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Re: What's wrong with "sinning not"
#11477
11/15/04 04:46 AM
11/15/04 04:46 AM
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SDA
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Yes, we agree that justification by faith is the only standard upon which our eternal destiny is determined in judgment. But according to both the Bible and the SOP only those who are living up to the light God has revealed to them yield the rich rewards of justification of salvation. In this case, as Thomas pointed out, faith is a verb, an action word. Sister White concurs:
1SM 396
No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty. (1 SM 396)
7BC 908
Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification. (7 BC 908)
FW 100
God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. (FW 100)
It is clear, then, that no one will be in heaven who failed to crucify their defective traits of character, who failed to attain to the completeness of Christian character. In this specific sense, the resurrected saints and the translated saints are no different. Again, Sister White concurs. The following quotes apply to both the resurrected and the translated saints:
4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. (4T 429)
MYP 144
A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. He who enters heaven must have a character that is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Naught that defileth can ever enter there. In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. {MYP 144.2}
Thus, the difference between Martin Luther, Mother Tereasa and the 144,000 is certain intellectual truths, biblical knowledge, but so far as attaining to perfection of character, the only standard of salvation in judgment, there is no difference. I am NOT implying that the biblical truths that distinquish them are unimportant, no, not at all. But in judgment, what matters for salvation, is whether or not we have overcome as Jesus overcame, that is, whether or not we successfully and consistently stay connected to God and resist the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by our sinful nature - that's what it means to overcome as Jesus overcame. See Rev 3:21.
Tom, our differences on this topic are astounding and significant, the implications are worlds apart. Hopefully others will join in on this study and help make headway.
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Re: What's wrong with "sinning not"
#11478
11/14/04 07:55 PM
11/14/04 07:55 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly, repeated more frequently, or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man meriting anything by his own best good works. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (FW 18)
quote:
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28, 29)
I believe that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Synonymns for faith would include "appreciation" and "gratitude". Hence true faith always is manifest in good works as one cannot appreciate the love of God nor be grateful to Him for the salvation freely given in Christ without that appreciation/gratitude being made manifest in ones works.
What is your definition of faith? Does it make faith into a work? Do we merit our salvation? Or is it a free gift?
Regarding the quotes involving character, it is clear that character is the key question. Are our characters in harmony with God? If we were to come into contact with God face to face, what would our response be? Would we love Him? Would we want to be in His presence? Or would His presence make us uncomfortable? That's the bottom line, isn't it?
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Re: What's wrong with "sinning not"
#11479
11/14/04 08:10 PM
11/14/04 08:10 PM
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SDA
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No, the bottom line is - "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Cor 2:2. Freedom from sin, freedom to serve Him - that's the bottom line, in my opinion.
My definition of faith is - Faith that works by love and purifies the soul. We are saved "unto" good works, not because "of" our good works. Our good works honor and glorify God, like a light in a dark place. Yes, we are saved by faith alone, but genuine faith is never alone, good works is always the fruit of faith. To believe on Jesus is to behave like Jesus. We cannot divorce faith and works and salvation. They are inseparable.
Galatians
5:6 Faith which worketh by love.
Ephesians
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Matthew
5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
John
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
FW 100
God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. (FW 100)
[ November 14, 2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
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Re: What's wrong with "sinning not"
#11480
11/14/04 08:35 PM
11/14/04 08:35 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
FW 100
God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. (FW 100)
This quote along with the bible passages which it is based on is the ideal, and may also be something which many of us dont understand. In my case it is so much easier to look for wisdom like the greeks (1 Corinthians 1:22 (18-31)) by personality, the way of the culture of the west and may I add also the culture of the SDA church. Others may be likewise inclined for miracles like the jews by personality and church culture but how many knows what it truly is to live from the heart?
/Thomas
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Re: What's wrong with "sinning not"
#11481
11/14/04 08:53 PM
11/14/04 08:53 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
I believe that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Synonymns for faith would include "appreciation" and "gratitude". Hence true faith always is manifest in good works as one cannot appreciate the love of God nor be grateful to Him for the salvation freely given in Christ without that appreciation/gratitude being made manifest in ones works.
What is your definition of faith? Does it make faith into a work? Do we merit our salvation? Or is it a free gift?
I heard an illustration for the "faith is a verb" idea. Its about a wooden chair. You have faith that it will hold you when you sit down on it. If you loudly declare your faith in its capability to hold you but do not (dare?) place your weight on it, do you then really have faith in it? Or in the words of James
quote:
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[4] ? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[5] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Is salvation then earned? No. Becourse the faith we have we have recieved from God.
quote:
Ephesians 2
7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
1 Corinthians 12
8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[1] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[2]
/Thomas
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Re: What's wrong with "sinning not"
#11482
11/14/04 09:35 PM
11/14/04 09:35 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I wrote: quote:
Regarding the quotes involving character, it is clear that character is the key question. Are our characters in harmony with God? If we were to come into contact with God face to face, what would our response be? Would we love Him? Would we want to be in His presence? Or would His presence make us uncomfortable? That's the bottom line, isn't it?
To which you replied, no, the bottom line is beholding Christ. I'm confused. Do be behold the character of someone who we don't love? Or someone whose presence makes us uncomfortable? Exactly what is it that I wrote that you are disagreeing with?
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Re: What's wrong with "sinning not"
#11483
11/15/04 12:06 AM
11/15/04 12:06 AM
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SDA
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Perhaps we were talking about two different issues? I believe the bottom line here on earth is overcoming sin and imitating the example of Jesus. It looks like you were talking about feeling loved and comfortable in heaven. I know God loves me, and it motivates me to overcome sin and to imitate the example of Jesus.
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Re: What's wrong with "sinning not"
#11484
11/15/04 12:42 AM
11/15/04 12:42 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Let's go back to what I wrote: quote:
Regarding the quotes involving character, it is clear that character is the key question. Are our characters in harmony with God? If we were to come into contact with God face to face, what would our response be? Would we love Him? Would we want to be in His presence? Or would His presence make us uncomfortable? That's the bottom line, isn't it?
Do you think God will take people into heaven who would not be comfortable in His presence? You'll notice the rest of the quotation talks about our having characters in harmony with God. Do you disagree with that? I'm still not clear what you're disagreeing with.
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Re: What's wrong with "sinning not"
#11485
11/15/04 02:57 AM
11/15/04 02:57 AM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Southwest USA
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Having characters in harmony with God's law and will is what makes it possible to stand in the presence of God without fear, in total peace of mind. In this I'm sure we agree. What we don't seem to agree upon is whether or not everyone must attain to the completeness of Christian character in order to be in heaven. I believe all those quotes plainly say, Yes, if we hope to enjoy bliss with Jesus for eternity we must consent and cooperate with the Holy Spirit to crucify our old man habits of sin, and imitate the sinless example of Jesus.
I believe this experience is available to us the moment we are born again. You seem to believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that only the 144,000 will be able to attain to the completeness of character perfection, because the truth necessary to have this experience is not yet available, and will become available only during the time of the 144,000.
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Re: What's wrong with "sinning not"
#11486
11/15/04 04:18 AM
11/15/04 04:18 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I mentioned in an earlier post the "perfection of character" can mean different things depending on the context. In terms of going to heaven, I believe that God will take all those to heaven who would be happy there. Those who would be happy there are those whose characters are in harmony with Him, which is the same set of people as those who are justified by faith.
If by "perfection of character" you mean not commiting known sins, then I believe this has been possible for all who have ever lived.
The 144,000 will stand before God without a mediator. This experience is a new experience, which includes victory over all sin, not just known sin. Christ's work in the Most Holy Place involves cleansing us from unknown sin. This was not possible before 1844. This experience is dependent on new light, which the Spirit of Prophesy tells us began in 1888. A. T. Jones' sermons from 1895 deal with this theme at length, and he quotes abudantly from the Spirit of Prophesy in his sermons. His book "The Consecrated Way to Perfection" also touches on this theme, although not in as much detail as the aforementioned sermons.
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