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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: scott] #100480
07/03/08 04:40 PM
07/03/08 04:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: scott
 Quote:
By scott: Let me ask you this question: Had the Father commanded Jesus to call fire down from heaven to punish those cities who scorned His disciples do you think Jesus would have killed them? Or would Jesus have questioned whose voice He was hearing?

By MM: Jesus would have obeyed the voice of His Father. He was never confused about His Father's voice. Why do you ask?


Jesus said in John that everything He said and did was from the Father. You insist that God doesn’t change, but Jesus never killed anyone, but forgave even those murdering Him. He forgave and showed mercy to every kind of sinner that the laws of Moses told us to kill. Why do you insist that Jesus’ revelation of God is only a partial one showing one side of God and the OT is Jesus showing another side of God.

Hebrews 1 tells us that “1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.”

That phrase “exact representation” is the Greek word “char-ak-ter” which makes the text say: “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact character of his being”

Why do you not submit your image of God to what Christ revealed rather than what the prophets revealed? God spoke through the prophets, but is now speaking through His Son who is the exact character of God. Doesn’t that say that the prophets did not represent God’s character as good as Jesus did?

Are you suggesting Jesus would not have obeyed the voice of God if He were in Moses' place? In other words, if Jesus had inquired of God whether to stone the guy to death or not, would Jesus have disregarded God's command and have forgiven him instead?

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100483
07/03/08 04:58 PM
07/03/08 04:58 PM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Quote:
Colossians 2: 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.


 Quote:
MM: I suppose this applies to the ceremonial services. But does it mean the entire law of Moses was eliminated?

Hi MM,

Actually in the ceremonial service we find the remedy for sin. We have the High priest representing Christ as our mediator, the sacrifice representing Christ as our substitute and surety, the tabernacle representing God dwelling in and among us, the feast as a compacted prophecy of the plan of salvation through Jesus. I would say that the only thing in the ceremonies that “were against us” was our misunderstanding of them by thinking it was our obedience to the ceremonies that secured our salvation rather than the righteousness and mercy of God.

What really condemned us are the 10 Commandments. There is no remedy in them! They represent the standard of righteousness and sit in judgment on us as we see how short we fall. But over all I would say that the “written code” is the whole covenant that God made with Israel that we call the Old Covenant. That covenant condemned Israel because Israel failed to understand what it taught and actually believed exactly the opposite of what God was trying to do though it. Its purpose was to lead us down through history to Jesus! And the Jews so missed the point that they killed their Messiah when He came.

What Paul is saying here is that we were dead believing that our circumcision and law keeping were going to save us. But God’s forgiveness has brought us back to life and canceled out the damage that our misunderstanding of the law caused. That written code was nailed to the cross because it was a picture of Christ being nailed to the cross. It was a compacted prophecy of Christ and once He had come the wisdom and salvation of God was made manifest in Christ Jesus. What the law couldn’t do, lead us to love God, because our faith was weak Christ, dying on the cross so manifested His love that we are made alive in the love of God.

scott

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100484
07/03/08 05:07 PM
07/03/08 05:07 PM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
 Originally Posted By: scott
 Quote:
By scott: Let me ask you this question: Had the Father commanded Jesus to call fire down from heaven to punish those cities who scorned His disciples do you think Jesus would have killed them? Or would Jesus have questioned whose voice He was hearing?

By MM: Jesus would have obeyed the voice of His Father. He was never confused about His Father's voice. Why do you ask?


Jesus said in John that everything He said and did was from the Father. You insist that God doesn’t change, but Jesus never killed anyone, but forgave even those murdering Him. He forgave and showed mercy to every kind of sinner that the laws of Moses told us to kill. Why do you insist that Jesus’ revelation of God is only a partial one showing one side of God and the OT is Jesus showing another side of God.

Hebrews 1 tells us that “1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.”

That phrase “exact representation” is the Greek word “char-ak-ter” which makes the text say: “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact character of his being”

Why do you not submit your image of God to what Christ revealed rather than what the prophets revealed? God spoke through the prophets, but is now speaking through His Son who is the exact character of God. Doesn’t that say that the prophets did not represent God’s character as good as Jesus did?

Are you suggesting Jesus would not have obeyed the voice of God if He were in Moses' place? In other words, if Jesus had inquired of God whether to stone the guy to death or not, would Jesus have disregarded God's command and have forgiven him instead?


Isn't that exactly what Jesus did? Jesus and the Father are one and Jesus never killed anyone caught in sin. Are you saying that Jesus isn't God or that God changed when He revealed His will to Jesus? Was Jesus just a PR man for God or was He God in the flesh? Is it God's way to command men to kill, but not get His hands dirty while His journey as a man?

You are saying that God insisted on Moses killing those breaking the law so why didn't God insist that the men who caught the woman in adultery kill her? Why did God in Jesus suddenly show mercy, but was exacting through Moses.

You might not realize it, but you are the one sugesting that God is fickle!

scott

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100485
07/03/08 05:10 PM
07/03/08 05:10 PM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Quote:
Galatians 3: 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

MM: Isn't this referring to the 10Cs? If so, then it certainly cannot mean the law is no longer useful. The law is a transcript of God's character, as such, it is immutable and eternal, right?


Are you saying that the text says that we no longer need the 10 Commandments since we now know Christ’s character?

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100486
07/03/08 05:33 PM
07/03/08 05:33 PM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Quote:
Hebrews 8: 13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

MM: I suppose this is referring to the ceremonial aspects of the law.


I find it interesting how you dissect the Old Covenant into whatever part fits your theology.

Hebrews systematically walks us through every aspect of the Old Covenant and shows us that Christ is “better than”. Greater than Moses, built a greater tabernacle made of living stones, better that Aaron, better than the earthly High Priest, even a better priesthood, better sacrifice, and concluding in chapter 8 that Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant based on better promises and the Old Covenant that was just a shadow of Jesus’ ministry has become obsolete and ready to vanish.

In the Bible the writings of Moses are called “The Law” and the rest of the Bible is referred to as “The Prophets”. The Testimony of the Law and the Prophets are what we call the Old Testament. And the word “testament” is just the Latin form of the word “covenant”. So, according to the word, there is no distinction between “New Covenant” and “New Testament”. It is the same words, just different languages or translations.

Every word in the OT was written by an Israelite of the flesh. The whole OT is a historic account of God’s covenant with Israel that we call the Old Covenant or Old Testament.

While you are supposing what part of the law applies to the verse and what part of the law doesn’t apply doesn’t it occur to you to find out what the writers meant by the words they used rather that guessing.

scott

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100487
07/03/08 05:52 PM
07/03/08 05:52 PM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Quote:
Matthew 5: 38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

MM: What Jesus said was inherent in the law of Moses.


Not according to Jesus’ words. Jesus said “you have heard, but I say”. That is very clear language that what Moses said was different that was Jesus was saying. The word “but” is called an adversative or continuative. It can mean “but” or “moreover”, something adverse to or addition to. The only way to interpret it is though the context and the context is adversative. Jesus is comparing what they heard from Moses with what He was teaching. Jesus claimed authority over Moses many times, but not to undermine Moses. He saw Himself as the fulfillment of what Moses was called to start.

I agree that what Jesus said was inherent in the law of Moses only in principle. In other words the principles that Moses’ laws were based on were the same principles that Jesus’ word was based on. The difference being the revelation of God that Jesus came to show us. Jesus is the exegesis of the OT. He explains it and not the other way around. It testifies of Him and He verifies its meaning. If you want prophetic proof that Jesus is the Messiah you go the the OT, but if you want to know what the OT was all about all we have to do is know God through Jesus. We don’t look at the OT as a revelation of God. It was a revelation of our affiliation with sin and our condemnation. Jesus is the perfect image of the Father and the only full revelation of truth this world has ever seen.

scott

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100488
07/03/08 06:04 PM
07/03/08 06:04 PM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Quote:
2 Corinthians 3: 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

MM: This certainly isn't saying the law is no longer binding.


Hi MM,

Paul calls the 10 Commandment (engraved in letters on stone) “the ministry that condemns” and says that it is “fading away”. He also says that "the ministry of death", the 10 Commandments that bring condemnation, have no glory compared to the ministry of the Spirit that brings righteousness.

What do you mean by “no longer binding”

Didn’t you just say that the 10 Commandments, in Galatians 3, are the schoolmaster who led us to Christ of which we are no longer under?

What does “no longer under”, “ministry of death”, and “fading away” mean to you?

scott

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100491
07/03/08 06:41 PM
07/03/08 06:41 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
MM:Timing is everything, as they say. The law of Moses outlined very specific punishments for specific crimes. They were administered under a Theocracy. Nowadays, we are no longer a Theocracy, right? So, things have changed. I do not pretend to understand everything God outlined in the law of Moses. At times I am tempted to think certain aspects of it were unfair. But I immediately recognize such thoughts as the voice of Satan.

T:Maybe you're confusing voices here.

MM:Are you suggesting that it is Jesus who is attempting to speak to my heart, to help me understand that certain aspects of the law of Moses represent the will of Satan?


Now you're misrepresenting what you yourself wrote! I'm glad to know it's not something personal! Reread what you wrote, and where I made my comment, and it should be clear what I'm suggesting.

 Quote:
M:I am convinced that the law of Moses represented God's will for the COI. I am in no way confused as to whether or not it reflects a compromise to accommodate their hard hearts and sinfulness.

T:You seem to be confused to an extent, because you cannot answer a simply question like why God would want women's hands to be cut off. You just say, "I don't know." That sounds like confusion.

MM:Do you know why God commanded Moses to cut off women's hands?


My point has been that God was dealing with a backward and stiffnecked people, and so had to make accommodations for them. This is just one example of that.

 Quote:
One could speculate Jesus commanded this punishment for this particular act in order to emphasize how important it is for men to be able to have children because Jesus would one day be born of a virgin. If women went around grabbing men and preventing them from having children then the virgin would not be born.


But the same thing would apply to men. Why shouldn't men's hands be cut off? Why only women's?

 Quote:
Again, polygamy and capital punishment do not violate the law of God when administered in harmony with the law of Moses. I don't know about lying and stealing. Ananias and Sapphira didn't make out so well when they lied and stole.


According to the statement I've cited a number of times now, polygamy is a sin, contrary to the law of God, never sanctioned in a single instance. Aren't you suggesting that the law of Moses sanctioned it?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100492
07/03/08 08:44 PM
07/03/08 08:44 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
MM:That's not how the Bible describes the "strange acts" performed by God. Please show me in Bible where it says such a thing.

TE:Ok. Here's an example:

And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.

And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. (Numbers 21:5,6)

MM:How does this example address my question? How does it support your view?


God's "strange act" is his giving someone up for destruction. The fiery serpents are an example of that.

 Quote:
Please cite an example of Jesus, while here in the flesh, sending fiery serpents to punish people. And, while you are at it, please post an example of Jesus withdrawing His protection and allowing evil angels to kill people. Thank you. By the way, am I correct in assuming you believe God does these kinds of things?


We've been through this several times already. You've asked me to provide examples, and I did. If you don't like the examples, fine, but there's no point in just asking for the same thing over and over again.

Regarding if I believe God does things like sending fiery serpents to punish people, I do. You know what happened, don't you?

 Quote:
Regarding your question on polygamy, my answer is that polygamy is contrary to God's will, was never sanctioned by Him in a single instance, and is a violation of His law.

Yes, I know you believe this, but my question doesn't have anything to do with this. I am specifically interested in learning what you believe about the law of Moses which makes provisions for a man to have more than one wife. Is he guilty of sinning if he acts in harmony with the law of Moses and takes more than one wife? Do you understand my question? If not, I will attempt to state it in a way you can understand. Thank you. Please believe me, I am not being facetious or sarcastic.


You were being sarcastic when you wrote "Thank you for stating the obvious."

Here's an EGW statement:

 Quote:
Said the angel, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject." (Spiritual Gifts Volume 4b)


Using this definition for sin, I would say no, not guilty of sinning.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: scott] #100511
07/04/08 08:54 AM
07/04/08 08:54 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
 Originally Posted By: scott
Hi GC,

We can study it in the Greek and Hebrew if you like, but it might be a little hard on those peeking in!

But you will find that it is the whole Old Covenant including the whole Law of Moses, the 10 Commandments (particularly), the feasts, the ceremonies, the earthly priesthood, the earthly sacrifice, and everything that Moses included in Exodus 19-24.

This is what the NT teaches. Butler taught that it was only the ceremonial law, Jones and Waggoner taught that it was only the 10 Commandments, and Ellen saw it as both the ceremonial law and primarily the 10 Commandments.

But the Bible simply states that the system that was becoming obsolete because Christ had fulfilled it was the Old Covenant (all inclusive of all its parts).

It doesn’t matter to me what translation you want to use because I use the Greek and Hebrew to do my studies!

scott


Better start actually quoting your Greek and Hebrew here, with their Strong's numbers so that I can look them up. Otherwise, I have nothing to go on other than somebody's say-so--which is never considered safe.

You certainly weren't using the Greek and Hebrew to make your points earlier--and I'm telling you that the NIV will not make points with me. Do your Greek and Hebrew texts omit verses of the Bible because they mention "fasting"? Do they change the word "Joseph" to "father"? Do they omit articles so that "the Sabbath" is just "a sabbath?" I doubt it. What's more, I will not accept that the entire law was done away with.

IF THE LAW WAS ABOLISHED, THEN CHRIST'S DEATH ON THE CROSS WAS SATAN'S VICTORY, NOT GOD'S.

This is just common sense. Satan has been waging war with God OVER THE LAW, from the very beginning.

It is because people try to contradict themselves by saying that the Old Testament was "nailed to the cross" and that the New Testament is new and different and the only thing valid today, that we have issues over things like the laws of Moses which we are discussing now.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with your statements in this last post quite strongly. I find them to be falsehoods which many are deceived by.

The "Old Covenant" is misunderstood largely because of the modern versions of the Bible. People were not discussing the "old covenant" versus the "new" nearly so much before the NIV came out and misrepresented the issue.

For a few facts:

1) THE Covenant did not begin with the children of Israel.
2) THE Covenant has been further clarified, strengthened, and renewed with each successive presentation of it through the Bible.
3) THE Covenant, whether you call it "Old" or "New," is the same covenant throughout the Scriptures.

Does God ever break a promise? Of course not! That would be tantamount to lying--especially from a Being who knows the future! Does God ever make anything less than perfect? Does He speak haphazardly, or do anything without thought? But then, how would you interpret this?

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7, KJV)

If you miss the point Paul is making here, then you will easily miss the whole discussion. Many have been led astray here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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