Mike: Tom, I agree that sin and sinners naturally burn up in the presence of God's glory, but I also believe the Bible and the SOP make it clear that God will use literal fire and brimstone to first punish and then to destroy sinners. Apparently we are never going to agree on this issue until after it is fulfilled.

Tom: If sinners have naturally burned up in the presence of God's glory, aren't they all gone? How can God first punish and destroy them if they've been destroyed? Or maybe you mean God withholds His presence from them until after they've been punished and destroyed, and then destroys them? Or maybe the literal fire only punished, but doesn't destroy?

Did you follow the point I made (I've made it a couple of time) that it makes no sense to say that God allowed Satan and his sympathizers' exisitence to continue because if He allowed their existence to end it would not be seen that this was the inevitable result of sin?

What did you think of Fifield's comments?

On your other question, I never did say.

EW 218
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death-- a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 218.1}

1SG 193
But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased. {1SG 193.1}

GC 542-544
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them…. {GC 542.2}

Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable…. {GC 543.1}

In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom…. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}

…. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}

NOTE: death and punishment are clearly two different aspects.

GC 672, 673
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Kevin, I agree they died the first death. But that wasn’t the essence of my question.

Tom, I didn’t mean to imply that sin and sinners burn up in the presence of God’s glory before they are cast into the lake of fire. I meant that it can happen, but he chooses rather to punish and destroy them using literal fire from above and from beneath. God did not punish and destroy the fallen angels, in the fires reserved for them, the moment they rebelled, because it would not have made sense to the loyal angels at that time. Fifield’s comments were vague. Are you planning to answer the other questions?

[ January 01, 2005, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]

These come from writings in for example Ugaric and other ancient sites that date to about the time and earlier than Abraham. You should be able to find different translations in a good sized libarary.

"I meant that it can happen, but he chooses rather to punish and destroy them using literal fire from above and from beneath."

So is this saying that God doesn't destroy sinners by His glory?

quote:

---

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

---

This quote is talking about specifically about the destruction of Satan and his followers. It says here that the glory of God will destroy them. This isn't saying that is "can" happen, but that it will.

Regarding the other questions, I think we have enough to consider for the time being.

Then how do we reconcile the following inspired insights? Shouldn't we interpret obscure or difficult passages in the context and weight of overwhelming evidence? I am beginning to believe that the glory of God is symbolic of fire and brimstone.

EW 218
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death-- a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 218.1}

1SG 193
But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased. {1SG 193.1}

GC 542-544
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them…. {GC 542.2}

NOTE: they would welcome destruction, which seems to imply it isn't caused by simply being in the presence of God's glory.

Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable…. {GC 543.1}

In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom…. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3}

…. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}

NOTE: death and punishment are not one and same thing. On the contrary, death is the means by which the punishment is ended.

GC 672, 673
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

"Kevin, what I meant was that stuff on Baal etc developed well before the Jews and Christianity. That seems a bit far fetched."

It's not far-fetched. I studied the same things when I studied theology and at the seminary. Much of what was written in Scriptures just sails right over our heads. It would be as if God wrote things using cars and computers as analogies, and some culture came along aftwards where these things didn't exist.

God did such a wonderful job with the Bible that we can understand much of it, even with our cultural obtuseness, but so much of what is in Scriptures would have been just obvious to whoever heard it at the time it was written, the meaning of which escapes us. The whole concept of the universe was much different for the Hebrews (and contemporary cultures) than it is for us.

If the glory of God consumes sinners, like fire consumes flesh, then why didn't the COI or Moses burn up when God revealed His glory? Instead of becoming charcoal, Moses glowed in glory.

Exodus
16:10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

Exodus
24:16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD [was] like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
24:18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.

Exodus
33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.
33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, [there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Exodus
34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].
34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.
34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.