". . . His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." Why is His presence necessary?

How will His glory destroy them?

M: Who or what will make the difference?

T: It's being the judgment is the difference.

M:Why?

2. Since one sin is enough to cause death, why are the wicked able to endure revisiting millions of sins without dying prematurely? Who or what will prevent them from dying before they revisit their last sin?

T: I answered this.

I don't recall your answer. Please restate it here.

3. What role does literal fire play in the "punishment" of the wicked? See quote below.

T: Literal fire purifies the earth, which includes the dead.

M:The quotes doesn't portray it that way. Instead, literal fire engulfs the planet while the wicked are alive. What effect does it have on the wicked before they die?

M: ". . . His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." Why is His presence necessary?

T: God is everywhere.

M: How will His glory destroy them?

T: This was explained in the Ty quote (the part about the vital forces). Please remember that the problem is spiritual and not physical, when considering God's glory and presence.

M: Who or what will make the difference?

T: It's being the judgment is the difference.

M: Why?

T: Because the judgment is when the truth is revealed to the lost.

2. Since one sin is enough to cause death, why are the wicked able to endure revisiting millions of sins without dying prematurely? Who or what will prevent them from dying before they revisit their last sin?

T: I answered this.

M: I don't recall your answer. Please restate it here.

T: I can't remember what I said. Please try doing a search on "millions" and it should come up. Basically I think I said something about you're looking at this differently than I do. You seem to have a very physical concept of things. I believe the problem is a spiritual one, where the wicked, after having the truth revealed to them, voluntarily choose to be excluded from heaven. GC 541-543 would be good to look at in this regard.

3. What role does literal fire play in the "punishment" of the wicked? See quote below.

T: Literal fire purifies the earth, which includes the dead.

M: The quotes doesn't portray it that way. Instead, literal fire engulfs the planet while the wicked are alive. What effect does it have on the wicked before they die?

T: The quotes do portray it that way. DA 764, GC 541-543, DA 108 all make clear the fire which destroys the wicked cannot be a literal fire. DA 764 says "the glory of God will destroy them." That couldn't be clearer. God's glory is not literal fire. It's His character. The quote itself makes it clear that this is what's being referred to, as it says "the glory of Him who is love." That God is love has to do with His character. It's not radiant firelight that's love, but God who is love.

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

Then every sinner everywhere should be consumed. Ellen wrote: “To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1} Why isn’t the presence of God causing sinners to die now?

Ty essentially said comprehending the character of God is what will kill the wicked. Is that what you believe?

Sinners are judged according to the truth they rejected. If God waits until judgment to reveal the truth to them how can they be judged by it?

You didn’t address my questions.

Suffering and death are, by the way, very much physical aspects of judgment.

Yes, there is a spiritual aspect, which you admit results in physical suffering and death. So, please answer my questions.

Nowhere in the following description of fire is the word “glory” used:

The idea that this “fire” is symbolic of God’s character is a hard sell.

I believe God's radiant firelight will be present; however, literal from above and from below will also be present. I don't see how you can disagree.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.

It's not the judgment now.

So God is holding off on this until the judgment. At the judgment, God will allow sinners to reap the full result of their sin.

sin + God's allowing sin to have the effect it always would have had, had God not been preventing it = dead sinner.

sin + God's preventing sin to have the effect it always would have had, had God not been preventing it = alive sinner.

If that's the case, then we have:

judgment = God's allowing sin to have the effect it always would have had, had God not been preventing it

Does that sound right to you?

Tom, you still haven't explained what God actually does to prevent sin from killing sinners.

But by working backward it is possible to deduce what you seem reluctant to say.

Here's how: You say it is the revelation of truth during judgment that will cause sinners to suffer and to die. Therefore, you believe it is the withholding of truth that enables sinners to sin with impunity. But is it fair of God to judge someone on truth He withheld?