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Re: Blood of Christ
#11848
11/30/04 12:20 AM
11/30/04 12:20 AM
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OP
New Member (Starting to Post)
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8
Nevada
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
I think it's a metaphor. The blood of Jesus refers to His death on the cross, which reveals the truth to us about...
It washes us from sin because when we learn the truth about God, that truth transforms us, changes us from rebels into friends. It becomes our desire to be like Him, and to follow the principles of His government, which are principles of love and truth.
Tom,
Amen brother. If we view blood as a metaphor for truth than we have what will turn the world upside down. What went wrong in the universe? Sin or distrust right? How did God deal with it?
By ultimately coming to this earth to show us what He is like...it was his PRIMARY goal. In John 17:3 Jesus says, "And what is eternal life? Knowing you the one true God..." He goes on to explain His mission in verse 4, "I have brought you glory on earth. I have finished the work you gave me to do..." And Jesus hadn't even died yet!
I would like to suggest that had Christ died in Gethsemane (and He would have not an angel been sent to revive Him) His mission would have been accomplished..to glorify God and show the universe His character. But the glaringly public way of dying on a cross was prophetic and must be fulfilled and so it went, God breathed His last breath hanging as a "criminal." His death had to be seen by many so that they and more importantly the universe could see where sin leads. The cross glorifies God! It vindicates God and strikes in the very face of the accusations of Satan that God cannot be trusted.
What did the cross (blood, death, sacrifice etc.) reveal? That God doesn't kill, sin does.
Love and Peace,
Stacie
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11849
11/30/04 01:48 AM
11/30/04 01:48 AM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, the basis of Satan’s accusations is what the great controversy is all about. When Adam and Eve sinned, Satan’s accusations were implied. Consequently, they had to be dealt with, that is, God must disapprove them. Thus, He cannot just blow off our sin and rebellion. Yes, in order to justify forgiving our sin and rebellion, in light of the law of sin and death, God needs legal justification; this is provided in the perfect life and death of Jesus. God cannot justify forgiving our sin and rebellion without the shedding of Christ’s blood, our substitute.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11850
11/30/04 02:10 AM
11/30/04 02:10 AM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Stacie, I suspect from the questions and objections posted above that you are of the opinion God did not require the life and death of Jesus as a condition upon which He could justify forgiving our sin and rebellion. If this is the case, then I also suspect our discussion will yield unfavorable results.
Is God an angry and bloodthirsty Deity that must needs be appeased? No! Did He establish the law of sin and death? Yes! Did He promise life and death conditional on obedience and disobedience? Yes! Does it make Him bloodthirsty if He keeps His promises? No! Is He a tyrant because He accepted Jesus’ offer to die for our sins? No!
Did God require death for sin? Yes! Did Jesus die the second death? No! He consumed and conquered it when He drained the cup of trembling. Satan will die with our sin and second in the lake of fire. Why did God establish the law of sin and death? Why is the blood of Jesus necessary for salvation? I don’t have a perfect answer. No one does.
The best thing to tell the guy who is just about to shoot himself in the head, or the 10 year child pointing to the scars of Jesus, or the sincere seeker, or anybody else, the best thing to tell them is what Jesus Himself said:
John
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11851
11/30/04 02:16 AM
11/30/04 02:16 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Stacie, the idea that Jesus accomplished everything He set out to do before He left Gethsemane is blasphemous.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11852
11/30/04 05:34 AM
11/30/04 05:34 AM
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OP
New Member (Starting to Post)
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8
Nevada
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Stacie, the idea that Jesus accomplished everything He set out to do before He left Gethsemane is blasphemous.
Mike,
Man, it sounds blasphemous doesn't it? Tell me,
why did Jesus have to die on a cross? Why not on a rack? Why not a spear through the heart? Why not in a private garden? What is it about the cross that indicates a fulfillment of His mission?
Peace and Love,
Stacie
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11853
11/30/04 05:49 AM
11/30/04 05:49 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Jesus did not cry, It is finished, until just before He laid down His life on the cross. Obviously, therefore, He didn't accomplish everything in Gethsemane.
DA 758
Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. {DA 758.1}
Why a cross? It was the means God chose. To second guess why God chose to die on a cross probably isn't wise, but to suggest that it could have been done some other way approaches treason. It is better, always better, to stick with the facts. Conjecture and speculation are the tools of the enemy.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11854
11/30/04 06:06 AM
11/30/04 06:06 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, the basis of Satan’s accusations is what the great controversy is all about. When Adam and Eve sinned, Satan’s accusations were implied. Consequently, they had to be dealt with, that is, God must disapprove them. Thus, He cannot just blow off our sin and rebellion. Yes, in order to justify forgiving our sin and rebellion, in light of the law of sin and death, God needs legal justification; this is provided in the perfect life and death of Jesus. God cannot justify forgiving our sin and rebellion without the shedding of Christ’s blood, our substitute.
Mike, what I'm taking issue with is the "thus". That "thus" is misplaced. It is not because of Satan's accusations that God "cannot just blow off our sin and rebellion." Satan's accusations have nothing to do with this (althought they have to do with the Great Controversy, of course).
No, the reason that God "cannot just blow off our sin and rebellion" is because that would have done nothing to solve the problem. The problem is in our hearts, irrespective of Satan's accusations. God revealed Himself to us in Jesus Christ that the doubt which Satan instilled in us could be replaced by love and trust.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11855
11/30/04 06:15 AM
11/30/04 06:15 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Stacie, I suspect from the questions and objections posted above that you are of the opinion God did not require the life and death of Jesus as a condition upon which He could justify forgiving our sin and rebellion.
Justify to whom?
When Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do?" do we surmise that God could hear that prayer on the basis of Christ's death? In other words, God could justify hearing Christ's prayer to forgive them for putting Him to death because He would die in order for that prayer to be heard?
It makes more sense to me to say that God forgives sin because it is His nature to do so. His character is "merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth."
The forgivenss which the cross effects is all about us, not about God. He didn't need the cross in order to forgive us -- we needed the cross in order to be forgiven.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11856
11/30/04 06:48 AM
11/30/04 06:48 AM
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OP
New Member (Starting to Post)
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8
Nevada
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quote:
Stacie, I suspect from the questions and objections posted above that you are of the opinion God did not require the life and death of Jesus as a condition upon which He could justify forgiving our sin and rebellion.
Right on. God forgave the wicked crowd as he hung on the cross and they didn't ask for it. God has forgiven us before we even ask. Our confession isn't to clear us before Him but to clear us for US. We must recognize our accountability before the healing can begin.
quote:
If this is the case, then I also suspect our discussion will yield unfavorable results.
Why is that? Difference of opinion is one of the most mind expanding experiences we could ever have. The more we disagree the more of a chance we have to demonstrate our graciousness toward one another. I love you man! ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
quote:
Did God require death for sin?
Really? Please explain.
quote:
Why is the blood of Jesus necessary for salvation? I don’t have a perfect answer. No one does.
Ouch. If we don't know the answer to this one we need to find a different religion. Our hope and trust is not based on mystery. (Col. 1:24-29)
I do believe that what we have going on here is cause and effect, not a legal tangle. The legal model only applies to the demands of a natural law, sin demands death...not God. You sin, you die...at the hands of God? No! At your own hand, your own choice to choose death.
Love and Peace,
Stacie
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11857
11/30/04 06:56 AM
11/30/04 06:56 AM
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OP
New Member (Starting to Post)
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8
Nevada
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quote:
Why a cross? It was the means God chose. To second guess why God chose to die on a cross probably isn't wise, but to suggest that it could have been done some other way approaches treason. It is better, always better, to stick with the facts. Conjecture and speculation are the tools of the enemy.
I say we ought to question it all and very seriously, soberly, and prayerfully. We must second guess it all until we are convicted through and through. We must be settled in truth and the settling does not come about by ingesting half-digested church doctrine. That brings malnutrition, disease and finally death.
Only truth can hold up under conjecture and speculation. Deception cannot bear the pressure so yes, we must put forth great effort to ask God, "Why?" and because He is truth, He can afford to be fair. Satan would love nothing more than for us to stop questioning because he knows that deep inquiry is what cements the truth in our forebrains. God is on trial and the investigative judgement is not for God to determine who is "clean" but for His creatures to decide whether or not He can be trusted.
Love and Peace,
Stacie
PS Mike, why was not a sacrifice required when Satan rebelled in heaven sparking this whole GC? God asked him back time after time and yet without a sacrifice to preceed it.
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