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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12432
03/05/05 06:24 AM
03/05/05 06:24 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, please don't misunderstand me here. I'm not saying sin can kills us, but rather the shame and guilt associated with sin can rob us of life.
At least you're not blaming God for it! That's a start!
One wonders after 6,000 years and the death of Christ how much more evidence is necessary to believe that sin does indeed kill.
Here's something from Waggoner:
quote:
No one can read Gal.3:10 carefully and thoughtfully without seeing that the curse is transgression of the law. Disobedience to God's law is itself the curse; for "by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin." Rom.5:12. Sin has death wrapped up in it. Without sin death would be impossible, for "the sting of death is sin." 1Cor.15:56. (Glad Tidings, commenting on Gal. 3:13)
And from the Spirit of Prophesy:
quote:
It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every affliction was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner.
Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isa. 53:4, 3.
God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. (DA 471)
Satan is the author of sin and death. He seeks to cause people (and angels and other beings) to blame God for what he has done. But God is innocent! Innocent, innocent, innocent!
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12433
03/05/05 07:53 AM
03/05/05 07:53 AM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Deuteronomy 33:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Isaiah 46:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. NIV.
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.
Tom.
Is it your view that contradict EGW, thus contradict the bible or is EGW contradict the bible?
Isn’t it clear from the verses above that life and death is God creation? To choose between life and death is not only spoken to Israel but to Adam and Eve as well in Eden. To live they must eat the fruit of life and to die is eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Thanks to Satan lie and deception they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, and died.
Is life only that God created, and not death? Then why did Adam and Eve die?
1. Is it because of their sin?
2. Is it because of they were separated from God, the Source of life?
3. Is it because they have no longer access to the tree of life to eat it fruit?
4. Or is it because they have eaten the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, where in it, God has created the death, become a deadly fruit?
I choose the latest.
It could not be the first, because at that time sin is not imputed for there is no law, thus, die is not the result of sin. Death is the wages of sin, not the 1st death but the 2nd death.
It could not be the 2nd, because even the fallen angels was separated from God, they didn’t die till now.
It could not be the 3rd, because surely God will say that. Eating the fruit of life would prolong their life, does not eating them would make them die? If yes, then God had created in it not only life to sustain their life but also death. But God had said, the day you eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall surely die. This make clear that death is in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, which is God creation.
God said that he created evil. Does this statement make you look at God as a cruel and savage God? Why then? I didn’t see that way. What is evil and what is good? Adam and Eve when they were created knows nothing about this. If they continue their life in Eden without breaking God command, even evil is created, but there would be no evilness, for no one is exercising it. It means nothing. Good means nothing too for them, they live in love as a natural way of life. how could they knew what is good without knowing what is evil. How could they say they live in light without knowing what dark is?
So, God created life and death, peace and evil but doesn’t make him cruel and savage or a monster. It means nothing if no one exercise it and since they have no knowledge of what is good and what is evil, even life and death makes no sense to them. They have only a choice; to choose life or death.
Quote.
Satan is the author of sin and death. He seeks to cause people (and angels and other beings) to blame God for what he has done. But God is innocent! Innocent, innocent, innocent!
Unquote.
Satan is the author of sin and death would be the result. Death is the wages of his sin, and God who would execute it. This doesn’t make God evil and cruel, he is still innocent, it is a matter of choice. To choose between life and death, things he had created.
Nothing that has been made is not God creation, except sin, whose origin comes from Satan, a being that God had created.
In His love
James S
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12434
03/05/05 08:03 AM
03/05/05 08:03 AM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Can sin be destroyed by destroying sinner?
Surely yes! But doesn’t mean sin could not emerge in a sinless world. O sin is a choice, as long we still have a free will choice, we still might choose something against God, which is sin.
Therefore, creating man after the fall of Satan is a way out for God to annihilate sin forever. A means where he would have the legal right to abolish sin by destroying sinners without being blamed as cruel and savage. Something he could not do to Satan and his angels if he didn’t create Adam and Eve, knowing they would fall in sin and die, where their descendant must die too since they inherit his death body, and then saving them back to life for they didn’t ask to be born in sin and to die, showing his justice and righteousness, his love and mercy, otherwise, men could blame him for the unjust and unfair condition of men against Adam and Eve who were created in perfection, sinless and holy to live everlasting.
Therefore, life and death is his creation, through death he may secure a sinless world, by executing the death upon sinners.
In His love
James S.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12435
03/06/05 02:47 AM
03/06/05 02:47 AM
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James, I’m trying to understand what you are saying. Are you referring to the physical mechanism that causes death, or are you referring to what caused man to be subject to death—1st or 2nd death?
If the latter, I think the bible is clear that the reason death entered into our world—either death—is because of sin. Let me ask, if Adam and Eve would never have sinned, would death have come to them? If you answer yes, it seems we both have a very different understanding of scripture. If you answer no, then it seems obvious that their sin caused the whole mess.
You said sin is not imputed where there is no law, but The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” (Gen 2:16-17 NASB) THAT sounds like a pretty strong commandment to me, which the first couple eventually broke and thus, …just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (Rom 5:12 NASB)
As for the physical mechanism by which we die the first death, well, because of mortality, sometimes you’re the windshield and sometimes you’re the bug! As for the second death, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28 NASB)
Jeff
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12436
03/06/05 02:32 PM
03/06/05 02:32 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
After this has been made clear, God can destroy sin, which is what destroys sinners (not the other way around!)
Tom, sin destroys sinners in the sense that it leads to their destruction. However, when sinners are destroyed, automatically sin is eliminated from the universe, since sinners are the last stronghold of sin.
"The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven." {TA 205.2}
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12437
03/07/05 06:21 AM
03/07/05 06:21 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, sin destroys sinners in the sense that it leads to their destruction. However, when sinners are destroyed, automatically sin is eliminated from the universe, since sinners are the last stronghold of sin.
Sin originated in heaven where there was no sin and no sinners. The fact that this is the case is evidence that simply destroying sinners is not necessarily an effective way to destroy sin. In fact, the Spirit of Prophesy tells us that if God had allowed Satan and his hosts to have suffered the results of sin (which is death), the watching universe would not have understood that death was the inevitable result of sin, but instead would have interpreted their death as something which God was doing (rather than sin). Given that EGW has specifically revealed that this was *the very reason* that their death (Satan and his hosts) was delayed, it is most ironic that we would continue to blame God, when this is the very thing the delay was designed to prevent.
Sin is most decidedly *not* "automatically" eliminated from the universe when sinners are destroyed. This is the very point EGW is making in the chapter "It is Finished." For example:
quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Sin is defeated, not be power, but by love and truth. These are the principles of God's governemnt.
It is the death of Christ which defeats sin, and created the circumstance in which God may allow sin to result in that which it was always destined to result in -- death. Not because God arbitrarily executes, but because there is no life apart from God, and sin is by its very essence, separating the sinner from God:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. (DA 764)
What is is that causes the destruction of the wicked? It is the truth about God's character, the same thing which gives life to the rightesous:
quote:
The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12438
03/07/05 12:44 PM
03/07/05 12:44 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom,
That sin couldn't be destroyed at its inception is not in dispute. But after the whole universe is convinced of God's love and justice, the only way to destroy sin is by destroying sinners. Sin and sinners are identified. Sin is an attribute of sinners. Therefore, sinners are destroyed through sin (sin causes their destruction), and sin is destroyed through sinners (their destruction puts an end to sin).
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12439
03/07/05 06:13 PM
03/07/05 06:13 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
That sin couldn't be destroyed at its inception is not in dispute. But after the whole universe is convinced of God's love and justice, the only way to destroy sin is by destroying sinners. Sin and sinners are identified. Sin is an attribute of sinners. Therefore, sinners are destroyed through sin (sin causes their destruction), and sin is destroyed through sinners (their destruction puts an end to sin).
Sin couldn't be destroyed at the beginning because its destruction would have been misunderstood. Instead of seeing death as the inevitable result of sin, the destruction of Satan and his sympathisizers would have been seen as the result of an act of God's power. In order that sin could be seen for what it is, God allowed Christ to become sin. In Christ's death the hideousness of sin is seen. Because of His death, God can allow sin to cause the destruction it was always destined to cause without this destruction being misunderstood as something He was doing.
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)
The glory of God is His character. Sin cannot abide with God -- selfishness cannot stand in the presence of self-sacrificing love. This principle is explained here:
quote:
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? ...A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
Sin is destroyed by light, the light of the of the glory of God, or, using other words, the truth of God's character.
quote:
God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.
Sin is the enemy which destroys. God is seeking to warn us of its horrendous nature and power. It will surely cause our death. God would deliver us from it.
quote:
We should not try to lessen our guilt by excusing sin. We must accept God's estimate of sin, and that is heavy indeed. Calvary alone can reveal the terrible enormity of sin. If we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us.
Sin brings condemnation and guilt with it. This is more than enough to kill us. It killed Christ.
If we do not understand the sinfulness of sin -- its horrendous power -- we are in danger of seeing things from the wrong perspective. Rather than seeing God as one who is warning us from it and who seeks to deliver us from it, we will be tempted to view Him in a false light, as one who says, "Do what I tell you, or I will destroy you." We do great damage to our own souls if we view God in this light.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12440
03/07/05 09:49 PM
03/07/05 09:49 PM
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Let me respond to the last post by asking the following question:
How does sin cast the unrepentant sinner into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed, consumed, etc. there?
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12441
03/07/05 11:38 PM
03/07/05 11:38 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them....The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 107, 108)
This is talking about the lake of fire, right?
quote:
This [the destruction of the wicked] is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
This is too, isn't it?
Also the quote from GC 541 was discussing the same thing. I'll include it here for completeness:
quote:
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God
Page 542
executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation
Page 543
were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
I quoted this last one at length because it answers the question completely. The exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves. The destruction of the wicked involves God's kindness, mercy and love, just as everything else God does reflects these qualities.
The light of the glory of God (that is, the truth about His character) is what destroys the wicked. This is because they have chosen to form characters out of harmony with God's character.
The inevitable result of sin is death. Christ's death shows this to be the case.
Remember that EGW points out several times that Christ's death was due to the same cause as the death of the wicked -- mental anguish caused by the separation which sin brings. If we would understand the destruction of the wicked, we have but to study the death of Christ. All the questions of the Great Controversy are answered by Jesus Christ.
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