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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#108660
02/19/09 10:25 PM
02/19/09 10:25 PM
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Yes, and it is clear that Christ had a godly mother, who did not transmit these bad traits to Christ. However, the genetic question is another issue. In terms of inclinations passed genetically, Christ received the same inclinations anyone else does. My point is that spiritual/moral inclinations, whether "genetic" (to use your term) or not, are transmitted to the mind, not to the body. When he speaks of Christ's preparing the way by uniting flesh of sin with divinity, his idea looks to be that Christ's obedience made our obedience possible, and since we have sinful flesh, Christ also had to have sinful flesh to make that possible. The Scriptures declare our problem to be precisely this - a carnal mind that must become obedient.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#108670
02/19/09 11:54 PM
02/19/09 11:54 PM
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In the passages I posted above, Ellen makes it clear that character is a quality of the soul and is revealed in the habitual thoughts, feelings, words, and actions. Character is revealed or confirmed by habitual thoughts and actions. This is very different from saying that a child is born destitute of a character. Character is the result of the repetitious choices we make and the habits we form. Obviously it cannot be inherited Ellen White says clearly that God created Adam with, or gave him, a righteous character, in harmony with His own. Obviously this is completely different from what you are saying. She also speaks about "hereditary and cultivated deformity of human character" {FE 277.1}. The tools and materials we inherit are neutral – neither sinful nor sinless. ??? So sinful tendencies are not sinful?
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#108679
02/20/09 03:06 AM
02/20/09 03:06 AM
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T:Yes, and it is clear that Christ had a godly mother, who did not transmit these bad traits to Christ. However, the genetic question is another issue. In terms of inclinations passed genetically, Christ received the same inclinations anyone else does.
R:My point is that spiritual/moral inclinations, whether "genetic" (to use your term) or not, are transmitted to the mind, not to the body. Not to the mind, but the brain, which is a part of the body. brain: the portion of the vertebrate central nervous system enclosed in the skull and continuous with the spinal cord through the foramen magnum that is composed of neurons and supporting and nutritive structures (as glia) and that integrates sensory information from inside and outside the body in controlling autonomic function (as heartbeat and respiration), in coordinating and directing correlated motor responses, and in the process of learning mind: the element or complex of elements in an individual that feels, perceives, thinks, wills, and especially reasons b: the conscious mental events and capabilities in an organism c: the organized conscious and unconscious adaptive mental activity of an organism The *mind* of Christ was unique, but his *brain* was subject to the same genetic laws that all of our brains are. All genetic inclinations which have to do with thinking, or course, are part of the formation of the brain. So if Christ's ancestors had a gift for music, for example, Christ would have had a probability of receiving that gift, and similarly for other tendencies passed to the brain. The Scriptures declare our problem to be precisely this - a carnal mind that must become obedient. We've all sinned, so we have carnal minds. A carnal mind is not a sinful nature. Christ took our sinful nature upon His own sinless nature, or sinful flesh, but not our carnal mind. If we look at what Ellen White and her contemporaries wrote, we will see they never said that Christ had a carnal mind.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#108681
02/20/09 03:25 AM
02/20/09 03:25 AM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Do you think Jesus was born in the likeness of an unconverted man or in the likeness of a converted man? Likeness to both, but identical to neither.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#108705
02/20/09 04:13 PM
02/20/09 04:13 PM
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In the passages I posted above, Ellen makes it clear that character is a quality of the soul and is revealed in the habitual thoughts, feelings, words, and actions. Character is revealed or confirmed by habitual thoughts and actions. This is very different from saying that a child is born destitute of a character. Character is the result of the repetitious choices we make and the habits we form. Obviously it cannot be inherited Ellen White says clearly that God created Adam with, or gave him, a righteous character, in harmony with His own. Obviously this is completely different from what you are saying. She also speaks about "hereditary and cultivated deformity of human character" {FE 277.1}. How do you differentiate between inherited character and cultivated character? Are people judged based on both in judgment? Quotes please. The tools and materials we inherit are neutral – neither sinful nor sinless. ??? So sinful tendencies are not sinful? I was speaking about traits. But, no, sinful tendencies are not sinful in the sense we are counted guilty on account of them. The following explains what I mean: Everyone inherits all the traits common to mankind. Traits are faculties of the mind and include virtues like honesty, kindness, goodness, patience, perseverance, humility, boldness, bravery, loyalty, temperance, trust, and the like. Traits are neutral, they are neither sinful nor sinless, which means they do not war against us or tempt us to be unlovely. Traits are not character; instead, they are qualities that enable us to create or develop character.
Traits are like building blocks, and the higher powers of the mind (reason, intellect, and conscience) are like tools we use to build character. Imagine walking into the wilderness with the tools necessary to build a log cabin. You cut down trees and then peel and size and shape them into logs, beams, studs, boards, and planks. Next, you drill holes, pound pegs, build up the walls, and raise the roof. Finally, you install trim, finish, and fixtures. And there you go. You started off with tools and raw materials and you ended up with a log cabin.
In the same way weather and health are factors that affect the process and end product of building a log cabin, so too, inherited and cultivated tendencies (inclinations, propensities) are internal factors that affect the process and end product of character development. Evil angels, worldly attractions and associations, unholy music, movies, computers, and games, as well as unhealthy foods, beverages, and recreational drugs are some of the ungodly things that constitute the external factors that impact the kind of character we end up cultivating.
Sinful habits are perversions of the traits and tools we inherit. Our sinful habits are, in the Bible, collectively called the “old man”. Choices become conduct and conduct becomes character. There is a two-way relationship between conduct and character. Conduct creates character, and character creates conduct. As you can see, it is a self-perpetuating cycle. This process also creates new sources of propensities. And, like sinful flesh propensities, sinful character propensities war against unbelievers. They tempt them from within to express and experience their innocent and legitimate physical, emotional, and spiritual needs in sinful ways. In this fashion, sinful character is developed and sinful propensities are strengthened.
As certain character traits are confirmed and solidified, the way people will react and respond under similar circumstances in the future becomes predictable. Eventually it becomes spontaneous. Such character traits are well nigh impossible to change, which is bad news in cases involving sinful character traits, but is good news in cases involving sinless character traits. And, of course, there is a corresponding relationship between cultivated traits and inherited tendencies. As sinful character traits and propensities are cultivated, so too, corresponding sinful flesh tendencies are fortified and strengthened. This cultivation-fortification process and relationship explains why related reactions and responses can spring forth spontaneously.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: asygo]
#108706
02/20/09 04:16 PM
02/20/09 04:16 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Do you think Jesus was born in the likeness of an unconverted man or in the likeness of a converted man? Likeness to both, but identical to neither. Thank you for answering my question.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#108742
02/21/09 05:21 AM
02/21/09 05:21 AM
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What do you think the "old man" is? And, how can it be crucified in the believer and exist in the believer simultaneously? Crucifixion was a long, agonizing death. When one was crucified, he did not suddenly disappear out of existence; he was still there, on the cross, crucified. So, existing and being crucified simultaneously is not a problem. What is the old man? Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, (Colossians 3:9)
The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. {SD 300.3} Let's settle this point first: The old man and cultivated sins are very much related, but they are not the same thing. These sins are to be put off with the old man, but they do not constitute the old man. Now compare these quotes: We must crucify the old man, with the affections and lusts, in order to meet the requirements of God. {RH, March 12, 1889 par. 3}
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:24) old man = flesh But now, we have here "flesh" with a different meaning than simply our bodies. Now we are talking about the "lower, corrupt nature."
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#108743
02/21/09 05:59 AM
02/21/09 05:59 AM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Posts: 5,584
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Not to the mind, but the brain, which is a part of the body. ... The *mind* of Christ was unique, but his *brain* was subject to the same genetic laws that all of our brains are. All genetic inclinations which have to do with thinking, or course, are part of the formation of the brain. If we have two people with exactly the same brain - identical in every respect, neuron for neuron - is it possible for them to have different minds? IOW, is there an aspect of "mind" that is separate from the "brain"? If so, does a person, upon creation, have a mind? Or are physical experiences necessary in order to create and develop a mind? (Note: Upon conception, a person has no brain, at least not the way we normally think of it. Upon creation, Adam had a brain, but no experiences.)
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: asygo]
#108744
02/21/09 07:00 AM
02/21/09 07:00 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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E. J. Hibbard wrote a book called, "The Two Laws" around the turn of the century (20th) which talked about the ceremonial and moral law. I remembered the following statement, especially the very last sentence, as I was reading about the flesh above, and happily google came to the rescue. Has Christ, then, descended to our world and to our level, and in our place obtained complete victory over "the world," only in order that He may sit on the right hand of the Majesty on high, and taunt us with our failures in struggling against sin?--God forbid. Says Jesus, "Be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." Now "all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." 1 John 2:16. In overcoming the world, then, Christ overcame "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life,"--all things which are "not of the Father."
The world which Christ overcame was in His flesh. (E. J. Hibbard, The Two Laws)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin?
[Re: Tom]
#108745
02/21/09 07:04 AM
02/21/09 07:04 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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If we have two people with exactly the same brain - identical in every respect, neuron for neuron - is it possible for them to have different minds? Of course. Identical twins demonstrate this. Also one's destiny would be set if this were not the case. IOW, is there an aspect of "mind" that is separate from the "brain"? Yes, which was my point. If so, does a person, upon creation, have a mind? If by "upon creation" you mean conception, no, a person does not have a mind (or a brain, for that matter). Or are physical experiences necessary in order to create and develop a mind? (Note: Upon conception, a person has no brain, at least not the way we normally think of it. Upon creation, Adam had a brain, but no experiences.) Yes, experiences are necessary in order to develop a mind, just as experiences are necessary to develop character.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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