MM, you appear to be reading the statements you are citing in a way that would have God arbitrarily dispensing judgment upon those He deems worthy of such, as opposed to God's permitting those who reject Him and His principles to experience the result of their choice.















The statements you are citing need to be interpreted in a way which is in harmony with these principles. A simple way to do this is to understand that God's punishment is not something He arbitrarily does to certain people, but is rather His withdrawing His Spirit from those who have rejecting them, and leaving them to the consequences.

Note, in particular, the following:



How does God show He is "the living God"? By permitting Satan to destroy.

If your looking at it from the point that its God's fault for allowing sin to work it self out or for even creating beings that had the possibility of sinning then I can somehow see how you think it's God that destroys. However, I would rather look at it a different way. I think its our job to show the world that God is NOT how MM is trying to describe Him. I think MM's idea of God is the very reason why the penal substitution model isnt the best. Some would say it came from pegan thought.

If its God that punishes us and not the result of sin. Then Satan is right when He says the problem is God. If the only thing wrong with sin is that it goes against what God has asked us not to do then God should just stop giving us these annoying rules we are supposed to live by.

Lets say your brother is married with three kids. One day his coworker tells him lies about his wife. The coworker claims the milk man as been having an affair with the wife for years. In fact, he says, the children are the milk mans. So the husband goes to his other coworkers and confides in them and some side with him and some side with his wife saying there was no way the wife would do that. His wife of course denys the affair. But the trust is broken anyway. Now the husband is so upset that he goes out and sleeps with a prostitute and gets infected with HIV. Meanwhile, his wife still loves him and has done nothing wrong the whole time. Finally the wife's son decides to shed his own blood and take a blood test to prove that the mom wasnt lying. So why is it the wife's fault that her husband believed the lies and got HIV?

Why was eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil fatal? Was the fruit inherently poisonous? Did Satan make it poisonous? Or was it something else that made eating it fatal to man?

Same question as to Aaron. Why was eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil fatal?

Regarding the question as to why eating of the forbidden fruit was fatal:



This brings out that Satan misrepresented God's character, attributing to God the desire for self-exaltation, investing Him with his own evil characteristics. This is how he deceived man, and drew him into rebellion.

Also from the same DA passage:



Some examples of this "circuit of beneficence" from nature:



Here's an explanation of why the wicked die:



From the above, we see two principles.

1.The law of life, which is based on self-sacrificing love.
2.Another law, which leads to death, which is selfishness.

When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they acted in accordance with DA 764, separating themselves from God, and cutting themselves off from life. What led them to do so was believing the lies of the enemy, who misrepresented God's character. Believing these lies led them to doubt God, which led to their rebellion.

Since the root cause of their downfall was believing lies in regards to God's character, it follows that the root for man's being rescued is to believe the truth about God. And thus we read:



The whole purpose of Christ's mission on earth was the revelation of God, which makes sense, given the above.

I think this is right on. If sin is innocuous, then the reason not to do it is to avoid punishment. The wrath of God becomes what we need to avoid.

OTOH, if sin has fatal effects, from which God seeks to save us, regardless of the cost to Himself, sin is rightly seen as the problem, and we perceive God as a self-sacrificing Savior.

That's an interesting analogy, Aaron.

"Why was eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil fatal?"

Are you asking if I think God's law is imposed? Imagine a loving parent who tells his child not to touch the pesticides in the garage. Even saying the day you eat of this you will surely die. Well one day the kid goes out and eats it and from the toxins develops a terminal cancer from it. What does justice demand? Does justice require that the parent beats the child to death for disobeying? Is trying to save the child just even though you already warned them they would die if they got into it?


Here are some texts that might explore how sinners are destroyed.


“There is no faithfulness, no kindness, no knowledge of God in your land.... My people are being destroyed because they don’t know me. It is all your fault, you priests, for you yourselves refuse to know me... They have exchanged the glory of God for the disgrace of idols.” (Hosea 4:1,6,7 – NLT)

“My anger will flame up like fire and burn everything on earth. It will reach to the world below and consume the roots of the mountains. I will bring on them endless disasters and use all my arrows against them.” (Deuteronomy 32:22,23 – GN)

Strong words here but what does He do?

“They fail to see why they were defeated; they cannot understand what happened. Why were a thousand defeated by one, and ten thousand by only two? The Lord, their God, had abandoned them; their mighty God had given them up” (Deuteronomy 32:29,30 – GN)


“They angered him with their heathen places of worship, and with their idols they made him furious. God was angry when he saw it, so he rejected his people completely. He abandoned his tent in Shiloh, the home where he had lived among us. He allowed our enemies to capture the Covenant Box, the symbol of his power and glory.” (Psalm 78:58-61 – GN)


Tom, I really like this........

"Since the root cause of their downfall was believing lies in regards to God's character, it follows that the root for man's being rescued is to believe the truth about God."

This is from our (i.e. SDA) official web page:



We have been given a wonderful gift by God by means of "The Great Controversy" theme which pervades the Spirit of Prophecy. It's wonderful to see this emphasis being given on our official home page!



This is a great translation. Especially the last sentence is striking.

what if God is trying to prevent natural consequences from happening to us?

how would He do that?