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Elucidation on the State of the Dead as Viewed by Jesus
#120479
10/14/09 11:45 AM
10/14/09 11:45 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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This study, being truly impressive in its final implications, and being unrelated to the topic of marriage in the New Earth, in spite of the fact that Jesus took special opportunity to speak to this issue when answering the Jews' question on that, is started here as a separate thread. To view the lead up discussion and inspiration for this, please click here. This thread might also be named "The State of Life" as opposed to the State of the Dead. Both will be covered here, particularly as they relate to Jesus' and/or God's perspective. First, in order to understand the better known subject of death in the light of Christ's words, it is simplest to focus first on the "life" portion, and then look at its opposite. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Notice the verb tense. The verb tense is the key here. Present tense. This is the same tense used here: But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matthew 22:31-32) Jesus speaks of a time in the past when God spoke to the Israelites these words, referring to His being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus' listeners know very well that these patriarchs are no longer living. They even know where these men are buried. But Jesus next startles them by saying "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." This can only mean one of two things: 1) Jesus is saying that God's earlier words to the Israelites were false; or 2) Jesus is saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not dead, but alive. Either one of these meanings would shock them. However, the first one is unthinkable--that God would lie--so the second one is the only option truly remaining. Considering we know of a certainty that the patriarchs were in their graves awaiting the resurrection, what did Jesus mean? How could they be "alive?" Here are the other two angles on the same passage: And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. (Mark 12:24-27)
And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luke 20:34-38) Both Mark and Luke speak of the resurrection as being future. In Luke, however, there is a slight twist--Jesus explains the fact that the resurrection day is alluded to by God Himself when speaking to Moses at the burning bush! This seems a clear thrust at the Sadducees' doctrine of "no resurrection." In the same words, Jesus implies that the Jewish leaders should have known that God is not a God of the dead, but of the living. To be continued in next post... Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Elucidation on the State of the Dead as Viewed by Jesus
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120480
10/14/09 11:46 AM
10/14/09 11:46 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Let's look at some more of Jesus' perspective on life. These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11:11-14) Here, Jesus calls death a "sleep." Why? Because Lazarus is "alive" in His estimation. Lazarus was a righteous man. Had He not been righteous, he would have been dead, instead of merely asleep. God is not the God of the dead (they have chosen another God), but of the living (those who are "alive" in Christ). Let's look at Jesus' perspective on the opposite fact: death. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matthew 23:27-33) Here we see Jesus speaking of the Scribes and Pharisees as though they were dead. It is clear to all that the subjects of His attention are alive (physically). Why, then, does Jesus call them "dead?" (You can't get much more dead than to be as a painted casket with mere bones and filth left inside!) Jesus' perspective on life and death essentially boils down to two spiritual states: 1) Those who are "alive" are those who have Christ. 2) Those who are "dead" are those who are divorced from God. Regarding these two points, it matters not where on the time line of one's physical life/death one might be. The only difference would be that death distinctly finishes probationary time, forever sealing one's spiritual state. For those who are His at death, the Bible says this: "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints" (Psalm 116:15). Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Elucidation on the State of the Dead as Viewed by Jesus
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120484
10/14/09 02:31 PM
10/14/09 02:31 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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GC, clearly Jesus believed death is a sleep because He will raise them up again. I think this applies to both the righteous and the unrighteous in the sense both will be raised up again. No one is truly dead until they perish in the lake of fire.
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Re: Elucidation on the State of the Dead as Viewed by Jesus
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120486
10/14/09 02:39 PM
10/14/09 02:39 PM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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GC, In the other thread you said, I partly agree with you here, and partly disagree. Sleep is a metaphor for death, true enough. However, it is not applicable to every death. There are some deaths which would not be a "sleep." I think I partly agree with you, and partly disagree. I see physical death as a sleep in every case. Spiritual death is another thing. You may have existence here, but if you don't have the eternal life in Christ, you are spiritually dead. As to the physical death, it is a sleep to the wicked too, because they will wake up from it. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22). "In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. 'There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;' 'for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.' Acts 24:15; I Corinthians 15:22. But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. 'All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.' John 5:28, 29." {GC 544.2}
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Re: Elucidation on the State of the Dead as Viewed by Jesus
[Re: Rosangela]
#120495
10/14/09 04:13 PM
10/14/09 04:13 PM
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OP
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My question to both Rosangela and Mike would be...why did Jesus call some who were physically living, dead? If they were dead, while yet alive, don't you suppose they would so much the more so, if they die literally while in that spiritually dead condition? I agree that all (or nearly so) will be raised again, whether wicked or righteous. But I believe that once raised, the wicked dead will still be "dead" in the spiritual sense of being divorced from God/life. Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life." Without Him, no one truly has life. "I have come that they might have life, and have it more abundantly," Jesus said. Without Him, we are dead. If we are also in the grave, so much the more. Do you both agree that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were only considered alive because they were "resting" in Christ? What about the Sodomites who had been visited with the vengeance of God--were they also "alive" in the same sense the patriarchs were? What are your thoughts on these? To my view, as the disciples pointed out to Christ, one can only "sleep" if one is alive. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Elucidation on the State of the Dead as Viewed by Jesus
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120499
10/14/09 04:59 PM
10/14/09 04:59 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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All good so far Greenie, but you still have not presented the case Jesus was referring to when He pointed at the scriptures. The new testament was still happening back then and would not have been what Jesus pointed to.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Elucidation on the State of the Dead as Viewed by Jesus
[Re: vastergotland]
#120508
10/14/09 10:51 PM
10/14/09 10:51 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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Vaster,
Jesus pointed to the burning bush. Did I fail to mention this?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Elucidation on the State of the Dead as Viewed by Jesus
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120514
10/15/09 02:13 AM
10/15/09 02:13 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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GC, the spiritually dead are very much alive in the terrestrial sense. And, like the righteous dead, the sinful dead are also asleep in the sense they will one day awake. No one is currently dead. Real death will not occur until the wicked perish in the lake of fire.
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Re: Elucidation on the State of the Dead as Viewed by Jesus
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120520
10/15/09 04:59 AM
10/15/09 04:59 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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That's an interesting perspective, Mike. But it still does not explain why Jesus called some who were alive "dead."
Can you explain that?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Elucidation on the State of the Dead as Viewed by Jesus
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120521
10/15/09 07:15 AM
10/15/09 07:15 AM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Vaster,
Jesus pointed to the burning bush. Did I fail to mention this?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. Greenie, I dont think the burning bush is all one needs to understand to be able to understand Jesus reply to the Sadduces. Had that been all there is to the question in the jewish scriptures im sure it would not have been an issue.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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