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Re: Blood of Christ #11948
12/14/04 05:02 AM
12/14/04 05:02 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I agree with Ikan's thoughts. The record of sin is in the heavenly sanctuary. The record of sin corresponds to the reality of our characters, so the cleansing of the sanctuary goes hand in hand with our characters reproducing the character of Christ. In order for us to reproduce His character, we must behold it. God is giving us great light regarding His character and the principles of the Great Controversy. The genious of the Seventh-day Adventist church is the message of God's character:

quote:
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)
Regarding which part of the heavenly sanctuary is literal and which is metaphorical, I don't know, and I don't think it's important to know. The important thing is to learn that which God is trying to teach us.

I'll give an example of something I definately think is not literal. The veil of the type had angels sewn on them. It seems silly to me to suppose that the curtains in heaven have angels sewn on them when there are thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand of the real thing. I think everything that goes on there is real. Real is a better word than literal. For example, the ministry of Christ. Christ started a new ministry on 10/22/1844 before which His coming was not possible, but after which His coming could have happened very quickly. That's very significant. What is Christ doing? What's so important about it? These are questions I believe we should be interested in.

Regarding A. G. Maxwell, I've only recently really become acquainted with him. I think he is hugely misunderstood. People think he doesn't believe in a legal atonement, but he has always denied that accusation. His brother, C. Mervyn Maxwell, says the same thing (that is, that his brother is misunderstood). I like A. G. Maxwell's overall ideas regarding the character of God very much, and also his thoughts about justification by faith. I like my thoughts regarding the legal atonement better than his. My thoughts can be seen in the thread "justification" which I started.

I believe the endorsements of Ellen G. White regarding the 1888 message. My thoughts regarding justification by faith have been influenced to a far, far greater degree by Waggoner and Jones than by A. G. Maxwell. Also I've been very much influenced by Ellen G. White, which should be obvious by reading my posts.

Re: Blood of Christ #11949
12/14/04 05:57 PM
12/14/04 05:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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I agree with John. The sanctuary makes it clear that Jesus earned the right to own our sins and second death on the cross, that they are, in some mysterious way, quarantined within His blood and transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by virtue of His presence. Yes, our sins are also on record in the MHP, but it doesn’t negate the fact they are also quarantined within the blood of Jesus Himself.

Re: Blood of Christ #11950
12/14/04 06:44 PM
12/14/04 06:44 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Jesus earned the right to own our sins
quote:
they [our sins] are also quarantined within the blood of Jesus Himself.
What do these statements mean?

Re: Blood of Christ #11951
12/14/04 10:06 PM
12/14/04 10:06 PM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
I think what Mike's trying to say (and correct me if I'm wrong Mike) is that the sins of believers are literally, actually transferred from the believing sinner, through the merits of the blood of Christ, to the heavenly sanctuary by a mystical process we limited mortals can't really understand.

Note Ellen White's description of what happened in the earthly sanctuary services:
"Important truths concerning the atonement are taught by the typical service. A substitute was accepted in the sinner's stead; but the sin was not canceled by the blood of the victim. A means was thus provided by which it was transferred to the sanctuary. By the offering of blood the sinner acknowledged the authority of the law, confessed his guilt in transgression, and expressed his desire for pardon through faith in a Redeemer to come; but he was not yet entirely released from the condemnation of the law. On the Day of Atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims. Then, in his character of mediator, he took the sins upon himself and bore them from the sanctuary. Placing his hands upon the head of the scapegoat, he confessed over him all these sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the goat. The goat then bore them away, and they were regarded as forever separated from the people."
{GC 420.1}
Then she describes what Jesus does by contrast:
"As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary. And as the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded....
{GC 421.3}

"It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty."
{GC 422.2}
These are real, literal transactions on the part of our High Priest. They were figurative in the earthly tabernacle services, but we're told that they are done "in fact" in the New Covenant. His shed blood gives Him the right to do this; it's evident that sin is actually removed from penitent believers through the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and transferred to the sanctuary in heaven; to be transferred onto Satan at the end of the Investigative Judgment.

Re: Blood of Christ #11952
12/15/04 05:36 AM
12/15/04 05:36 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
I think what Mike's trying to say (and correct me if I'm wrong Mike) is that the sins of believers are literally, actually transferred from the believing sinner, through the merits of the blood of Christ, to the heavenly sanctuary by a mystical process we limited mortals can't really understand.
Mike said the sins were quarantined with the blood itself, not that Christ by the merits of His blood transfered to Himself. What you're saying makes slightly more sense than what he said, but it's still incomprehensible, as you yourself state, "by a mystical process we limited mortals can't really understand."

We might as well be Catholics who believe that at communion it's the literal blood and body of Christ that being consumed, "by a mystical process we limited mortals can't really understand." Really, what's the difference?

Re: Blood of Christ #11953
12/15/04 06:28 AM
12/15/04 06:28 AM
John H.  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,150
North Carolina, USA
What I'm saying is what Ellen White said. I'm sorry that's so incomprehensible to you.

The difference is that much of Catholic doctrine is man-made, and what Ellen White said is straight from God. The passages above are very plain in their meaning, for those who take time to digest them.

Of course many parts of the salvation process are not able to be understood by limited humans. "The secret things belong unto the Lord our God." (Deut. 29:29)

Or, do you claim to understand it all?

Re: Blood of Christ #11954
12/15/04 11:40 AM
12/15/04 11:40 AM
C
Charity  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Tom, regarding the meaning of the passage in Matthew 23, it might appear on the surface that Christ is saying that He will hold the Jews of His day accountable for the murder of the prophets and saint from the time of Cain forward. However, what Christ means I think is that when God withdraws His protecting care from the impenitent Jews and from the wicked at the end, there will be such scenes of woe and bloodshed that it will seem like the collective guilt of humanity is being punished in the final generation. In reality, the final generation is reaping the results of their own doings – they are not suffering for the sins of their fathers. Their fathers did not receive the punishment that was their due because mercy still lingered for the world as a whole. But when the world grieves away the Holy Spirit and the period of grace is over and the plagues fall, the final generation is an object lesson of what happens to all men when men reject the mercy of God and refuse to repent. Through their oppression of the righteous and their rejection of truth they fill up the cup of unmingled wrath so that in Babylon, the blood of all the martyrs is found. In other words in the wickedness, in the injustice, in the impenitence and in the judgments and plagues of Babylon we will have a demonstration of the results of sin from the beginning of its history. The man of sin will be fully revealed.

I’m still uncomfortable Tom, with your statement that the blood of Christ is not the real cleansing agent. Yes, Christ is the truth. He is the word made flesh. But it is the humanity - the human flesh and blood of the Son - that make the truth personal. Truth in the abstract - that is, the letter of the law - can do nothing for us. In the blood of Christ truth is personalized and washes away sin. In the blood of Christ mercy and truth meet together, righteousness and peace kiss each other.

However I'm satisfied that your views are not as troubling as I might have thought at first. What is the nub of your views that you want to get across here, on this, and on the other topics? Would a point-form explanation work in helping you to get that across? Or a comparative/contrasting list?

Re: Blood of Christ #11955
12/15/04 08:17 PM
12/15/04 08:17 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I agree with your first paragraph, and think it was very well stated. I don't think I commented on your question as to what I thought that verse meant, which lack was not be design but by neglect. I don't think I could have explained things as well as you did, but would add a small point that I think Jesus had in mind, which is that although those to whom Jesus was speaking did not actually kill the other prophets, they manifested a spirit which showed that they would have killed them had they had the opportunity.

quote:
I’m still uncomfortable Tom, with your statement that the blood of Christ is not the real cleansing agent.
I'm quite sure I didn't say what you said I said. I think it would be better to post direct quotes, and then I could retract my statement if necessary (if I misspoke, or spoke unclearly) or clarify it.

I don't have a problem saying that the blood of Christ is the real cleansing agent. I believe it's true that Christ's blood washes away our sin. The question is, what does this mean? I think (hope) we have all agreed by this point that it is not meant to be taken literally.

Have you read the post I wrote on justification? I think that would be the best summary of my thoughts. Also, have you read Ty Gibson's books, such as "See Him With New Eyes" or "Shade of Grace"? I like what he writes very much, and my views are very similar to his if you're familiar with them.

Here's a bit from See With New Eyes:

quote:
The Father of the universe continually pours forth an endless river of love to all, which will eventually prove to be either eternal life or utter destruction to every person. Never does anything contrary to His love proceed from Him, and the intent of that love is always to give and sustain life, never to destroy... Healing to those who embrace it, because the love of God cleanses the ehart of its guilt and shame. Horrible to those who reject it, because the very same love cannot avoid drawing attention to the infinite contrast which exists between itself and human sinfulness....

Acceptance of His mercy always tends the heart toward reighteousness. Those who embrace God's mercy for sin inevitably fall in love with Him and seek to incorporate the principles of His law into their lives....

Sin's power is broken by means of revelation, by the enlightenment of the mind and emotions concerning the true character of God. When we see and believe the love that God has toard us, sin loses its hold on our heart...

There is nothing more healing to the sinful heart than to be fully known and yet fully loved. Those who met Jesus sensed that He knew everything about them and still loved them. (54, 55)

Sorry to have that long a quote, but it states more eloquently than I how I'm thinking.

In my own words I would say, regarding the atonement, that the main problem is not legal (this is not denying the legal aspect at all, just saying it's not the primary problem). The main problem is an actual reconciliation of human hearts to God. This is accomplished by means of the cross.

To say that God had to provide a sacrifice in order that He could forgive us is to my mind the height of folly. God forgives us because He is love. It is out of His love that He provides the sacrifice. The driving point, the starting point, is God's love. God is love. God so loved the world that He gave His Son. That's Christianity.

Paganism is that God is a vengeful, hating God who se wrath must be appeased. He must kill something. So He doesn't have to kill us, He kills Christ instead.

To summarize in a single word a word that I am against is "arbitrary." There is nothing arbitrary about the Plan of Salvation. God is good. Knowing Him is life eternal. Sin is bad. Being one with it is death. Death not because God arbitrarily inflicts pain on those who practice it, but because it is by its very nature evil. Sin is selfishness, and selfishness is suicidal, because it cuts one off from God, who is the fountain of life.

Well I've waxed eloquent long enough. Thanks for input Mark, and if you have any more questions I'd be happy to answer them.

Re: Blood of Christ #11956
12/16/04 12:01 AM
12/16/04 12:01 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, again, I agree with John, and the quote he shared. The idea that Jesus earned the right to own our sins and second makes sense to me, but I realize you're not comfortable with the idea. In some ways, sin is a commodity, and I realize you're not comfortable with this idea either.

Since our sins and second death were not eliminated at the cross, that means they still exist somewhere. I believe they exist within the blood of Jesus, within the heavenly sanctuary, which I admit is a mystery, but I don't have a problem with it being a mystery. Yes, there is also a record of our sins in the MHP.

Re: Blood of Christ #11957
12/16/04 02:37 AM
12/16/04 02:37 AM
C
Charity  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Does God punish, Tom? Does He enforce? Who records our sins? Isn't it the good angels? Why would a God of love do that - invest a significant part of the resources of the universe in keeping a record of our lives? Or do you think He does that? I believe He does and that it is truly the blood of Christ that is the only way the heavenly records can be cleansed and our characters revitalized? Yes, I believe I am truly washed in His blood. It is wonderful. I believe that shows the love of God - the lengths He will go to in order to justify a sinner, even me! Do you find that picture of God arbitary? If so, can you tell me why?

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