things which people say about God. Most of the "impossible" concepts people have developed about God's abilities come from that third source, some Biblical, some non-Biblical things people say about God. If we limit our concepts to that which God says about Himself and that which He has been observed doing, a much different picture emerges which, to me, is much easier to believe. No longer do we have to feel that if Superman can do it, or if Wonder Woman can do it, or if Santa Claus can do it, or if Dr. Who can do it, God must be able to do it too.

Bob Lee

Sometime ago it occurred to me that the statement "Let us make man in our image" is probably not well understood. Does this only refer to man's physical aspects? The very fact that we are each held responsible for our faith and actions means that God has given each one a key attribute that He possess i.e. the power of choice and the ability to affect an outcome with eternal consequences.

If God is merely watching some skit being played out then do we really have free choice? The idea of precise foreknowledge contradicts the whole theme of the "great controversy".

Scientist sometimes use the concepts of determinism and convergence to describe the behaviour of complex systems. In nature many things are not deterministic i.e. one cannot "precisely" predict how something will unfold step by step. But an astute observer who understands the principles of nature can acurately predict the convergence or outcome of a system.

Being the creator, God certainly understands all the principles and exactly where our actions will lead us but he gave us true freedom of choice.

If I know precisely that in a few days my young son will find the nearest metal implement and insert it into an AC wall plug electrocuting himself, I am guilty of manslaughter if I don't prevent it.

I must agree with Boblee on this one. Our beliefs and concepts of God should be limited to what is clearly revealed. Everything else is hearsay.

dw

I thought it was a given and unquestionable fact about the foreknowledge of God as proven by all the prophetic utterances of all of His prophets.

Seeing that there is some question here about God's foreknowledge, I think we had better do a Bible study on that to see whether or not God is able to know precisely what will happen before it actually happens.

Let the Bible study on this begin, or continue.

Didn't God foreknow that Christ would be betrayed by one of His own disciples even specifically including the betrayal for thirty pieces of silver?

quote:

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THE PROPHECY:
Zechariah 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

THE FULFILLMENT:
Matthew 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.

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This prophecy was fulfilled as specifically as it was predicted with only one exception which is that the prophecy did not name the betrayer by name.

I am sure there are other texts out there that will prove the foreknowledge of God, for to say otherwise limits God of whom nothing is impossible for Him except those things which He already stated He would never do.