I'm not sure civilization is more refined -- more technological yes, but refined? I had the opportunity to visit some of the ancient sites of Greece and Rome and they had civilization that in many ways was more refined than are own.

I don't think severe judgments are the key to changing rebellious people. The fear of it might restain them, but the rebellious spirit would still be inside them.

As I said, human beings haven't really changed, and the spirit of the gladiator fights in the arena still survive in the boxing ring, but people in general are a little more conscious about human rights.


Yes, the idea was restraint by fear:

"The statutes and judgments given of God were good for the obedient. 'They should live in them.' But they were not good for the transgressor; for in the civil law given to Moses, punishment was to be inflicted on the transgressor, that others should be restrained by fear." {1SP 266.1}

But I think that although fear isn't the ideal motivator for someone to follow God, it has sometimes a place in leading the person to God, being later replaced by nobler motivators like love. Just look at Sinai - it was a terrifying experience.

So, why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? Are people, like Tom, correct in saying God ran the risk of being misunderstood, that He compromised until the time and their hearts were right to lead them to higher, holier ground (that is, to love and forgive sinners until they are obedient and submissive)?

Or, did God command capital punishment because it symbolizes the essence and nature of the final judgment (that is, God will execute justice and judgment by punishing and destroying the wicked)? People like Tom, on the other hand, believe sin, not God, is what will punish and kill the wicked.

1.I never said God compromised about anything.
2.In regards to the punishment of the wicked, I've never said that God will not punish the wicked, nor that sin, not God, is what will punish the wicked.

I do believe that suffering and death are the inevitable result of sin. Regarding punishment, I believe is plays out as described in GC 35-36:



I doubt I'm going to get involved in a conversation here, but if I see that positions I've expressed are being misstated, I may pop in to say something.

I'm glad you recognize the truth here, that God will punish sinners. Now...if only we could figure out how it is that God uses "kindness" to punish.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

God punishes according to the principles laid out in the quote I cited.

1.The Jews had forged their own fetters.
2.They had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance.
3.They but reaped the harvest which their own hands had sown. 4.They destroyed themselves.
5.They fell by their iniquity.
6.Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God.
7.It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.
8.By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them
9.We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy.
10.God's mercy and long-suffering holds in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one.
11.But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed.
12.God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression;
13.He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.
14.The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.
15.Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.

This outlines the principles involved. Notice that the last principle explicitly identifies the above principles as "punishment," saying that there is not example which serves as more decisive testimony of the certain punishment than the case of Jerusalem. That makes it a great case study!

Regarding kindness:



I think what happens is that many simply don't believe that sin and Satan can be defeated by the prevailing power of God's government. Not seeing how truth and love could possible overcome sin or Satan, it is thought that force and violence are necessary. The principles of the enemy are needed to defeat the enemy. Kindness, mercy and love are thought to be insufficient to succeed.

I disagree! I believe that love and truth are strong than sin and the devil, and these principles will overcome! It seems to me, the last chapter of "The Great Controversy" explains how this happens. As the truth is revealed, the wicked lose all desire to attack the city of God, and instead bow to Christ, recognizing God's righteousness, and that He has acted in accordance with the principles of His government (kindness, mercy and love!) throughout.

The chapter "It Is Finished" in "The Desire of Ages," also explains how the revelation of the truth, and the love of God, served to win the Great Controversy.

You speak from both sides of the mouth here. You say God punishes, but then turn and say He does not.


Indeed, but one is led to believe by your interpretation that this was no Divine act, merely a Satanic "justice."



Tom,

In my view it is God's love, mercy, and kindness -- and GRACE! -- which have earned Him the right, the privilege, the honor of cleansing the Universe from sin once and for all by destroying sin, sinners, and all traces of them, and restoring the repentant ones to righteousness.

This is what the cross was all about.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

If God made no compromise, does it mean you believe commanding people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death is perfectly consistent with His law and love?

If you've never said sin, not God, is what will punish and destroy the wicked during the final judgment, does it mean you believe God is the one who will punish and destroy them?

To the first question, "compromise" is rather pejorative. What Jesus said was that certain things were permitted because of the hardness of their hearts.

Regarding the second, I discussed in my response to GC how God punishes.

But it appeared to me you were discussing how God does not punish. In which of the 15 points in your list do you see God punishing?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.