I'm still not sure what you believe, Scott. Are you saying the OT authors mistakenly attributed judgments to God because of their theological aberrations? If so, then doesn't this assume the OT is based partly on flawed theology? Did God really sit back and allow such a thing?

2 Peter
1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Maybe you could find me a quote in the Bible where it claims the prophets had all knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect obedience the minute that God gave them a message to give to Israel.

How could anyone write something and not apply it to their existing paradigm?

Doesn’t the Bible reflect the culture of the day? Isn’t culture always several steps behind God?

The text in 2 Peter would certainly allow for prophets to be human and have misunderstandings. All the text says is that God set aside men to prophecy and that their prophecy is of no private interpretation. This certainly allows the OT to be thought inspired rather that word inspired. And it certainly doesn’t make the OT false or untrustworthy.

I see the OT as a perfect revelation of God’s journey with us. It is God’s perfect thoughts portrayed by the best flawed men God could find! And usually the only qualification was a willingness to go! Let’s not make the same mistake as Israel and worship the prophets. They killed them and 100 years later worshiped their every word to the point where the scribes would throw away the pen, take a bath, wash their clothes, get a new pen and begin writing again each time they wrote God’s name. The Jews to this day believe that the Hebrew language is the one that God speaks.

scott

I know that's your inclination, which is why I pointed out another possibility for you.



There are many passages that speak of the wrath of men. I don't know what your point is.

To know of whom Paul is speaking of, in terms of to whom the wrath applies, one would need to consider the context and the argument. I agree with Scott's explanation, that we are the ones in need of healing, and the cross provided the means to heal us from our anger against God.

God has always been right with us. He so loved the world, that He gave His Son. Nothing needs to be done for Him, but only for us. We are the ones that need to be reconciled to God. He does not need to be reconciled to us.

God established the nature of things.

“The will of God establishes the connection between cause and its effects.”{ApM 26.1}


If God had created everything square, neither roundness nor the concept of roundness would exist. God created the concept of roundness and thus created a circle. God created everything and the laws which govern everything.
He designed that, in the universe, nothing would exist independently. Through this interconnectedness, what happens to one thing must effect another thing. All the other universal laws are based upon this law.
I don’t understand how you can think that there exists a law which wasn’t created by God.


Of course this is not true. Sins of ignorance also need pardon.


No. Everything else hinged on a single point – if God and His laws were just and if He would submit to them.
Nothing would be gained by knowing that Jesus was God if he thought that God could exalt a creature to equality with Himself if He so wished. Of course this was insane, but it was the way he reasoned.


My view includes yours, but yours excludes mine.

This can’t be because Tom doesn’t believe that God built punishment into the equation. God just made things naturally. He created a circle and said, “this is a circle”. Sin twists it and stretches it and then blames God for the circle not being a perfectly round any more.

scott

I don't believe that either, in case you mean that God said, "I'll kill those who disobey My law." But I do believe sin is an evil which affects the whole universe, and as such it cannot just be ignored - it must be judged. However, when it is judged by God, it must obviously be condemned. The problem is that the condemnation of sin causes in the sinner such a weight of guilt that it crushes him. That's why the penalty of the law is death.

So please allow me propose a scenario:

What if God was to withdraw the presence of the Holy Spirit from the earth completely and did nothing to punish men.

How long would it take for men to totally become insane and destroy the earth and themselves along with it?

Or do you think men would get it together and continue to get along enough for some to survive?

scott

Scott, you wrote, "Maybe you could find me a quote in the Bible where it claims the prophets had all knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect obedience the minute that Maybe you could find me a quote in the Bible where it claims the prophets had all knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect obedience the minute that God gave them a message to give to Israel.."

MM: Moses comes to mind. He obeyed the commandments God gave to the COI. He understood them. Yes, he sinned in striking the rock, but he understood the commandments God gave him. We're also told he understood the symbols which pointed to the life and death of Jesus, although Moses didn't record it.

Also, in what you wrote above, "... God gave them a message to give to Israel", indicates you believe the messages they gave to COI reflected the mind of God. In other words, they did not get it wrong or misrepresent what God intended to tell the COI. They passed on precisely what God wanted them to know. Is this what you believe, or did I misunderstand you?

So again, Scott, how do you explain the OT passages that attribute to God the judgments that befell people? For example, the Flood, the fiery deaths of the Sodomites, the Egyptian plagues, the fiery deaths of Nadab and Abihu, the chasm that swallowed up Korah, etc? Do you agree with Tom that these kinds of things happened because God ceased preventing them from happening?

And, finally, how does this relate to the death of Jesus on the cross?

Tom, you wrote, “I know that's your inclination, which is why I pointed out another possibility for you.” I cited two possibilities of the origin or source of “the wrath” Paul mentioned in Rom 5:9 – 1) Our wrath, and 2) God’s wrath. You seem to believe it refers to our wrath, which prevents God from benefiting us with the reconciliation and salvation He provided us. Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea described or explained? That is, where does it talk about man’s wrath being the thing that prevents God from saving us through Jesus? “… we shall be saved through him from the wrath.” Again, where does it describe "the wrath" in these terms?

Here are some other references to “the wrath”. What can we lean about the love of God from them? More specifically, what do they tell us about the meaning of Jesus' death on the cross?

Numbers
11:33 And while the flesh [was] yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.

2 Chronicles
29:8 Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes.
36:16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till [there was] no remedy.

Psalm
76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.
78:31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen [men] of Israel.
106:40 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.

Isaiah
9:19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.
13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah
50:13 Because of the wrath of the LORD it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues.

Ezekiel
7:19 They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.

John
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Ephesians
5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians
3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

James
1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Revelation
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation
14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Revelation
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation
14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Scott, do you believe God sometimes intervenes and prevents certain natural cause and effect consequences from happening? Or, does He always allow them to play out naturally? For example, if a criminal shoots at someone, can God step in alter the outcome of natural laws?

If you answer that He can and does intervene to prevent natural law, how does this impact your understanding of causes and consequences? How can you be sure an effect is the natural outcome of the cause and not a result of God's intervention? How can you be sure the cause wasn't also the result of God's involvement?

In the case of Jesus' death on the cross, how can you be sure it was the result of natural law and not God's involvement? Did the cross really kill Jesus? Did He really die of a broken heart? Or, did God intervene and prevent the humanity of Jesus from succumbing to natural law?

What does it mean, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."