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Re: Lesson #4 - Atonement and the Divine Initiative [Re: Mountain Man] #104024
10/26/08 01:44 AM
10/26/08 01:44 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
The fact something can happen doesn't mean it will or must or might happen.


Yes it does. Not the "must" but the "might." That is, the fact that something can happen means that it might happen. That's exactly what it means. To say something can happen means it might happen. To say something might happen means it can happen.

Quote:
Knowing what will happen doesn't mean something else could have happened.


The tenses here don't combine. Knowing what will happen means knowing what won't happen. For example, knowing Christ will be successful means knowing He is not at risk to fail. Or, to use a conditional form, knowing that Christ would succeed means knowing there was no risk of His failing.

Quote:
Jesus risked failing but it doesn't mean God couldn't know for sure He would succeed.


If Jesus risked failing, that means there was a possibility that He would not succeed. If God was 100% certain that Christ would succeed, there was no possibility of His failing.

Quote:
The two are not incompatible.


Yes they are. If God is 100% certain that something will happen, there is no risk that the thing He is certain will happen will not happen.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #4 - Atonement and the Divine Initiative [Re: asygo] #104069
10/29/08 01:30 AM
10/29/08 01:30 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,584
California, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Tom
This isn't true. The Heisengerg Uncertainty Principle has all sorts of implications outside of subautomic particles. Have you heard of Heisenbugs? Probabilistic effects are manifest in many situations, such as the stock market.

I have heard of Heisenbugs. No, they are not probabilistic. It's actually a misnomer, confusing the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle with the "observer effect."

A comment from Einstein about the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics:
Originally Posted By: Albert Einstein: Philosopher-Scientist (1949), from The Library of Living Philosophers Series
I am, in fact, firmly convinced that the essentially statistical character of contemporary quantum theory is solely to be ascribed to the fact that this [theory] operates with an incomplete description of physical systems.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #4 - Atonement and the Divine Initiative [Re: asygo] #104077
10/29/08 06:46 PM
10/29/08 06:46 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Einstein's opinion of this was well known. I don't know any physicist who holds it today. Do you?

I should also ask, do you think that quantum mechanics is incorrect? (i.e., the nature of the motion of subatomic particles is not really based on probabilities, but only appears to be so because of a lack of knowledge in regards to physics).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #4 - Atonement and the Divine Initiative [Re: Tom] #104083
10/29/08 11:24 PM
10/29/08 11:24 PM
asygo  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,584
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Einstein's opinion of this was well known. I don't know any physicist who holds it today. Do you?

I don't. But it is also well known that scientific consensus does not guarantee truth, as Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler would attest.

Originally Posted By: Tom
I should also ask, do you think that quantum mechanics is incorrect? (i.e., the nature of the motion of subatomic particles is not really based on probabilities, but only appears to be so because of a lack of knowledge in regards to physics).

I have not made a decision one way or the other. Einstein's assertion is that the psi function is not a complete description of an object's properties. How can one dispute that? It is not possible to say, "There is nothing I don't know." It is probably more a philosophical problem than a physical one.

In any case, from a physics standpoint, I don't believe quantum mechanical effects, particularly the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, can be used to say that moral decisions are probabilistic in nature. The aggregate of the brain's subatomic parts function in a very orderly and predictable way. That's why Jesus said that we can be judged by our fruits.

Do you know of any physicists who invoke the HUP to explain psychology? Yes, economists and other fake scientists might, but I'm talking about real scientists. While we're at it, are there any reputable scientists who invoke the HUP to explain Chaos Theory? The most "macro" effect of the HUP that I can think of is in the activity of electrons in electronic devices such as diodes and gates. Even so, we all know that computers are very deterministic in their function; any uncertainty, as that caused by the infamous Pentium bug, is unacceptable.

Theologically speaking, the fact that there is a judgment tells us that our choices and actions are not a matter of chance. If our choices were merely the product of probabilistic phenomena, the concept of culpability would be meaningless. We can always say, "That's not my fault; my brain just happened to choose to sin this time because a few electrons jumped unexpectedly."


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #4 - Atonement and the Divine Initiative [Re: asygo] #104085
10/30/08 12:25 AM
10/30/08 12:25 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
In any case, from a physics standpoint, I don't believe quantum mechanical effects, particularly the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, can be used to say that moral decisions are probabilistic in nature.


This question I'm interested in has to do with the nature of the Universe. Did God create spontaneous, random things? (which are such by nature, meaning even for Him) Or is everything in reality deterministic, and these things just appear spontaneous and random to us because of our ignorance. Personally I find the fact that God, being infinite in intelligence, can create things which are spontaneous and random even for Himself to be cool beyond words.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #4 - Atonement and the Divine Initiative [Re: Tom] #104086
10/30/08 04:52 PM
10/30/08 04:52 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,584
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
In any case, from a physics standpoint, I don't believe quantum mechanical effects, particularly the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, can be used to say that moral decisions are probabilistic in nature.

This question I'm interested in has to do with the nature of the Universe. Did God create spontaneous, random things? (which are such by nature, meaning even for Him) Or is everything in reality deterministic, and these things just appear spontaneous and random to us because of our ignorance. Personally I find the fact that God, being infinite in intelligence, can create things which are spontaneous and random even for Himself to be cool beyond words.

Did God create spontaneous, random things? Possibly. But one thing is clear to physicists: When you put a bunch of these spontaneous, random objects together and consider the aggregate, their behavior is extremely predictable. It is this incredible level of predictability that gives quantum mechanics the honor of being one of the most successful theories to date. (In the case of scientific theories, success means being able to accurately predict future events. Unreliable and inaccurate predictions are useless, except in the realm of fake "science" like astrology.)

In any case, what is cool to us does not impact what is cool to God. There was a time I thought it was cool to have multiple girlfriends simultaneously. That wasn't good. Then I improved to having multiple girlfriends serially. But that still wasn't good. It wasn't until later that I learned about the "one woman man" plan that God has in mind. What's cool to us may be an abomination to God.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #4 - Atonement and the Divine Initiative [Re: asygo] #104087
10/30/08 06:51 PM
10/30/08 06:51 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Did God create spontaneous, random things? Possibly. But one thing is clear to physicists: When you put a bunch of these spontaneous, random objects together and consider the aggregate, their behavior is extremely predictable.


Certainly, the aggregate behavior would have to be predicable, or you couldn't have predictable chemical reactions and so forth. But if God created things to be spontaneous, including inanimate things, that ties in nicely to the idea that God is a lover of freedom, and of spontaneity, both of which I think are true.

Quote:
In any case, what is cool to us does not impact what is cool to God.


We're talking about spontaneity and freedom here. If God created things deterministically, that says something about His character.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #4 - Atonement and the Divine Initiative [Re: Tom] #104088
10/30/08 08:28 PM
10/30/08 08:28 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,584
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Certainly, the aggregate behavior would have to be predicable, or you couldn't have predictable chemical reactions and so forth.

Do you believe chemical reactions are deterministic?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #4 - Atonement and the Divine Initiative [Re: asygo] #104089
10/30/08 09:26 PM
10/30/08 09:26 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I'd say the probabilistic element would enter into things more in regards to whether or not the chemical reaction occurred, as to how it would act, but since you bring up the question (I hadn't thought about it before) it seems likely to me that there must be reactions which behave in different ways depending upon various factors, so it seems likely to me that there are probabilistic elements involved here as well.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Reply Quote
Re: Lesson #4 - Atonement and the Divine Initiative [Re: Tom] #104091
10/31/08 01:00 AM
10/31/08 01:00 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,584
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
I'd say the probabilistic element would enter into things more in regards to whether or not the chemical reaction occurred, as to how it would act, but since you bring up the question (I hadn't thought about it before) it seems likely to me that there must be reactions which behave in different ways depending upon various factors, so it seems likely to me that there are probabilistic elements involved here as well.

The probabilistic effects seen in quantum mechanics involve identical conditions that result in different outcomes. (Einstein used that as one definition of insanity, which is not surprising consider what he thought of QM's statistical nature.) If reactions behave differently under different conditions/factors, that doesn't count as probabilistic.

There is a probabilistic or statistical element to chemical reactions. For one, we don't know how each atom collides with other atoms. This is impacted not only by the number of atoms involved and the temperature, but also by the orientation of the atoms relative to each other. Our lack of knowledge makes it a statistical matter of how fast and how far the reaction will go.

Furthermore, underneath that are the quantum mechanical interactions between the electrons of each atom. These are genuinely impacted by the HUP - we're not quite sure exactly where the electrons are or where they're going or how fast they're moving to get there. This makes it impossible, as far as current physicist believe, to know how any individual interaction will unfold.

However, when considering the reaction as a whole, with reactants measured in moles, it is very predictable. We can say with great certainty what will happen. Of course, while there is a non-zero probability that something totally weird would happen, just like there is a non-zero probability that the sun would suddenly disappear and reappear 1000 light years away, it is very unlikely.

Does that make sense?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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